Is this Master Too Loud? (LUFS/Youleanmeter)

[Craig Anderton]

On 7/21/2021 at 10:38 AM, Marcello said:

should I make a different master version for each bloody online platform? Seriously? Since I'm paying for each master.

I didn't see this addressed specifically in the thread, but when a streaming service says its target is -14 LUFS, that doesn't mean your master has to measure -14 LUFS. It can be whatever you want, and the streaming service will turn it down to meet their target LUFS level. Sometimes you want to master "hot" to get a certain character, and that character will be preserved when the song is turned down.

One of the main reasons to meet a streaming services specs is because they often transcode to compressed audio. Meeting their specs will usually guarantee the least amount of distortion and other artifacts when the music is compressed. However, for the best transcoding performance, what's more important than meeting the LUFS spec is meeting the True Peak spec, which is typically -1 or -2 dB.

The best aspect for me about a streaming service's spec is that it means I can master something like an acoustic or jazz album to -14 LUFS, which is a decent amount of dynamic range, and it won't sound super-soft compared to everything else. (BTW some streaming services will turn up music below -14 LUFS, but others don't. So when artistically possible, I make sure a master doesn't go below -14 LUFS.)

[Will.]

And I rest my case on what Craig Anderton said. 

[Marcello]

2 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

I didn't see this addressed specifically in the thread, but when a streaming service says its target is -14 LUFS, that doesn't mean your master has to measure -14 LUFS. It can be whatever you want, and the streaming service will turn it down to meet their target LUFS level. Sometimes you want to master "hot" to get a certain character, and that character will be preserved when the song is turned down.

One of the main reasons to meet a streaming services specs is because they often transcode to compressed audio. Meeting their specs will usually guarantee the least amount of distortion and other artifacts when the music is compressed. However, for the best transcoding performance, what's more important than meeting the LUFS spec is meeting the True Peak spec, which is typically -1 or -2 dB.

The best aspect for me about a streaming service's spec is that it means I can master something like an acoustic or jazz album to -14 LUFS, which is a decent amount of dynamic range, and it won't sound super-soft compared to everything else. (BTW some streaming services will turn up music below -14 LUFS, but others don't. So when artistically possible, I make sure a master doesn't go below -14 LUFS.)

The thing is, I'm using a reference track from Mogwai, now I have downloaded a FLAC version of the song, I suppose is the high quality one almost like a WAV.

I compared the volume of this FLAC song with the one on their Spotify, it's exactly the same bloody volume, which is quite high (-6 LUFS integrated), so someone is taking a ***** me here, unless SPotify allows you to pay extra to have -6 LUFS instead of -14

[Byron Dickens]

3 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

And I rest my case on what Craig Anderton said. 

I won't discount the possibility that I am conflating "high pass" and "shelving."

 

I do know that when recording live instruments I get a fair amount of low end rumbling stuff that is really nothing but noise and mud and that drastically cutting it clears things up tremendously.

Edited July 31, 2021 by bdickens

[Marcello]

3 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

And I rest my case on what Craig Anderton said. 

I agree with him,  maybe I'm starting to understand now, basically I should work on the mix rather than fixing this on the master.

I should manage to increase the volume of the instruments, like the drums which are peaking, without increasing the DBs.

For instance I placed a limiter on the drums bus, and I increased the threshold and reduced the gain, result: the drums sounds louder but didn't increase in DBs.

But still for me the master is too low, so is there any other plugin I can use for this purpose?  Craig suggested EQ automation, any other? like a saturator maybe? a gain plugin?

[Will.]

19 minutes ago, Marcello said:

I agree with him,  maybe I'm starting to understand now, basically I should work on the mix rather than fixing this on the master.

Bingo! Now you're getting the hang of things. 

But the big question is: How do you understand the K-system? 

[Byron Dickens]

14 minutes ago, Marcello said:

I agree with him,  maybe I'm starting to understand now, basically I should work on the mix rather than fixing this on the master.

What we have all been saying.

 

15 minutes ago, Marcello said:

But still for me the master is too low, so is there any other plugin I can use for this purpose?  Craig suggested EQ automation, any other? like a saturator maybe? a gain plugin?

You really ought to develop your skills - and your ears - instead of searching for more magic plug-ins.

 

Geoff Emerick and George Martin didn't need all that crap. Eddie Kramer didn't need all that crap. Glynn Johns don't need all that crap.

[Marcello]

3 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Bingo! Now you're getting the hang of things. 

But the big question is: How do you understand the K-system? 

