Is Cakewalk A Songwriting Platform?

[DallasSteve]

I was researching old threads about how to delete a section of a song in Cakewalk.  I came across this interesting thread that turned into a discussion of whether Cakewalk is a songwriting platform.  I hadn't considered that semi-philosophical question.  I thought all DAWs did the same thing, just in different ways.  In this thread from the archived Cakewalk forum the member BASSIC declares: "Sonar is not designed for song writing; it is a very good sequencing program for making the sound for pre-written material".  Has Cakewalk changed much from this 2017 thread?  Do users tend to view it as a songwriting platform or not?

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Removing-a-section-of-a-song-m3554348.aspx

[Lord Tim]

Yeah, Ripple Edit is definitely a HUGE step up from the old Delete Hole method, which was really hit and miss, especially if you had automation in buss tracks. The new Tempo Track is another really nice improvement too, because it's visually right above your project and you can do much finer control of gradual changes than you could do in the old Tempo View.

Additionally to that, setting up Workspaces and Screensets are really handy for focussing your workflow towards writing rather than editing or mixing, there's Articulation tracks now for easily transforming the sound of instruments, and a lot of new features in the Piano Roll View too.

There's definitely stuff to be done yet in some areas of course, like in all DAWs - every one has strengths and weaknesses - but the last few years has seen a LOT of improvements since the SONAR days in regards to songwriting and arranging.

[Lord Tim]

I've written hundreds of songs on SONAR/Cakewalk over the years so I'd say yes, but in regards to that thread, we've since gained Arranger Tracks which allow you to move or delete sections of your song around, audition different structures on the fly and keep your project organised.

About the only thing some people would say is missing as far as a writing tool goes is a chord track. I don't miss that myself, personally, but I can see why a lot of people request it. Otherwise, it's a pretty fully rounded writing tool.

[John Vere]

I think the other important tool missing is a proper lyric track. It would be nice to have it tied to the arranger track somehow as a second lane at the top.  

[DallasSteve]

21 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

I've written hundreds of songs on SONAR/Cakewalk over the years so I'd say yes, but in regards to that thread, we've since gained Arranger Tracks which allow you to move or delete sections of your song around, audition different structures on the fly and keep your project organised.

About the only thing some people would say is missing as far as a writing tool goes is a chord track. I don't miss that myself, personally, but I can see why a lot of people request it. Otherwise, it's a pretty fully rounded writing tool.

Thanks.  I did not know about Arranger Tracks.  I will check that out.  (I also learned about Ripple Edit today, which looks like it might help)

[Starship Krupa]

Yes, I mean, it's a tool I use for writing songs, certainly. I'm not sure what a "platform" would be. Band-In-Box, maybe?

I work out what chords I want to use in my songs by playing them on keyboard or guitar. I guess my material is "pre-written" in that sense. I use Cakewalk as an arrangement tool, though, moving sections around, adding, etc. To me, it's a recording, note entry, and editing platform, and as such, useful when writing songs.

I started using Cakewalk in 2018 and I've deleted measures and dragged the clips together to shorten things, probably doing it like Craig Anderton suggests in that thread. I've also used Arranger Sections. But my songs rarely get above 20 tracks, usually more like 12-16. The Arranger Track has been around for some time now and I think it's probably the answer to that feller's question about how to cut a section of a song out with the least disruption.

For people who like to compose using notation, I understand that Cakewalk has some shortcomings, when I go that route, I do it Finale Notepad and export/import MIDI.

Someone who was clamoring for a chord track described it and I understood it but now I've forgotten what one does, so it probably isn't an important thing to me. They make substitutions and transposition easier? I dunno.

[Gatters]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread as I recently noticed this headline on the Cakewalk main web page:
 

Compose

Easily compose complete songs and performances with creative songwriting tools and instruments

https://www.bandlab.com/products/cakewalk

 

There were no further details or links to what these songwriting tools actually are, hence I did some searching and found this thread.  In my head I was imagining something akin to Ableton's session view or maybe something like a chord-sequence generator?  I don't know, but it seems a bit misleading to trumpet "creating songwriting tools" like this without detailing what they are.   I suspect this is just pure marketing, and no tools actually exist (beyond standard DAW stuff) to warrant the headline...

[John Vere]

You either know how to write songs or you want a computer to write your songs. 

[slartabartfast]

Is the piano a songwriting tool, or is it just a device for playing pre-written material.

How were people able to write songs prior to the invention of the computer?

Is it possible to write songs with nothing but a pencil and paper?

Can a musical and linguistic illiterate compose a song?

Is it just philosophy?

 

[John Vere]

[Starship Krupa]

On 1/5/2022 at 7:19 AM, Gatters said:

it seems a bit misleading to trumpet "creating songwriting tools" like this without detailing what they are.   I suspect this is just pure marketing, and no tools actually exist (beyond standard DAW stuff) to warrant the headline.

Cakewalk has a wide variety of features. Some of them may be used in the process of writing songs.

Cakewalk has tools with similar functionality to Ableton's Session View. The Track View is where you work with audio and MIDI clips and loops, and if you want to set up a grid where you can launch them in an improvised performance, Matrix View lets you do that. How much anyone considers either of those a "songwriting tool" depends on their definition of the term.

If you want to see people using Cakewalk in their compositional process, search "making beats with Cakewalk" or similar on YouTube.

I compose songs using mostly Cakewalk's Track View and Piano Roll and a MIDI controller. If you follow the Bandcamp link in my signature, you can listen to one that was composed, edited, mixed and mastered using nothing but Cakewalk and 3rd-party plug-in synths and effects. The song is built around a machine-generated arpeggio. Is an arpeggiator a "songwriting tool?" It is for me and a lot of other electronic music composers. Some people who write songs every day don't even know what one does. Cakewalk has one built in.

