FR: Chord track

[abacab]

Don't overlook the Chord Track feature that was added to Studio One Pro 4.0.

Chord recognition is a given with MIDI data, because the notes are already known. But for audio material with an unknown chord structure, you can drag the audio track onto the chord track for auto chord recognition.

This video is 2 years old, but covers the basic concepts of their chord track. This software has been updated to S1 version 5.4.1 since then.

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by abacab

[abacab]

Workflow for sketching in a chord progression using a chord track.

 

[pbognar]

8 hours ago, Mark Mitchell said:

I have been a user of Cakewalk for decades, and have been very pleased with the Bandlab support of this application which in the Gibson shutdown set me into a bit of depression  - my tool of years was feeling dead to me.  

I came across the idea of a Chord Track from a YouTube Video yesterday. The antics of the guy are excusable - he does provide good info. He used Cubase - which the posts here have shown was first. It really sounded useful from the idea of improvising in the DAW software and making a visible outline of the harmony to use going forward - or reminding you on reopening what it was doing.  I went searching to see if we had this and found this thread - yes I would love to see this added.

I also read in the thread that there is not any Music XML support -  another thing that I would like to have included. The only XML import in the manual shows up ACT files only.  I have been looking at the scoring software area and the ability to export and import Music XML is standard.

 Musescore software is working on allowing plugins of VST for their next version  - version 4. That software is open source - which to me would mean that contributions to that code base might make it interchangeable with Cakewalk.  It might be challenging - however the interchange  of that Music XML might be one way of getting it started. 

I want to stay in the Cakewalk space - but without these contributions - it does make Cubase seem like a strong contender in pulling me into a new tool.

 

Until a chord track feature is implemented in Cakewalk, see this thread for a suggestion for displaying chord names - Multiple Arranger Tracks 

Chord track appears to be on their to-do list, so if the Cakewalk workflow best suits you, you may want to stand by.  However, there are no promises, so you should make your DAW decisions based on your requirements and what is currently available.

[Mark Mitchell]

On 12/7/2021 at 3:48 PM, pbognar said:

Until a chord track feature is implemented in Cakewalk, see this thread for a suggestion for displaying chord names - Multiple Arranger Tracks 

Chord track appears to be on their to-do list, so if the Cakewalk workflow best suits you, you may want to stand by.  However, there are no promises, so you should make your DAW decisions based on your requirements and what is currently available.

After making my post - I was out walking and the thought of re-using Arranger Track in this way came to mind.  Thanks for the pointer to this line of thinking as it confirmed my guess on one way to do it in the current version.   I will have to experiment to see how well it works. 

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

On 12/7/2021 at 8:48 PM, pbognar said:

Chord track appears to be on their to-do list, so if the Cakewalk workflow best suits you, you may want to stand by.  

Yes, Noel was asking for users to say how they thought it should work a little while ago.

[DallasSteve]

Is there any update on adding a chord track to Cakewalk?  Are there any work arounds like an third party add-on chord track?

[abacab]

1 hour ago, DallasSteve said:

Is there any update on adding a chord track to Cakewalk?  Are there any work arounds like an third party add-on chord track?

Haven 't seen any recent discussion on the topic.

Not likely to be a workaround for a DAW centered project chord track that all tracks in a project would respond to. But there are a few 3rd party plugins that will generate MIDI chord progressions that you can drag and drop into a project track.

Have you looked at Scaler 2 by Plugin Boutique? https://www.pluginboutique.com/product/3-Studio-Tools/93-Music-Theory-Tools/6439-Scaler-2

"Scaler 2 is an inspirational and powerful music theory workstation that gives you access to a world of new ideas, expressions and melodies. With powerful detection of MIDI and audio, Scaler 2 can determine what key and scale you’re in and suggest chords that match your music. The plugin helps you discover the perfect melody with performance expressions, and can even suggest ways to change from one key to another."

The main difference with using 3rd party tools is you need to build your song track by track around the same scale, rather than having a global track in the DAW where other tracks could follow along with any changes made within a single chord track.

Not an easy feature to implement at the DAW level!

[Jesse Wolfe]

I, too, would welcome the chord track.  Hope it didn't fall off the to-do list

I ended up here because I'm pretty frustrated with the chord editor in Staff View..  on my (decently equipped box) it takes like 10-12 seconds to open. And if you are entering a bunch of chords that is just too, too slow. Maybe if a true full featured chord track is going to be awhile, you could at least find ways to optimize opening that window, like if the user has indicated they aren't going to build the guitar chords, then the app doesn't load that code, and load it only if they happen to check the box to create guitar chords. Seems like an unusual engineering glitch that should be fixed.