Bloody hell guys I think I made it I have placed this saturation plugin  with one nob on my drums bus and now it sound much louder without taking too many DBs.  A practical solution also for you if might have the same issue.

https://www.softube.com/saturationknob?gclid=Cj0KCQjw6ZOIBhDdARIsAMf8YyFslTBECLawYGcU2KUyfDKEoeyWgyaNVTXyF18FNm_JwiBh9cmJmEUaAhF5EALw_wcB

[Will.]

35 minutes ago, Marcello said:

Bloody hell guys I think I made it I have placed this saturation plugin  with one nob on my drums bus and now it sound much louder without taking too many DBs.  A practical solution also for you if might have the same issue.

https://www.softube.com/saturationknob?gclid=Cj0KCQjw6ZOIBhDdARIsAMf8YyFslTBECLawYGcU2KUyfDKEoeyWgyaNVTXyF18FNm_JwiBh9cmJmEUaAhF5EALw_wcB

Good for you! Right attitude you're having with this. Most guy's would have given up by now.

Do you know that this is build into the prochannel? lol.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Will_Kaydo

[Marcello]

8 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Good for you! Right attitude you're having with this. Most guy's would have given up by now.

Do you know that this is build into the prochannel? lol.

Shite! I didn't know! indeed I installed it with iLok LOL. I have removed it now and used the one embedded. Thanks

Edited August 1, 2021 by Marcello

[Marcello]

9 hours ago, Marcello said:

Bloody hell guys I think I made it I have placed this saturation plugin  with one nob on my drums bus and now it sound much louder without taking too many DBs.  A practical solution also for you if might have the same issue.

https://www.softube.com/saturationknob?gclid=Cj0KCQjw6ZOIBhDdARIsAMf8YyFslTBECLawYGcU2KUyfDKEoeyWgyaNVTXyF18FNm_JwiBh9cmJmEUaAhF5EALw_wcB

Does anyone know any free plugin for distortion listening?

like Soundwaves Reveal plugin but that costs a lot.

You place it in the master bus and it will reveal any distortion caused by the limiter pushed too much, that otherwise you might not hear. For those like me who still have to develop the ears

[Will.]

35 minutes ago, Marcello said:

Does anyone know any free plugin for distortion listening?

like Soundwaves Reveal plugin but that costs a lot.

You place it in the master bus and it will reveal any distortion caused by the limiter pushed too much, that otherwise you might not hear. For those like me who still have to develop the ears

Depends for what you looking? For guitars or vocals? 

 

This one is a must have. Click here.

And these serve different purpose Click here 2 Fuzz plus 3 is my personal favorite.

[Marcello]

1 hour ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Depends for what you looking? For guitars or vocals? 

 

This one is a must have. Click here.

And these serve different purpose Click here 2 Fuzz plus 3 is my personal favorite.

No I meant some analyzer, nevermind.

I have compared my master with the reference track I'm using (FLAC version),  I start understanding the problem here, look at the loudest part of the reference track (on TOP) and look at my mastered track (below). This is why is doesn't get loud enough like the reference track, do you see those spikes? peaks? Those are the snare and kick mostly, based on what you see what do you suggest?   I think I have compressed the drums enough, if I push the limiter more the snare basically disappears compared to the rest, it drawns below the other things. 

What would you suggest?

 

[Will.]

34 minutes ago, Marcello said:

No I meant some analyzer, nevermind.

I have compared my master with the reference track I'm using (FLAC version),  I start understanding the problem here, look at the loudest part of the reference track (on TOP) and look at my mastered track (below). This is why is doesn't get loud enough like the reference track, do you see those spikes? peaks? Those are the snare and kick mostly, based on what you see what do you suggest?   I think I have compressed the drums enough, if I push the limiter more the snare basically disappears compared to the rest, it drawns below the other things. 

What would you suggest?

 

There's no real answer to how loud a master should be. The general rule is simple if it sounds good and loud enough for you - all is okay. 

That being said: It helps to know what your aim was in levels with peak and gain while you were mixing. Are you looking at the peak level or the RMS level. Did certain drums or instruments used needed a gain and volume reduction or just its peak levels? The same principle that applies to EQ'ing, compression and limiting should be done with your levels too. "If its not needed - WHY?" 

Though, that's not a bad level. Don't rely too much on what is shown to you in a waveform. You just need to make sure it doesn't clip or distort and that you have a decent balance to it. If it sounds good on other devices - you've done a great job! That's how it is. 

There's no such thing as a perfect mix or master. Every monitor sounds different. Every environment a song was recorded, mix and mastered in comes with is own flaws. So dont stress to much on how it should look like. ☺

Great job! ?

Edited August 1, 2021 by Will_Kaydo

[Will.]

