Is Cakewalk gaining users/popularity with Bandlab?

[Starship Krupa]

3 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

I think most people here know the types of people I'm referring to.

Yes, which is why I referred to the Commodore Amiga. Back in the dial-up BBS days, the Amiga and Linux had similarly moonie-ish followings.

How this manifested in online discussions would be that if anyone mentioned any application of computers, say word processing or databases, or CAD, the BBS' resident Amiga or Linux moonie would be certain to chime in to claim that such-and-such program, which was the only application at the time that was written for that task on their platform and was , of course, only available on that platform, was considered by all, far and wide, to be far superior to any similar software that was available for the Macintosh or DOS/Windows.

You know, "I'm trying to decide whether to go with WordPerfect or Microsoft Word for the Mac my parents just bought me to take to UC Berkeley. Anyone used either of them?"

"Well, I know that PencilPoint PaperPress for AmigaDOS is the best word processing program there is!"

This had the result of everyone else on the BBS swearing that we would never, ever touch a Commodore computer as long as we lived, not even if it were running life support at the emergency room at a hospital and we needed its help to survive.

No doubt the moment that Reaper got the ability to display a staff view, no matter how rudimentary it may have been, there were Reaper advocates who would tell you that anyone who wanted to do serious work with a staff view should try REAPER.

It put me off from trying the program for months longer than I would have otherwise.

I just have a thing about moonieware, and Reaper is, unfortunately, moonieware.

23 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

Nothing has as stable an audio engine....as Ableton Live.

Whoa, not even Mixcraft? When I came to Cakewalk from having used Mixcraft for years, it was jarring to find out that in Cakewalkville, the "audio engine" was this separate thing that starts and stops and that you sort of treat like a lawnmower engine. "Oops, she stalled out again, lemme give 'er a pull."

Things have gotten better in that department since I just went ahead and got a $30 SSD for my audio data, but still, whoo boy.

3 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

I have a Late 2013 iMac that I bought shortly after it came out.

Perhaps the average "lower end of beginner music maker" in your neighborhood has a bit more cash to play with than the ones in mine. As I said, my friend just bought a used Dell for $50. No beginner music maker I have ever met has been able to scrape the cash for a brand new or even recent Macintosh on their own just to do music with, no matter what a great deal it was in the long run.

If we posit a scenario where someone gets the DAW bug up their ass, chances are these days they will have a computer. Chances are it will be a Windowbox, in which case they can d/l CbB, but if it's not, they can have GarageBand for free instead. I was talking about if they don't have a computer. What budget do we give them?

[abacab]

I think that a dumbed down version of Cakewalk would be most appealing to true first time beginner music makers that have never used a DAW, and have no actual understanding of what audio or MIDI tracks are.

DAWs are complicated and can be intimidating for beginners, and I am not suggesting to cripple Cakewalk in any way.

Maybe a special basic lens and demo template would be all that is needed to dumb it down for beginners, along with some effective getting started videos that cover a few bundled  demo projects step by step, in detail.  Like with a game mode metaphor, with a choice of difficulty: Easy, Medium, or Hard.

I realize that Cakewalk can  acquire new users with any amount of experience, but probably the largest pool available is with beginner users. But if they download Cakewalk (which in all its glory is actually an enhanced version of Sonar Producer) and are not supported out of the box, they may just give up and look elsewhere for something to start their music maker journey with.

So bottom line, education and learning resources are probably the #1 priority for acquiring and retaining new Cakewalk users. Nothing wrong with Cakewalk, but a lot of the power is under the hood, and the good stuff is hidden away, until you stick around long enough to uncover it!

[InstrEd]

41 minutes ago, abacab said:

So bottom line, education and learning resources are probably the #1 priority for acquiring and retaining new Cakewalk users.

And with this statement IMHO they really do need to update the staff view.   Educational market is huge. Giving Cakewalk DAW  for free is great but if it doesn't have a decent STAFF/notation I don't think educational market will stick with it. 

[mdiemer]

10 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I just have a thing about moonieware, and Reaper is, unfortunately, moonieware.

 

What do you mean by Moonieware? I have not heard that term before.

 

10 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

 

 

Edited April 15, 2019 by mdiemer

[Starship Krupa]

2 hours ago, mdiemer said:

What do you mean by Moonieware? I have not heard that term before.