My .02 for the chord track wish-list... personally, I would use it to sketch out chord progressions first and then improvise/record another track real time. To make this easier, the chords names need to be at least as large as the Arranger track labels so you could easily see what chords are coming. Marker labels are just too tiny. For now, I don't use the Arranger track for song sections so I could use them for the chord track.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Jesse Wolfe
Added info about current Chord entry in Staff View

[Mark Morgon-Shaw]

4 hours ago, Jesse Wolfe said:

My .02 for the chord track wish-list... personally, I would use it to sketch out chord progressions first and then improvise/record another track real time. To make this easier, the chords names need to be at least as large as the Arranger track labels so you could easily see what chords are coming. Marker labels are just too tiny. For now, I don't use the Arranger track for song sections so I could use them for the chord track.

That is very similar to what I was thinking, I already use an arranger track just to to label chord changes along the timeline. 

Having skimmed the entire thread again I've noticed nobody else really gave Noel much of an answer when he asked about how people would actually use it.

There seems to be a lot of talk about extracting chord info from pre-existing audio/midi rather than using it to create the chord track in the first place which would seem more important to me.      

Edited September 25, 2022 by Mark Morgon-Shaw

[abacab]

11 hours ago, Jesse Wolfe said:

My .02 for the chord track wish-list... personally, I would use it to sketch out chord progressions first and then improvise/record another track real time. To make this easier, the chords names need to be at least as large as the Arranger track labels so you could easily see what chords are coming. Marker labels are just too tiny.

Chord track is probably still on the to-do list, but probably not very high up. The devs are likely getting to the most requested feature requests first, as time and resources permit. As well as prioritizing the easier ones first as well, i.e., the "low hanging fruit".

In the meantime, go check out Scaler 2. It's probably the most feature rich plugin for sketching out chord progressions, and much more. Then just drag them into your Cakewalk tracks! Of course, you would still need workarounds for visualizing the chord changes in the Cakewalk timeline. See the Scaler 2 details here: https://www.scalerplugin.com/

The other DAW related stuff like an updated staff view is a different challenge. Probably another huge uphill climb. That's been on the to-do list since way back in the Sonar days.

As far as feedback here goes, I think that Noel and the other devs would need enough information from users to first develop a defined feature request "scope" for what is needed in Cakewalk, before even getting started on this. I think the lack of feedback here probably implies that this isn't the highest priority for the majority of CbB users.

[flangad]

On 11/16/2020 at 10:25 PM, pbognar said:

Thanks for popping in Mark.

The chords and symbols in the staff view are for display only with no effect on MIDI and are not visible in other views.

Pitch markers are cool, but they only work on the root note of a loop, so they don't affect individual notes in chords, e.g. major to minor chords, etc.  But they could be seen as a place holder for where chord track logic / display could go, but as you say, look more like the arranger.

The Cakewalk snap to scale track function leads me to believe that the logic to move MIDI notes around based on a parameter (scale or chord) exists and together with the pitch marker logic, could be used as the basis for a global chord track for MIDI.  There are also the chord analyzer and transpose MFX.

The chord track related functionality can be broken up into chord creation, display, detection from MIDI, affecting MIDI, detection from audio and affecting audio.  There are tools, like Scaler, which can do the heavy lifting of generating MIDI chords - but Cakewalk would need a way to import the results into the chord track (MIDI capture is already present).  Likewise, Melodyne with ARA 2, can analyze audio and generate a chord track, which could also be imported into a chord track (although working with polyphonic audio comes at a hefty price).

I don't want to speak for everyone, but I look at the chord track primarily as a song writing tool, providing a way to prototype compositions and ideally affect song affect song playback.  The current capabilities Cubase would be a great start, with the chord track affecting MIDI and monophonic audio.  Maybe ARA 2 / Melodyne Essential (or Editor if present) can be leveraged.

I totaly agree. This kind of feature... at least at the MIDI level, if possible at the audio level (but we all undertand it would be much more complex and could come later), is really something important to stay on par with the capabilities of the major  DAWs available. This is clearly a huge development  not easy for a free software, but it would be a very usefull add-on. I hope the cakawalk developer can work on this and bring us something in the next months.

