Overwrite midi automation

[Norfolk]

Guys, tell someone please. This question has tormented me for many years.
The situation is this:
We turn on the recording on the midi track, press the main record button [R], play the midi keyboard, we get something like this:

Now I want to rewrite only automation, i.e. controllers, in this case a modulation wheel.
I put "Sound on Sound" in the recording settings, turn on the recording. I get something like this:

If you turn on playback afterwards, IN Kontakt, for example, will receive modulation wheel readings from both Take Lanes, i.e. both from the first recorded clip and from the second (and the controller will jerk wildly, trying to show everything that is ordered to it.

Tell me how to organize such a recording? You just need to, if necessary, rewrite the necessary fragments of the controllers from the midi keyboard / controller, while leaving the midi notes in place, and edit the necessary places in the Piano Roll with the mouse.

There are still Comping and Overwrite modes in the recording settings, but they do not give the desired effect.

Thanks everyone for the answers!

[msmcleod]

You're not recording automation here, you're recording MIDI control events in a standard take lane.

Try using an automation lane with it set to Modulation on the desired channel.  You don't need to record arm the track, just write enable the automation and press play:



Note the two steps:

1. Assigning the automation parameter - which is what the envelope will control.
2. Assigning the remote control - telling CbB you want to use the modulation wheel (controller 1) to record the automation.  

The reason for the two steps, is that you could use step 2 to use your modulation wheel to record any automation parameter - not just modulation.

BTW - I tend to set automation mode to "Latch" when recording automation for the first time, then set it to "Touch" for subsequent edits.  Setting it to Touch means it'll only overwrite when you're actually moving the wheel, and leave everything else as is, whereas Latch will overwrite everything.
 

[Norfolk]

msmcleod, thanks for the answer!

You told a good way! But if I choose to use this method, I will have to completely abandon recording MIDI control events in a standard take lane.

But,

Sometimes I need to record MIDI events and MIDI control events at the same time, and then edit what I need

Maybe there is a way to disable recording of MIDI control events and use only envelope automation?

But even this will not be a very convenient way, i.e. the piano roll has a convenient section for editing controller parameters

 

It would be very convenient to edit automation envelopes in Piano Roll View or to simply overwrite Midi concrols events only.

I watched a video on working with Logic. It seemed to me that they have a very convenient implementation of this function. I would like it to be just as comfortable in my beloved Sonar

[chris.r]

In your situation what I would do is select only the wheel events by using menu Edit>Select>By Filter or simply lasso selecting by hand in the PRV (wish there could be more editing tools re cc events in the prv) and drag them to another midi track that's being sent to the same instrument. Now I could re-record only the wheel using comping or punch-in methods.

Typically, working on midi controllers is a bit more challenging. I too wish we could have more convenient ways when working with midi, especially the controllers, but then I realized that we're rather on the niche side compared to the whole user base with this, and have to arm ourselves in more hope and patience .

4 hours ago, Norfolk said:

I watched a video on working with Logic. It seemed to me that they have a very convenient implementation of this function. I would like it to be just as comfortable in my beloved Sonar

I've heard often Logic being recommended as best DAW for orchestral work, this could well be the clue (plus the visual presentation of midi when zoomed out).

Edited April 6, 2021 by chris.r

[Norfolk]

chris.r, Thanks for participating!

I was sure there was no problem here. I thought I didn't know something and someone would tell me which setting to enable.
I have been working in Sonar for a long time since the 5th version, but I have always drawn midi-cc with my hands and a mouse.  And now I write orchestral music, and now it's easier to play a part on the midi keyboard, and then edit what I need.
Now I understand that Sonar can't do that at all. It seemed to me that this was some kind of very basic skill for DAW. In large projects, drawing with my hands and mouse becomes hard.
Maybe the developers will hear us and organize this function??

[chris.r]

38 minutes ago, Norfolk said:

It seemed to me that this was some kind of very basic skill for DAW.

Agree, best way for a DAW is to get the least in the way when you're making music but then serving you a huuuge hand when editing especially when dealing with tedious tasks - the more tedious, the more we should lean on the DAW.

[chris.r]

On 4/6/2021 at 2:07 PM, Norfolk said:

...the piano roll has a convenient section for editing controller parameters
(...)
It would be very convenient to edit automation envelopes in Piano Roll View or to simply overwrite Midi concrols events only.

The piano roll section for editing controllers is fine if you're dealing with just 2-3 controllers, if you have to deal with 20-30 then it looses sense. I just opened one of my projects with only one instrument... the Hammond organ . And instantly remember the hassle when it comes to edit the controllers. If you're going to record the organ track properly there you can easily exceed 30 of them in one track, 2x9 drawbars for both manuals plus at least 2 for the pedals that's already 20, then there is expression pedal which in some cases is moooving constantly the whole track populating it with never-ending waves of cc#11 events. Plus some intermittent leslie switch movements, drive, volume, click, V/C, rocker switches and cabinet settings... many of them drawing at once in the prv! I mean, just working on the expression pedal alone in prv is a grind, not to mention if you'd want to overwrite just a single controller events line, for just a part of the song. There are no tools.

I can't see how working on orchestral tracks would be much different, except there could be even more hassle in big projects.

Edited April 7, 2021 by chris.r

[Norfolk]

Yes, chris.r, I know what you mean. There are always a lot of awkward things in big projects. Your organ example is very interesting! 30 controllers is a very difficult task! 3-4 is enough for me to have a lot of worries)
In general, work with controllers is normally organized in Sonar. Of course, it would be better if instead of individual sticks there were full-fledged envelopes, but modern Sonar already has tools that allow you to conveniently work with the mouse and with sticks.
Many people draw controllers with their hands, but now I think there should be complete tools for playing musicians. I am sure that the programmers are from Cakewalk can add the function of rewriting controllers separate. That would be enough for me. Updates are released regularly, I hope we will see this feature in the next ones.

[chris.r]

4 hours ago, Norfolk said:

I am sure that the programmers are from Cakewalk can add the function of rewriting controllers separate. That would be enough for me.

That would be huge, though not enough for for some, me included. I'd wish for example, for every controller line, somewhere on the left, a folded list of all available controllers, where we could freely enable/disable each cc#, to show only those we'd want to work with on that line, and for that moment (for example we could get two lines with separate controller sets for Osc1 and Osc2 of a synth or two separate drawbar sets of upper/lower keyboard - to compare/edit with reference to each other and notes), AND enable/disable a chosen cc#(s) for overwrite-recording (similar to write-enable an envelope). That's just top of an iceberg what ideas could be added to the editing toolset, some of them, really basic, much missing. But like I said, I don't see midi editing anywhere on the top of requests for most of the userbase, unfortunately.

Edited April 7, 2021 by chris.r