It's not a term in common use. We made it up on NIRVANAnet, a dialup BBS network, 30 years ago, to describe software or hardware that was, um....distinguished by having a rabid following. It's a snotty term, created by people in their 20's.

Here's a characteristic of Moonieware: when one tries to discuss such a product with one of its advocates, and try to get information about its strong suits and shortcomings, according to them the strong suits are everything, and the shortcomings are either none, or that the stupid idiots who run the company can't market the product properly, or that some other manufacturer(s) have a deathgrip on the marketplace.

They mean well, they're trying to help spread the word about their favorite whatever, help it survive, but people eventually wind up wishing they would just STFU, and it often creates unrealistically high expectations when someone does try the product and it turns out to just be a normal product with flaws like any other, often with glaring drawbacks that the users are overcompensating for.

Reaper isn't really like that anymore, as far as I know, but about 10 years ago, ugh.

[Kev]

I've never heard the term either but I get it. I take it to mean a product that has a hyper-abundance of unreasonably overenthusiastic advocates that people find off-putting. I would put Studio One in that category.

[Some Guy]

2 hours ago, Kev said:

I've never heard the term either but I get it. I take it to mean a product that has a hyper-abundance of unreasonably overenthusiastic advocates that people find off-putting. I would put Studio One in that category.

I think this has become more and more of a thing since Adobe moved to Creative Cloud, and more software packages have moved to the subscription business model.

A few "Alternatives" have a similar [very vocal and combative subset of their] following that trolls YouTube and forums with these types of comments:  Reaper, Studio One, DaVinci Resolve, and VEGAS Pro are the most notable of the bunch.

I don't typically see Cakewalk users do this.  I do tend to recommend it in YouTube comments where I see fit, though...  But I tend to just give my recommendation and ignore the feverish comments I may get in response to it.  Those people aren't interested in discussion and will only attempt to gaslight and bamboozle you, anyways ? 

Cakewalk being Windows-only is a bit of a competitive disadvantage as there are macOS users who cannot take advantage of it...  But it is designed very well to take great advantage of the platform on which it runs (similar to Logic Pro X on macOS), which is something I appreciate and think is a bit underestimated.  Many cross platform creative applications bias to macOS, IME (with the exception of Adobe, which tends to run better on Windows, but $$$).

If only they can add AAF support to Cakewalk by BandLab ? Collaborating with people who don't use Cakewalk is hard without it.  OMF is not enough , in 2019, as increasing amounts of software are not supporting it (or have such bad support that it mind as well not exist).  Exporting Stems (for video projects, etc.) is fine, but I need to be able to import AAFs from those other applications.

I see they have delivered an up to date Reference Guide, and it looks really good (though it could use a Table of Contents).  Thanks to BL for delivering on that request.

Edited April 15, 2019 by SomeGuy

[chuckebaby]

21 hours ago, abacab said:

think that a dumbed down version of Cakewalk would be most appealing to true first time beginner music makers that have never used a DAW, and have no actual understanding of what audio or MIDI tracks are.

DAWs are complicated and can be intimidating for beginners, and I am not suggesting to cripple Cakewalk in any way.

Maybe a special basic lens and demo template would be all that is needed to dumb it down for beginners, along with some effective getting started videos that cover a few bundled  demo projects step by step, in detail.  Like with a game mode metaphor, with a choice of difficulty: Easy, Medium, or Hard.

Really like this idea A-Cab.

Personally myself, I love all the bells and whistles but a bare bones DAW might bring in users who are looking to do basic things. After so many hours, you could move to another level.

[Craig Anderton]

22 hours ago, abacab said:

Maybe a special basic lens and demo template would be all that is needed to dumb it down for beginners, along with some effective getting started videos that cover a few bundled  demo projects step by step, in detail.  Like with a game mode metaphor, with a choice of difficulty: Easy, Medium, or Hard.

You're preaching to the choir! I've been pushing for this with music software in general - levels like video games. Lenses create a more beginner-friendly environment, but they're still lenses to a complicated program. With 8.5, where you had all those customization options, I did an interface that was basically an ADAT with faders. No MIDI, no VIs, no waveform editing, no plug-ins except for a reverb send on each channel and a limiter on the output. The idea was that you could give something like that away for free, and hook people.

