Panning Law

[marcL]

I have been always at war with the panning logic! Lately it caught my eye when I was panning a mono wave clip a tiny bit and it suddenly clipped, although I knew that the wave file did not (even if it was a bit too hot)! First I thought there is something wrong in CbB, but then I realized that it was the panning logic. When I panned back to center the gain was okay.

But I wonder whether it is good like that? How was it with a hardware mixer? I can't remember! Thus my question: Does anybody know how is the panning logic in a hardware mixer compared to a DAW? Does it also suddenly boost the signal if you just pan a little bit?

[John Vere]

https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR X2&language=3&help=Playback.27.html
 

interesting question. I’ve never played with these settings as like you I would assume it works like a hardware mixer but I guess with digital we should not assume anything 

As you can read in the documentation the default is a 3db boost when panned 

Edited July 6, 2021 by John Vere

[Glenn Stanton]

i think it depends on the HW mixer - some taper off on a L-R move, some attempt to keep same level (which might raise levels), and some raise levels as you move to L-R. here's an example:  a 1604 Mackie mixer uses "constant power" law - probably RMS 0db (which is probably fairly common in older analog mixers). i generally stick with the 0db sin/cos constant power setting in CbB.

 

 

[Hidden Symmetry]

Here's an article from Craig Anderton on Noel's blog.

http://www.noelborthwick.com/cakewalk/2014/11/19/panning-laws/

Edited July 6, 2021 by Hidden Symmetry

[John Vere]

I guess in the long run we are using our ears to mix as well keeping an eye on the meter to make sure we are within safe levels to avoid peaks. 
Panning in a way is sort of like applying an effect in the way it can alter your mix. 
So this is important to understand for sure. I just added it to my other list of 1,000 things to remember when mixing audio 

Edited July 6, 2021 by John Vere

[marcL]

11 hours ago, John Vere said:

I guess in the long run we are using our ears to mix as well keeping an eye on the meter to make sure we are within safe levels to avoid peaks. 
Panning in a way is sort of like applying an effect in the way it can alter your mix. 
So this is important to understand for sure. I just added it to my other list of 1,000 things to remember when mixing audio 

The only issues I see:

1. gain-staging maybe affected
2. panning a mono track may always require to adjust its volume
3. the mono mix maybe affected and has to be reviewed

Finally I agree that we are using our ears to mix, but I fear that I miss some of the issues above. I must admit that in the past I did not care about pan law (especially in the hardware time). I will surely do some tests to find the pan low that suits me best!

By the way I noticed that CbB does not support -4.5 center panning law that is quite common in other Daws!

[Will.]

21 hours ago, marled said:

I have been always at war with the panning logic! Lately it caught my eye when I was panning a mono wave clip a tiny bit and it suddenly clipped, although I knew that the wave file did not (even if it was a bit too hot)! First I thought there is something wrong in CbB, but then I realized that it was the panning logic. When I panned back to center the gain was okay.

But I wonder whether it is good like that? How was it with a hardware mixer? I can't remember! Thus my question: Does anybody know how is the panning logic in a hardware mixer compared to a DAW? Does it also suddenly boost the signal if you just pan a little bit?

Interesting topic. The Pan Law and Pan Rule discussion can be confusing indeed. What you need to understand is - like Monitors: Each mixer, sounded | and | was/is build "differently" from Vendor-to-Vendor - so each one had their own law to it. After all: at the end of the day, it comes down to what works best for you - SERIOUSLY! So, understanding this will help. 

This link attached will help you a lot. Before you read though, make sure your Pan Law Compact Mode is set to FALSE under Audio Tab in Configuration File| and | that you have "0db Center, balance control" in Driver Settings. This will keep your loudness constant in both Left and Right channels in the stereo field. 

Read here: Great article.

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Will_Kaydo

[Glenn Stanton]

and if you're interested in surround panning:

http://dafx2018.web.ua.pt/papers/DAFx2018_paper_47.pdf

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/marlonschumacher/wp-content/uploads/IMWI/literature/Spat1/Craven-Continuous_surround_panning_for_5-speaker_reproduction.pdf

and if you're using timing delays to alter apparent depth of the instruments in a stereo or surround field, things start to get complex ? 

[bitflipper]

Bottom line first: pick a pan law and stick with it.

It almost doesn't matter which one you pick, because you'll quickly become accustomed to it and hopefully never think about it again. Stick with just the one pick, though, because the pan law is global, and changing it will mess with any previous projects you revisit. And of course, never change it mid-project unless you want to restart the mix from square one.

As to which one is "best", most intuitive or most practical, that's been debated since the feature was first introduced in the 60's. Some prefer -3dB, some -6dB, with reasonable technical arguments for both. SSL introduced -4.5dB, not because it's better than those but merely as a compromise between them (conventional hardware consoles' pan laws are not selectable like in a DAW). The fact that it's not offered in CbB shouldn't trouble anyone in the slightest. 

Pan laws not only differ in whether they use 3, 4.5 or 6 decibels, but whether they achieve that compensation by lowering the center or by raising the sides. IOW, you can keep the volume steady by adding 3dB at the extreme left and right positions, or by lowering the center by 3dB. The latter helps avoid the effect described in the OP, wherein a track unexpectedly clips just from being panned. Unfortunately, Cakewalk's default option, "0dB, sin/cos taper, constant power" suffers from this potential problem because it raises the sides rather than lowering the center. 

