TTS 1

[Byron Dickens]

I can't imagine expending so much effort on getting a free throwaway plugin to work.

[user 905133]

1 hour ago, abacab said:

I was only talking about the ability to route 4 discrete stereo audio channels from TTS-1 into Cakewalk's mixer from a single instance of TTS-1, so that you can have select TTS-1 instruments in 4 different groups routing to 4 different mixer channels. Almost like having 4 instances of TTS-1.

That way you can set up insert FX or FX busses on the Cakewalk mixer side. The 4 channel audio would then get mixed as one would ordinarily do so down to the 2-channel Master bus that feeds your audio hardware.

I wasn't referring to routing the 4 audio channels from TTS-1 directly to your audio hardware. Sorry I wasn't more clear in that regard.

Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I thought "assigning the multiple audio outs in TTS-1" meant using TTS-1's 4 audio channels.  I can definitely use up to 16 forced midi channels and one instance of TTS-1 using the MIDI output track control/widget (typical multitimbral synth).

With my current set up I can try adding some audio plug-ins to see if it I can get it to crash. 

That being said, today I was testing some TRacks FX (not in TTS-1, though) and one caused the infamous Unhandled Exception Error. It was one of the FX that need to be purchased and Cakewalk didn't handle it well.

[abacab]

37 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I thought "assigning the multiple audio outs in TTS-1" meant using TTS-1's 4 audio channels.  I can definitely use up to 16 forced midi channels and one instance of TTS-1 using the MIDI output track control/widget (typical multitimbral synth).

TTS-1 works a lot like Kontakt in a multi-timbral context.

It can receive up to 16 MIDI channels, but unlike Kontakt, has only has 1-4 audio channels for the instruments on MIDI ch 1-16 to play back to the DAW mixer with. Kontakt can do 1 for 1, 16 MIDI in to 16 audio out.

Edited April 30, 2021 by abacab

[user 905133]

1 hour ago, abacab said:

TTS-1 works a lot like Kontakt in a multi-timbral context.

It can receive up to 16 MIDI channels, but unlike Kontakt, has only has 1-4 audio channels for the instruments on MIDI ch 1-16 to play back to the DAW mixer with. Kontakt can do 1 for 1, 16 MIDI in to 16 audio out.

I think I still have a free Kontakt variant, but I never use it.  My experiences with multitimbral synths come mostly from 1980s/1990s/2000s hardware (Sequential Circuits Multi-Track, Casio CZs and VZs, Rolands, E-Mus, and a few others).

As for TTS-1, I took a midi file I've had for a while ("Whitebird") which I once tweaked to play on a Roland M-GS64 (Sound Canvas variant, not unlike TTS-1).  Opened it up in Cakewalk 2021.04 and pointed all tracks to a single instance of TTS-1.  Looks like there are 7 or so channels of MID data.

While playing it, I started piling up plug-ins in the TTS-1 FX bin. So far:  TH2 SONAR, the Gated Snare Reverb FX Chain with Cakewalk Compressor/Gate and Sonitus Reverb, AIR Chorus, TR5 Metering and Lurssen Mastering Console (graphic activity usually elevates my CPU power), and Amplitube 4.

So far its all MIDI playing the one TTS-1 with the plug-ins.  

If I understand the use case you described, I need to render each MIDI channel to its own audio track so I can have separate FX on single tracks.  Or is there an easier way to get FX on individual tracks (without using TTS-1's 4 outputs)?

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by User 905133

[abacab]

56 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

I think I still have a free Kontakt variant, but I never use it.  My experiences with multitimbral synths come mostly from 1980s/1990s/2000s hardware (Sequential Circuits Multi-Track, Casio CZs and VZs, Rolands, E-Mus, and a few others).

As for TTS-1, I took a midi file I've had for a while ("Whitebird") which I once tweaked to play on a Roland M-GS64 (Sound Canvas variant, not unlike TTS-1).  Opened it up in Cakewalk 2021.04 and pointed all tracks to a single instance of TTS-1.  Looks like there are 7 or so channels of MID data.