54 minutes ago, Marcello said:

Dont be discouraged by it. It's a learning curve. By the looks of it ,you're on the right track. ☺ 

TIP: Take this project and store it for a few days and start with a new project. It doesn't have to be a full project. Do a demo test with 8 or 10 tracks. 6 Drum tracks, 2 guitar melodies and try to find the levels that work for you without mixing it, that feels right and master that. Practice this on 3 demo's and once you're satisfied with the master level from these, do some demo mixing and keep and eye on youlean meter on every tweak you do on every thing and take mental notes. 

Return back to the current project create a copy of it and start the process over with the steps you've gotten from you practice runs. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Will_Kaydo

[Craig Anderton]

19 hours ago, Marcello said:

I compared the volume of this FLAC song with the one on their Spotify, it's exactly the same bloody volume, which is quite high (-6 LUFS integrated), so someone is taking a ***** me here, unless SPotify allows you to pay extra to have -6 LUFS instead of -14

Spotify  has an option to remove their loudness normalization process. I'm not sure, but I think it's available only to subscribers. Don't know if it's a default or not.

[Glenn Stanton]

if your snare is disappearing, it may be a case of frequency masking - what instrument when we squash the range is now the dominate frequency which is causing the compression to trigger? for example, if your guitar is substantially the same frequency as the snare resonance, you may find the guitars constant audio versus the snare transient is causing the compression (or limiting) to squash everything and the snare transient gets lost. side chaining a dynamic EQ or compressor to lower the volume slightly on the offending instrument (assuming you don't want full time EQ cuts or volume reduction) could be enough to duck the guitar and let the snare transient though. sometimes a multiband compressor can help. or as Will pointed out a few posts back, multiple things may be needed to get the balance right.

in some old school mixing, there are the attempt to get 1 thing at a time to come through at the top. be it vocal, solo instrument, or band. imagine everything as serial notes and only 1 makes it to the top or is played (some jazz genres are like this) at a time. this all will be at the right level at the right time. much harder than it sounds ? 

[Will.]

10 hours ago, Marcello said:

No I meant some analyzer, nevermind.

I have compared my master with the reference track I'm using (FLAC version),  I start understanding the problem here, look at the loudest part of the reference track (on TOP) and look at my mastered track (below). This is why is doesn't get loud enough like the reference track, do you see those spikes? peaks? Those are the snare and kick mostly, based on what you see what do you suggest?   I think I have compressed the drums enough, if I push the limiter more the snare basically disappears compared to the rest, it drawns below the other things. 

What would you suggest?

 

If you take in everything that was said to you here - you can have healthy Crest levels for any platform too. 

I just finished this project for one of my clients. Great Pop Rock song. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Will_Kaydo

[John Vere]

The OP has started a whole new thread on same topic. Have any of you downloaded and listened and looked at the song in question. If you do you'll see and hear what  is wrong.  This goes way back to a thread by Marcello a while back about panning guitars where he was struggling with that issue. 

There is a lot of real good tips and advice in all of these threads due to answers from a lot of very knowledgeable forum members. He's super lucky to have top quality answers as this is not always the case on the internet.  I'm not too sure he has followed through with much of what has been said or he wouldn't need to start another thread.

Here is my observations of this project. 

 He is using a reference track that is defiantly a casualty of the loudness wars. If you want to join the loudness wars then you better be an experienced fighter. 

The guitars are hard panned and at the 2/3 mark are drowning out all other instruments. 

It's a tricky composition because it has a wide dynamic range over the length of the song. It has a quiet intro and it builds. Bit said way back at the beginning that this was an issue. 

His solution seems to be to keep trying to turn things up instead of ,, ya, we all know this answer all to well. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by John Vere

[Marcello]

41 minutes ago, John Vere said:

The OP has started a whole new thread on same topic. Have any of you downloaded and listened and looked at the song in question. If you do you'll see and hear what  is wrong.  This goes way back to a thread by Marcello a while back about panning guitars where he was struggling with that issue. 

There is a lot of real good tips and advice in all of these threads due to answers from a lot of very knowledgeable forum members. He's super lucky to have top quality answers as this is not always the case on the internet.  I'm not too sure he has followed through with much of what has been said or he wouldn't need to start another thread.

Here is my observations of this project. 

 He is using a reference track that is defiantly a casualty of the loudness wars. If you want to join the loudness wars then you better be an experienced fighter. 

The guitars are hard panned and at the 2/3 mark are drowning out all other instruments. 

It's a tricky composition because it has a wide dynamic range over the length of the song. It has a quiet intro and it builds. Bit said way back at the beginning that this was an issue. 

His solution seems to be to keep trying to turn things up instead of ,, ya, we all know this answer all to well. 

Yea I did take advantage of precious advises thanks, indeed I think I improved it a bit. I will keep working on it and try with different references.