 

 

[Craig Anderton]

I think pan laws are one of the main reasons why people conclude that DAWs sound different, because they exported the same file from two different DAWs, and they didn't null.

I guess you could always just do LCR mixing and not have to think about it

[John Vere]

The kind of music I mix it’s really only the guitar tracks that will be mono and panned. Everything else is either stereo ( VST) or dead centre. ( vocals, Bass) So I guess it’s never been an issue for me. But I like the idea of it NOT boosting when panned than it boosting +3. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by John Vere

[marcL]

15 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Bottom line first: pick a pan law and stick with it.

It almost doesn't matter which one you pick, because you'll quickly become accustomed to it and hopefully never think about it again. Stick with just the one pick, though, because the pan law is global, and changing it will mess with any previous projects you revisit. And of course, never change it mid-project unless you want to restart the mix from square one.

Definitely for CbB/Sonar! But in other DAWs it maybe different, e.g. in Reaper the pan law is bound to the project! This is clever IMHO, because on one hand you can choose your preferred pan law in your project template(s), but you do not have problems if you revise older projects or have a project from extern that use different pan laws!

 

15 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Pan laws not only differ in whether they use 3, 4.5 or 6 decibels, but whether they achieve that compensation by lowering the center or by raising the sides. IOW, you can keep the volume steady by adding 3dB at the extreme left and right positions, or by lowering the center by 3dB. The latter helps avoid the effect described in the OP, wherein a track unexpectedly clips just from being panned. Unfortunately, Cakewalk's default option, "0dB, sin/cos taper, constant power" suffers from this potential problem because it raises the sides rather than lowering the center.

Very interesting! It seems I am one of those that walked often into this trap (CbB default pan law! I will use -3 in the future!). I think probably it also explains some trouble that I had converting virtual instruments (especially drums) into audio. In this case it seems even more complicated, 'cos you may have panning before and after the freeze!

 

[David Baay]

On 7/7/2021 at 10:45 AM, bitflipper said:

Stick with just the one pick, though, because the pan law is global, and changing it will mess with any previous projects you revisit.

This is not correct. It's always been a quirk of Pan Law that it's not in the Project section of Preferences but it is, in fact, a per-project/template setting,

[Glenn Stanton]

i think bit was thinking of the global driver settings:

this can be changed per project / template - i.e. the global setting is stored in the project file and is set to that value when a project / template is opened. 

good to know!

Edited July 9, 2021 by Glenn Stanton

[bitflipper]

You are correct. I mis-spoke when I called it "global". It isn't. A better word would be "persistent". Once you set it, that does become the default for subsequent projects. This is how you can inadvertently end up using a different pan law than you thought was in play.

[David Baay]

2 hours ago, bitflipper said:

Once you set it, that does become the default for subsequent projects.

New projects will use the  pan law set in the template from which they're created.  It is possible to set a pan law with no project or template open, but that will only be the default if you start the new project using the 'No Tracks or Buses' (used to be called [Blank]) 'template'. 

[marcL]

13 hours ago, David Baay said:

New projects will use the  pan law set in the template from which they're created.  It is possible to set a pan law with no project or template open, but that will only be the default if you start the new project using the 'No Tracks or Buses' (used to be called [Blank]) 'template'. 

This is the way how it works in Splat!  But CbB (2020.08) brings for me always the 0dB default, even if I opened CbB without anything open (no project/template) and then save with -3dB pan law in the properties (Driver Settings). When I reopen CbB and either open the properties at once or create a new project with --blank-- template, it always reverted back to 0dB pan law (default). Terrible! This is one of the 1000s quirks you have to keep in mind if you use CbB! ?

The only thing that works here with CbB is if I change the pan law in my template and create a new project from the template!

[Glenn Stanton]

hmmmm. for me, if i set it to -3db setting, then create a new project using the no tracks or busses in the new... dialog, the setting is the same, and if i create new using one of my templates, it switches to 0db, but then another new via the dialog it's the global setting. so maybe the stock templates use the 0db setting?

[bitflipper]

That would be the logical conclusion. You'd have to load your default template, change the pan law and re-save it as a template. After that, new projects should inherit the new pan law.

[marcL]

8 hours ago, Glenn Stanton said:

hmmmm. for me, if i set it to -3db setting, then create a new project using the no tracks or busses in the new... dialog, the setting is the same, and if i create new using one of my templates, it switches to 0db, but then another new via the dialog it's the global setting. so maybe the stock templates use the 0db setting?

If you set the -3db setting and then create a new project without template, then it works as long as you keep CbB open. But what I meant is that if you configure -3db (and save it), then close CbB, reopen and then create a new project without template, then it doesn't work anymore! Also the setting is reverted to 0dB. This does not happen in Sonar Platinum or X3!

8 hours ago, bitflipper said:

That would be the logical conclusion. You'd have to load your default template, change the pan law and re-save it as a template. After that, new projects should inherit the new pan law.

Exactly, that's what I meant, too!