Cakewalk does not have a chord sequence generator. Some other DAW's do, some others don't. Maybe Cakewalk will at some point, but if you want software that can help you generate chord sequences, right now that has to come from elsewhere.

If you want to assemble a song from loops and one-hits, I've found Cakewalk to be great for doing that. I've taken at least one online electronic music production class where the instructor used Ableton Live! and I was able to follow right along using Cakewalk the same way he was using Ableton. If someone asked me to recommend the top software for that kind of workflow, no question, it's Ableton Live!, but Cakewalk will do most of what it does and plenty of things that it doesn't do.

The stuff ain't perfect, no software is. It's not the best one for every scenario for every user, no DAW is. But this is the first time I've seen someone complaining that BandLab's web description of it is somehow "misleading."

If you're concerned that BandLab's ad copy is lying about or overstating the product's features, please list other "songwriting tools" that you would expect a program that was "trumpeting" them to have, and we can tell you whether Cakewalk has them.

As for "detailing what they are," BandLab's readily-available material describing Cakewalk includes detailed feature lists, a complete online manual, the 1700 page Reference Guide and an active forum with people discussing how they use it and what for, including things they don't like about it. The entire program is licensed so that you can "demo" every last feature for as long as you want without investing a penny. Perhaps you can suggest ways that they could be more up front?

As for whether it's "pure marketing?" That is, actually a good way to put it. Words on a screen (or paper or verbally) describing the features and potential uses of a product is pure marketing, about as pure as it gets. From the first time someone wanted to trade rope for wheat, they probably had to suggest the uses that the rope might have for the person with the wheat. Rope is used for many things. It's a yachting tool, a security tool, and a camping tool, for instance. You should take a length of rope when you go camping, but you need other things to go along with it (tent, sleeping bag). You usually wouldn't want to go camping with just rope but if you did, it will go way better than if you didn't have any.

[Gatters]

Firstly I'm not complaining about anything, and I certainly don't expect or want a SW tool that will write songs for me.  I was simply intrigued by the fact that "creative songwriting tools" is essentially the first headline feature listed on the main page, which made me think "ooh, tell me more, is there something here that can let me improvise and throw ideas into a sandpit environment before deciding on an arrangement, like Ableton?"  Scrolling further down that page all you see is instruments, effects, tech specs, etc but not much about workflow, and no links to demo videos or any more detailed info. 

Maybe "misleading" was the wrong word. "Not-leading" is more like it - ie the description didn't lead to any tangible information that would be useful, particularly for somebody researching different DAWs to get an idea of the key features of each one.  Look at any other DAW website and you can pretty quickly get an idea of what they offer and how specific features work without having to dive into the user forums.

Anyway, thanks for the pointers above - I will look into them all.  I'm at a point where I'm contemplating going down the Ableton route, so it'd be good to see how Cakewalk holds up vs the Live workflow.  

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Gatters
Punctuation typo

[57Gregy]

There is also the new Arranger track which allows you to, um, arrange your clips into a song. Move things around, try different arrangements, etc. 
I still write most of my songs on the guitar or piano, so the arrangement is mostly finished before I start recording. That doesn't stop me from changing it after recording, though.

[Lord Tim]

I mean, all of those things are songwriting tools. Could you write songs without the Arranger track? Or Tempo track, Articulation track, most of the editing tools, etc? Of course you could. But it's easier when you have them there as aids.

Do other DAWs have some or all of these tools? Sure. But this is a dot-point list of stuff presented in a way to show off the items in the best possible light. I don't think you'll find any app out there with their blurb going "yeah so like we have the same sort of crap you'll find in other comparable apps" - their marketing guy would be looking for work faster than the speed of the editing tools we got. ?

I think it's a pretty comprehensive suite of songwriting tools overall. Definitely stuff that can be added but I don't think the blurb is misleading at all.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Lord Tim

[Starship Krupa]

On 1/7/2022 at 5:29 AM, Gatters said:

"ooh, tell me more, is there something here that can let me improvise and throw ideas into a sandpit environment before deciding on an arrangement, like Ableton?"

Definitely check out Matrix view, then.

But as with any other tool if its type in any DAW, it's a "best effort at giving our users an Ableton-like workflow." If you've messed around with Ableton Live! and were inspired by it, really, that's the one to go with. I think the current issue of Computer Music comes with a license for Ableton Live! Lite and extensive tutorials on how to use it. I have Live! Lite and haven't gotten into it much, maybe because I'm so used to the more linear workflow. I haven't tried everything, but Ableton own the "create from loops and phrases" style of music making. Maybe FL Studio, but I only know of it by reputation.

Due to the way they've evolved, every DAW has a central focus, plus other features that they've incorporated. For Ableton, the focus is the Ableton-style workflow, but by popular demand, they added tools for recording and comping and MIDI editing. Cakewalk and Cubase started as MIDI sequencers and quickly added audio recording once the hardware made it feasible. Pro Tools was early out of the gate with audio recording and MIDI came a bit later. So it's a matter of what's most important to you. Go for one of the ones with an audio/MIDI focus if you want that, or if you're more "sandbox" oriented, Ableton or FL Studio.

The latest issue of Computer Music comes with a license for Ableton Live! Lite and has a bunch of tutorials for it, so even if you have zero budget for a DAW, you're good to go. And getting to know multiple DAW's is a very good idea. There's synergy with Live! Lite and Cakewalk, you can ReWire them together, take stems out of Live! and do your final mixdowns with Cakewalk, whatever.

Then come back and tell us how it goes and what features you like best!