I don't know if it's possible from a software standpoint to create a modular DAW, but that would be ideal. For example after mastering the ADAT interface, you could then add the waveform editing module. Or the virtual instrument module.  But since no DAW does this, it's probably not possible. Even better would be a standardized module format, so you could use, for example, Cakewalk's virtual mixer module in Pro Tools, or Cubase's staff editor in Cakewalk.

[InstrEd]

I don't use graphic Design software as much as I use to and I can relate how I forget somethings with layers and it drives me nuts.
I think that is the same way for DAW programs too. You have to use the program regularly to maintain some level of proficiency.
Some programs you just have to bite the bullet and spend some time with them.  I do like the idea about Videos. I wish Cakewalk had this with simple Demo projects that get you started series.  

[mdiemer]

7 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

It's not a term in common use. We made it up on NIRVANAnet, a dialup BBS network, 30 years ago, to describe software or hardware that was, um....distinguished by having a rabid following. It's a snotty term, created by people in their 20's.

Here's a characteristic of Moonieware: when one tries to discuss such a product with one of its advocates, and try to get information about its strong suits and shortcomings, according to them the strong suits are everything, and the shortcomings are either none, or that the stupid idiots who run the company can't market the product properly, or that some other manufacturer(s) have a deathgrip on the marketplace.

They mean well, they're trying to help spread the word about their favorite whatever, help it survive, but people eventually wind up wishing they would just STFU, and it often creates unrealistically high expectations when someone does try the product and it turns out to just be a normal product with flaws like any other, often with glaring drawbacks that the users are overcompensating for.

Reaper isn't really like that anymore, as far as I know, but about 10 years ago, ugh.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought it meant. Thanks for the description. I will keep it in mind when evaluating software and their respective forums. As for Reaper, I used it for about a year, and I didn't get much of a sense that it was in that category. Sure, there were the usual fanboys. Reaper is of course very customizable, and you would constantly hear about that; but the other side is that it is not beginner-friendly. I think the tremendous enthusiasm for the fact that it's highly customizable is really a cover for that fact.

It tool me a LONG time to figure out midi routing, which is a breeze in Cakewalk. I did get to the point where my workflow was similar to Cakewalk, but there were always extra mouse clicks, extra steps. On the other hand, the end result was better, mainly because Reaper, along with other DAWS, automatically compensates for differences in latency between different vstis.  With Cakewalk, I have to adjust the timing for different instruments on the track inspector, so everything starts at more or less the same time. This is something I just learned from scook (may his name be blessed).  As you said, they all have their respective strengths and weaknesses. 

[paulo]

9 hours ago, Kev said:

I take it to mean a product that has a hyper-abundance of unreasonably overenthusiastic advocates that people find off-putting. I would put Studio One in that category.

A few on the old CW forum used to get a bit like that too. I think those types are probably everywhere. 

I have S1 but never use it mostly because I don't like looking at it.

[Craig Anderton]

Your historical trivia for today: "moonies" were devotees of Sun Myung Moon, and often very vocal in their support for same.

[abacab]

2 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

Your historical trivia for today: "moonies" were devotees of Sun Myung Moon, and often very vocal in their support for same.

Yep, I was going to post some cultural factoids, until I realized that this ain't the coffee house! Probably some fun off-topic banter to be had with this subject!

[Some Guy]

On 4/14/2019 at 9:07 AM, emwhy said:

 Those were all taught on Pro Tools. It surprised me how most of them even as 18 & 19 year olds did not like using the program. One big change that has happened in recent years is that a lot of the instructors now let the students use their DAW of choice for projects and work outside of class, In fact one teacher there openly encourages it. We are at a time where it's good to have all these tools at our disposal.

Nor Surprising At All.  A lot of people do not like even looking at Avid Media Composer or Pro Tools.  The UI/UX is old school and frankly, the applications are developed in a non-disruptive way.

When you are industry-standard, you sort of lose the ability to do things like massive UI Redesigns and fundamental changes to functionality without disrupting the market (FCPX's release is a good example of this).

That market position is both a boon and a bane to developers.  It guarantees their software will be widely used, but it also ties their hands and severely constricts the room they have to be innovative or "forward thinking" in many areas.