While playing it, I started piling up plug-ins in the TTS-1 FX bin. So far:  TH2 SONAR, the Gated Snare Reverb FX Chain with Cakewalk Compressor/Gate and Sonitus Reverb, AIR Chorus, TR5 Metering and Lurssen Mastering Console (graphic activity usually elevates my CPU power), and Amplitube 4.

So far its all MIDI playing the one TTS-1 with the plug-ins.  

If I understand the use case you described, I need to render each MIDI channel to its own audio track so I can have separate FX on single tracks.  Or is there an easier way to get FX on individual tracks?

 

 

Sure there is a way!

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/cakewalk-bandlab-tts-1-synth

 

[user 905133]

That's what I originally thought you meant in the first place. 

I was able to use TTS-1's four outputs with my E-Mu PCI Card.  I did it using the PatchMix DSP utility [a mixer where I could had up to 32 ASIO Input Channels and and up to 32 ASIO Output Channels and could use them as sends and returns in various ways, including with SONAR/Cakewalk Tracks as well as other software]. 

But, I have not been able to do that ever since a Windows update made the card useless except for ADAT Clock and a Firewire port.

I might be able to set it up with my current interface. Not sure. I'd have to consult the manuals, sort out the available options, and test it out.

But, evidently your solution is to use Cakewalk's Console and I suspect Aux Tracks or something else to provide the functionality that I had with using TTS-1's four outputs and PatchMix.

That is the missing link I need to teach myself if I am going to try your method. I would need a workaround in Cakewalk for what I used to do with the PatchMix Console.

Quote

Just a guess: Maybe the reason TTS-1 didn't crash for me but did for you (and maybe others), is that I used a different method of accessing the four TTS-1 outputs.

PS: I just took another look at the SOS article you linked.  If the explanation of how to do in Cakewalk what I did in PatchMix DSP is in there, I didn't see it.

BTW, after the Windows Update made my PCI Card 85% useless, PatchMix no longer boots.  Otherwise I could look at my ASIO Channel routings and try to reconstruct them using Cakewalk.  I could try to reconstruct it in SONAR X1 under XP SP3.    

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by User 905133
to add a PS and a BTW

[user 905133]

2 hours ago, User 905133 said:

But, evidently your solution is to use Cakewalk's Console and I suspect Aux Tracks or something else to provide the functionality that I had with using TTS-1's four outputs and PatchMix.

That is the missing link I need to teach myself if I am going to try your method. I would need a workaround in Cakewalk for what I used to do with the PatchMix Console.

Not sure if this is how you did it, but it seems to be part of the missing link.  My workaround involves creating Aux Tracks off of the TTS-1 Track and assigning them to the TTS-1 Outputs.

From there I just moved the FX plug-ins to the TTS-1 Output Tracks.  So far, no crashes, but I only have 2 or 3 plug-ins on each of three TTS-1 Outputs.

It seems that with my workaround, I now have what you described here (using Cakewalk instead of PatchMix):

7 hours ago, abacab said:

I was . . . talking about the ability to route 4 discrete stereo audio channels from TTS-1 into Cakewalk's mixer . . . so that you can have select TTS-1 instruments in 4 different groups routing to 4 different mixer channels. Almost like having 4 instances of TTS-1.

That way you can set up insert FX or FX busses on the Cakewalk mixer side. The 4 channel audio would then get mixed as one would ordinarily do so down to the 2-channel Master bus that feeds your audio hardware.

So, thanks for helping to lead me to this.  There are other things I used to be able to do with PatchMix that I have been sorely missing.  Maybe using Aux Tracks, Patch Points, Sends, etc. I might find more workarounds using Cakewalk.   

As for trying to recreate the kinds of crashes you and others have, I will have to spend more time on that.  For me, the time has been worth the effort because it seems to be useful for routing methods I thought I would never get back.  