[hadada]

In fact, it is now possible to implement simple chord tracks. Just download and copy them and delete those unwanted chords.

chord track

However, compared with studio one, it is still too simple.studio one chord track

just improve these points should be enough:

1 Easier to enter and edit more complex chords

2 Extract chords from midi tracks faster, Extract shortcut keys or automatic extraction.

3 It can also be displayed in the track view

4 Can be extracted without quantizing chords

5 Automatic Voice Leading like this: chord-player

Edited January 15, 2023 by hadada

[bryan57]

I personally think that, while the ideas in here about having Cakewalk automatically detect the chords, etc., are interesting, I think because the complications they bring to implementing them in Cakewalk is the reason we don't have a "chord track" yet, even though it was requested years ago.

I personally would be happy with just a second arranger track that appears below the main arranger track and serves to sub-divide the main sections. As with main arranger sections, I could manually type in sub-section names, and those names could just as well be chord labels. To keep it simple, no sub-section could overlap two or more main sections. This would be a true nesting of one level.  When a section of the main arranger track is moved or copied, the corresponding sub-sections of the second track are moved or copied with it. If a main section is made smaller or larger, any sub-sections at the boundaries would be cut or expanded as needed. 

And that's it.  I personally need no other functionality beyond this - no auto chord detection, etc.

Just having this functionality would be most welcome, even if I have to manually type in chord names, because it would allow me to harmonically orient where I am in the song. I often manually edit virtual midi instrument parts in Cakewalk, (either from scratch or from existing midi notes), and just knowing which chord I'm supposed to be on in a given measure would help immensely in choosing various alternative notes and placement, etc. Currently, I sometimes use the main arranger track to type in chord names, but it would be nice to have chord names and an indication of which part of the song I'm on. It would be nice to have both.

Implementing a second arranger section in this manner would be a "baby step" towards the more complicated functionality of auto-chord detection, global edits of chords, etc. As a "baby step", it would stand a better chance of being implemented in the not-so-distant future.

 

[hadada]

3 hours ago, bryan57 said:

I personally think that, while the ideas in here about having Cakewalk automatically detect the chords, etc., are interesting, I think because the complications they bring to implementing them in Cakewalk is the reason we don't have a "chord track" yet, even though it was requested years ago.

I personally would be happy with just a second arranger track that appears below the main arranger track and serves to sub-divide the main sections. As with main arranger sections, I could manually type in sub-section names, and those names could just as well be chord labels. To keep it simple, no sub-section could overlap two or more main sections. This would be a true nesting of one level.  When a section of the main arranger track is moved or copied, the corresponding sub-sections of the second track are moved or copied with it. If a main section is made smaller or larger, any sub-sections at the boundaries would be cut or expanded as needed. 

And that's it.  I personally need no other functionality beyond this - no auto chord detection, etc.

Just having this functionality would be most welcome, even if I have to manually type in chord names, because it would allow me to harmonically orient where I am in the song. I often manually edit virtual midi instrument parts in Cakewalk, (either from scratch or from existing midi notes), and just knowing which chord I'm supposed to be on in a given measure would help immensely in choosing various alternative notes and placement, etc. Currently, I sometimes use the main arranger track to type in chord names, but it would be nice to have chord names and an indication of which part of the song I'm on. It would be nice to have both.

Implementing a second arranger section in this manner would be a "baby step" towards the more complicated functionality of auto-chord detection, global edits of chords, etc. As a "baby step", it would stand a better chance of being implemented in the not-so-distant future.

 

You can already do this through my link. just open event list and only select articulation. You just need to click to know where the chord is.

[hadada]

I think chord tracks can really be like arranger tracks. When changing the chords of the chord track, instead of applying it, those midi notes should snap to those chords, so that midi notes even arpeggio of the whole bar can be changed by editing the chord track, so that different chord arrangements for a song can be quickly made and switched by Arrangements that similar to the arranger track.

[hadada]

There are some bugs. When you double-click it, the mouse will move randomly. Sometimes the mouse is stuck and can only move within a certain range. You need to press the win key to solve them.

But I found it really useful

[msmcleod]

We ship basic chord triads as articulations with CbB as standard, but these are there for convenience in the PRV and fall way short of a chord track.

A chord track, to my mind should:

1. Identify the chords within the existing audio/MIDI, allowing the user to correct them if necessary.
2. Allow the user to change chords within the chord track, and have this alter the chords within both the MIDI and audio - you should be able to exclude tracks from this process.
3. When changing chords, the chord picker should suggest alternative chords based on the current chord and key of the song.  Alternative chords should be presented in order of which is most closely related to the existing chord, to those most distant.

[Glenn Stanton]

4. allow use of arpeggiator effects (arp, strum, etc) on select chords ?