[Some Guy]

On 4/14/2019 at 1:10 PM, Chuck E Baby said:

I think what it comes down to is... If Cakewalk wasn't gaining users, wasn't popular.. we all would have been evicted months ago.

I think Ming, Noel and Co. have a plan laid out. IMO, its probably going as planned and we should worry less about how popular the DAW is and worry more about our own recordings/productions. I know I am

It depends on the reason why they purchased it and what the plans for it are.  If the plans are for them to build up the BandLab ecosystem, then having Cakewalk can be a crucial component of that.  Sometimes, companies are playing the long game.  It isn't always about Year 1 user base increases...

That being said, they don't seem to be putting much work into BandLab.com, either.

So I'm just a tad bit confused, myself.

[Some Guy]

17 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

You're preaching to the choir! I've been pushing for this with music software in general - levels like video games. Lenses create a more beginner-friendly environment, but they're still lenses to a complicated program. With 8.5, where you had all those customization options, I did an interface that was basically an ADAT with faders. No MIDI, no VIs, no waveform editing, no plug-ins except for a reverb send on each channel and a limiter on the output. The idea was that you could give something like that away for free, and hook people.

I don't know if it's possible from a software standpoint to create a modular DAW, but that would be ideal. For example after mastering the ADAT interface, you could then add the waveform editing module. Or the virtual instrument module.  But since no DAW does this, it's probably not possible. Even better would be a standardized module format, so you could use, for example, Cakewalk's virtual mixer module in Pro Tools, or Cubase's staff editor in Cakewalk.

I think the basic Lens is fine, honestly, and can't see much reason for the second point as its usefulness is completely dependent on ex-SONAR users caring enough to "plug-in" functionality from SONAR into other DAWs... and they'd probably want to become as proficient using the actual other DAW's functionality as possible... particularly for industry professionals.  That would certainly look nice on a feature list, though...

I think the biggest issue with Cakewalk are:

1.  Windows-Only

2. Bugs that have persisted since older versions (and still aren't fixed):  Example

3.  Weak Bundled Plug-In and Instrument Bundle.  Beginners do not want to spend 20 hours scouring the internet for subpar instruments.  Virtually no Loops bundled - and no avenue to buy what used to be in/bundled with the Sonar Platinum product (It's been a year... how long will that take?)

4.  No Marketing; Lots of people simply don't know about it, because Cakewalk (the company) didn't really do as much as they could to push it.  Similar issue to VEGAS Pro with Sony.

5.  Not a lot of learning material.  Not covered in nearly as much depth as competing DAWs, due to lack of industry momentum.  Improving, but the quality of the material isn't yet on par with other, newer, DAWs.

6. Lack of AAF support inhibits it in some niches (Film Audio Post, etc.),  as well as its collaborative potential with people who do not use Cakewalk (AAFTranslator is $199, mind as well just buy Studio One if you're going to blow that much on an OMF->AAF Utility, frankly).

Platform-locked plug-ins don't matter to beginners and hobbyists/upstarts.  They probably won't be using multiple DAWs, anyways, so depending on them to pick up Cakewalk as "another DAW" is not a great strategy if that level of the market is a big deal with BandLab.  I wouldn't even recommend those people double fist two DAWs.  Learn ONE and then learn about Music Theory, etc. so that you can actually produce good work.  Don't bog yourself down with redundant software.  That's for "later."

Edited April 16, 2019 by SomeGuy

[Kurre]

Video was mentioned. Be aware that not all people like manual on video better than manual to read.

I'm one of them that always search for helpful things to read.

When i see or hear something interesting i often go into "meditation mode". When that "mode" is over and it's time to go on with the material a video has moved on and has to be rewind but with text you just go on from where you left it.

PS. My sister is the opposite. She could read a manual for hours and don't get it. I'll come over and do it one time as she watch and she gets it right away.

[msmcleod]

8 minutes ago, Kurre said:

Video was mentioned. Be aware that not all people like manual on video better than manual to read.

I'm one of them that always search for helpful things to read.

When i see or hear something interesting i often go into "meditation mode". When that "mode" is over and it's time to go on with the material a video has moved on and has to be rewind but with text you just go on from where you left it.