Other relevant resources I found:

http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Mixing.13.html

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by User 905133

[Terry Kelley]

Did you insert the TTS-1 with the Instrument Track per Output checked in the Insert Soft Synth Options? When you do, it creates 4 tracks for each output. Then you go into the TTS-1 settings and assign each "Part" to an output. You then route those 4 to some master or main output. You can insert audio effects on each track but you are stuck with any/all Parts sent to that output going through the same effects. You can alternately, assign each midi track to an output one by one, freeze it, copy that to a new track and keep going until each one has it's own track and therefore can have it's own audio effect.

Your questions imply you missed a step somewhere.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Terry Kelley

[abacab]

What Terry said ^^^

[abacab]

No need to route TTS-1 directly to your hardware.

Just use 4 cakewalk audio tracks for the plugin audio outs. Then match up the TTS-1 instruments (in TTS-1) that you want to mix per the 4 outputs as illustrated in Craig Anderton's graphic in the SOS article.

If 4 audio tracks will not give you enough separation for your mix, then just use a separate instance of TTS-1 for each instrument (easier). For a simple multi example send all drums to one output, bass to a second, guitar to a third, and everything else such as piano, or whatever to the fourth.

Edited May 1, 2021 by abacab

[user 905133]

10 hours ago, Terry Kelley said:

Did you insert the TTS-1 with the Instrument Track per Output checked in the Insert Soft Synth Options? When you do, it creates 4 tracks for each output. Then you go into the TTS-1 settings and assign each "Part" to an output. You then route those 4 to some master or main output. You can insert audio effects on each track but you are stuck with any/all Parts sent to that output going through the same effects. You can alternately, assign each midi track to an output one by one, freeze it, copy that to a new track and keep going until each one has it's own track and therefore can have it's own audio effect.

For the sake of comparison I am calling this ^^^ Method 2.

(2a): Did you insert the TTS-1 with the Instrument Track per Output checked in the Insert Soft Synth Options?

(2a var 1) Not yet.  First I tried my go-to insertion method: right click in the track area which brings up the wizard. Instrument Track Per Output selected. Note: only a single instrument gets inserted. 

(2a var 2) Tried my alternate insertion method: drag plug-in from Browser to track area.  Four tracks were created. 

(2a) Tried the new menu menu system route Menu Bar > Insert > Soft Synth... > flyout menu > Cakewalk folder. Four tracks were created (but it took longer than var 2).

(2b) Then you go into the TTS-1 settings and assign each "Part" to an output. This is consistent with what I have done for years.

(2c) You then route those 4 to some master or main output.   I generally go directly to output channels, but I can try this with Method 2.

(2d -> 2etc.)  The other steps you outlined above are pretty much part of any common sense workflow, and maybe I will try another time to duplicate those methods and variations to try to see if I can make TTS-1 crash on my PC.

But first, I wanted to double check my method.  I'll call it Method 1 for the sake of comparison.  I'll call my original method (the one using PatchMix DSP) Method 0.

So, I opened the file using Method 1 from last night.  It works as I described.  I only used 3 out TTS-1's 4 ports, but it still works--meaning I can  pile up FX in each of the three FX bins.  As I said, I have an older computer and if I tax the CPU beyond its abilities under normal conditions, I run the risk of adding audio artifacts. But that's not unique to TTS-1.

Quote

You can alternately, assign each midi track to an output one by one, freeze it, copy that to a new track and keep going until each one has it's own track and therefore can have it's own audio effect.

I'm not here yet (16 individual TTS-1 tracks/channels/parts each with its own FX).   It might be that these steps go beyond how TTS-1 was intended to be used and are what causes the crashes you guys see. 

I have a lifelong history of pushing the limits of the technology I use, but for me finding the limits and then using the technology up to that point and not beyond is par for the course. 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by User 905133
to extend the results of the TTS-1 per-track/channel/part/port FX methodological tests

[user 905133]

It might not have been clear, but I have been using TTS-1 for a long time.  I also started using TTS-1's ports successfully years ago. 

However, I was using PatchMix DSP, so I had absolutely no need to learn another method.

I thought it was clear in the previous post that I had gotten access to the TTS-1's ports within Cakewalk and could assign FX to different TTS-1 channels ["parts" in Roland-speak] using Aux Tracks yesterday.

It seems like you guys are describing another method. 

ADDENDUM:  I will double check my method, but it worked last night.  Of course, maybe you guys are doing something that I am not and that's what's causing your crashes? If so, it might be good to figure out what that step is.

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by User 905133
(3) to change a question into a statement--re: a different method; (2) to add an addendum; (1) to add "yesterday"

[user 905133]

3 hours ago, abacab said:

What Terry said ^^^

See reply above. 

[user 905133]

19 hours ago, bdickens said:

I can't imagine expending so much effort on getting a free throwaway plugin to work.

I agree in principle--not that it came bundled with SONAR (ergo, not free for me, because I paid for SONAR for a good number of years) and not that some people throw it away--but that some people have pushed it use to such extremes.

To be clear, I now know that it can be finessed far beyond its original purpose.

For me the time spent exploring the crash issue experienced by others has been a personally fruitful learning experience for reasons stated above--primarily because I now understand some generalizable options  for overcoming the loss of using my PCI Card.

While I could choose to use TTS-1 in this way, the value for me here is in methods that can apply to other plug-ins.

Edited May 1, 2021 by User 905133
to remove "not"

[Byron Dickens]

That's understandable and actually productive.

I'm more referring to the way some people spend an inordinate amount of time beating their heads against the wall with some free flaky plugin they stumbled across they thought looked cool that God Knows who developed God knows how many years ago.

I've pretty much stopped looking at freebies unless they are from a known developer. Sometimes if I for some reason am looking for an offbeat Instrument I don't already have - say, a Peruvian Nose Flute - I'll check out some freebie. But if it doesn't work right away or I don't like it for some reason: poof, it's gone. I probably have more stuff than I will ever use and I'm not anywhere near the plugin collector some are.

[Terry Kelley]

I think in one way or another each of us have expressed our reasons for liking and wanting to use TTS-1. It's not a one-off by some internet random. Old, oh yeah, but when functional, it's extremely useful. But to your other point, yes, many of us have learned it's limitations and don't expect it to fill every need.

I do agree with your point about (generally) avoiding the myriad of one-off VSTs floating around. But I don't see TTS-1 as one of them.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Terry Kelley

[John Vere]

I didn't read all of this but I made 2 videos that show you how to use 2 instances to get 8 audio tracks. in my example I output the first 4 as instruments and the second instance I use as a 4 track drum module. I was having crashes back a few years ago but it seems Cakewalk updates have eliminated that for me. I don't really use it on any finished songs other than I might steal the brushes or percussion. I'm not a fan of it's lo fi sounds. But it's a super important tool for pre viewing midi files and getting a start. 

Oh and way back someone mentioned Xpand 2 as a replacement. Ya, Xpand 2 is not GM so will not play midi files out of the box. But I will say it's what I do use to replace TTS-1 for horns, woodwinds and percussion. 

 

 

 

[John Vere]

Thinking about this and the fact that there isn’t any GM ready VST’s out there. Well I do have Steinbergs  Halcyon which has real good quality sounds but that’s difficult to use in Cakewalk 

But seems TTS-1 is an important part of Cakewalk. 
How hard would it be to update it?  Is it impossible?  
What would be cool would be if it became a VST and used basic samples. They could integrate SI instruments. Just think how great it would be to NOT have to swap out most of the sounds. 

[msmcleod]

17 minutes ago, John Vere said:

Thinking about this and the fact that there isn’t any GM ready VST’s out there. Well I do have Steinbergs  Halcyon which has real good quality sounds but that’s difficult to use in Cakewalk 

But seems TTS-1 is an important part of Cakewalk. 
How hard would it be to update it?  Is it impossible?  
What would be cool would be if it became a VST and used basic samples. They could integrate SI instruments. Just think how great it would be to NOT have to swap out most of the sounds. 

We don't have the TTS-1 source code.  TTS-1 is a Roland product.

[abacab]

28 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

We don't have the TTS-1 source code.  TTS-1 is a Roland product.

Figured as much... ?