PS. My sister is the opposite. She could read a manual for hours and don't get it. I'll come over and do it one time as she watch and she gets it right away.

If it's something I'm doing for the first time, then in general I prefer to be shown something. So videos are good for me.

However, there's a huge downside to videos: it's almost impossible to skim through a video and get to the part you're really interested in. The Groove3 SONAR tutorials are a good example of this. Whilst the videos are excellent and very comprehensive, if I just want to be reminded of how to do a particular task it means watching several minutes of "explaining" before I find what I need.

This is where written documentation is so much better, as it's very easy to skim through until you get to the part where you can read in detail.

[Feral State Sound]

1 hour ago, SomeGuy said:

I think the basic Lens is fine, honestly, and can't see much reason for the second point as its usefulness is completely dependent on ex-SONAR users caring enough to "plug-in" functionality from SONAR into other DAWs... and they'd probably want to become as proficient using the actual other DAW's functionality as possible... particularly for industry professionals.  That would certainly look nice on a feature list, though...

I think the biggest issue with Cakewalk are:

1.  Windows-Only

2. Bugs that have persisted since older versions (and still aren't fixed):  Example

3.  Weak Bundled Plug-In and Instrument Bundle.  Beginners do not want to spend 20 hours scouring the internet for subpar instruments.  Virtually no Loops bundled - and no avenue to buy what used to be in/bundled with the Sonar Platinum product (It's been a year... how long will that take?)

4.  No Marketing; Lots of people simply don't know about it, because Cakewalk (the company) didn't really do as much as they could to push it.  Similar issue to VEGAS Pro with Sony.

5.  Not a lot of learning material.  Not covered in nearly as much depth as competing DAWs, due to lack of industry momentum.  Improving, but the quality of the material isn't yet on par with other, newer, DAWs.

6. Lack of AAF support inhibits it in some niches (Film Audio Post, etc.),  as well as its collaborative potential with people who do not use Cakewalk (AAFTranslator is $199, mind as well just buy Studio One if you're going to blow that much on an OMF->AAF Utility, frankly).

Platform-locked plug-ins don't matter to beginners and hobbyists/upstarts.  They probably won't be using multiple DAWs, anyways, so depending on them to pick up Cakewalk as "another DAW" is not a great strategy if that level of the market is a big deal with BandLab.  I wouldn't even recommend those people double fist two DAWs.  Learn ONE and then learn about Music Theory, etc. so that you can actually produce good work.  Don't bog yourself down with redundant software.  That's for "later."

I think that only the first two points and maybe the sixth are applicable to Cakewalk this times. AFAIK Bandlab is working on the bundled Cakewalk instruments and maybe we will see more of them added soon and there is no need of marketing for a free product. In my opinion, being free for everyone is the best possible marketing strategy (but maybe it would be better to announce the actual program on the Bandlab main page). The learning material is growing each day and I think that this is going to be the rule as long as the program remains free. 

When I started to show some interest on Cakewalk SONAR (maybe 2016 or 2017), there was only one Youtube channel that was making updated and quality free training content for Cakewalk, Chernobyl Studios. For me, that was symptomatic of a dying program. Now, if you search for "Cakewalk" on Youtube, you will see tons of new updated videos about the program and even people switching to Cakewalk from other DAWs (Fortiori for example). As if it was not enough, you also have the Craig Anderton book and an official online and offline free wonderful manual. So, in this part I think that the program is advancing adequately. 

On the other hand, I am not sure about the Bandlab commitment to fix the long-standing Cakewalk bugs or any intention to make the program cross-platform. The second can wait but I think that it is a must in the long-term if Bandlab plans to reach a large audience. Regarding Cakewalk bugs, although it seems that Bandlab is concentrating on stability and fixes, it is strange that some of the serious bugs stills remains one year after the re-release and the same applies to the half-finished features, they are still half-finished and there is no commitment to improve them (ehem ehem Staff editor , cough cough Matrix view). Are you losing interest on developing the product? Everything seems to go reaaaally slow.

Edit: Please don't tell me that I cannot make any requests or demands because the program is wonderful and it is free. Cakewalk is only free for now as we finally know what are the Bandlab plans for it. For me, the program it is free to download but not completely free, at least as long you are sending analytics about your personal use. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Feral State Sound