Please add a sampler to Cakewalk

[Maestro]

7 minutes ago, E-Woof Music said:

For example, if you want to use a step sequencer with any of these samplers, you would realize that the root notes do not match which means you have to manually do it.  

One can blame the sampler, but one can also say that the Step Sequencer can easily have a setting to set the Root Note.

8 minutes ago, E-Woof Music said:

I'm just saying that they are harder to use and would be an improvement with the "production workflow" in Cakewalk. 

I would never argue that an out-of-the-box Sampler (1st party) wouldn't achieve that.  I think the issue is balancing the priority of specific feature suggestions.  A sampler is something that can easily just be added to any DAW.  People have been adding Samplers to Pro Tools for years, and producing all types of music with it.  While I agree with the feature request, in essence, I don't agree with the type of urgency that seems to have been applied to it (nor do I think it is the killer feature that someone - not you, necessarily - think it will be).

Cakewalk already has a Matrix View that actually it closer to the creative side of DAWs like Live before other DAWs added in the feature.  It is still borderline impossible to "guerrilla market" the DAW based on this.  Though we can definitely say it was developed more thoroughly when DP and Logic added them in - they did so MUCH later.  People on forums like /r/MusicProduction and /r/EDMProduction are literally countering by telling people to use Ableton Live LITE instead of Cakewalk by BandLab, and people are doing so.

12 minutes ago, E-Woof Music said:

I'm saying that the new generation of producers are now mostly hip-hop and EDM producers.

No clarification needed, we have had this discussion here, before.  That is why Live and FL are so popular, and why DAWs like Studio One and Cubase are adding features that appeal to people producing electronic music.

14 minutes ago, E-Woof Music said:

Cakewalk is getting an influx of people who want to learn how to produce these genres. The workflow is simply harder than the other DAWs.

The workflow being harder for those other DAWs has little to do with the lack of a Sampler, IMHO.  Someone equally profient in both Cakewalk and FL Studio will throw beats together faster in FL Studio than in Cakewalk.  The entire workflow in FL Studio is designed for high productivity composition of that type of content.  On the flip side, FL Studio is a bad DAW if you want to record a band, etc.  Cakewalk complete trounces it, there.  I guess that's kind of my point.  The reality of the situation is that there is really no one killer feature that is causing people to go there instead of come here.  It's a combination of things that all add up into a total that is massive to those people.

20 minutes ago, E-Woof Music said:

That is why I am saying bring a sampler or a well optimized sampler which takes advantage of the features of Cakewalk would improve music production a lot. Cakewalk is already one of the best in terms of mixing. But you have to agree with me that it is not as good in producing these compared to other DAWs.

 

 

A Sampler won't make the Matrix View or Step Sequencer any better.  It won't give it better controller support.  It won't give it better drum map creation & management.  It won't give it MPE.  It won't give it a ton of Virtual Instruments/Synths/Samples/etc. that (in some cases) can replace popular software products that retail in the $99-200 range (Sampler, Wavetable, Operator, DrumSynths, etc.).  It won't give Cakewalk Live's famed Audio Warping.  So, we have to ask ourselves, what is more important?  It's a hard job, developing software for such a diverse audience of users ? 

As far as Cakewalk being "not good" for production, that depends on your reference.  If you're comparing it to something like ACID Pro or Pro Tools, then I think it's "not too bad."  If you compare it to the best of the best, then that clearly gives you a different perspective.  I think you need to view things in whole, not just as a comparison between the cream of the crop.

29 minutes ago, E-Woof Music said:

And also, you are telling me that an average person who is trying to get the most out of their money will pay for a sampler which the same price of a DAW that has good and usable plugins and a workflow which makes it easier for them to produce.

 

 

If they prefer the DAW they use, yes.  People do it all the time.  Look at every Pro Tools user who does Hip Hop, EDM, Trap, and other genres.  There are scores of them.  Also, there are quite a few people in Europe using Samplitude Pro for this type of production, and that DAW has even less tooling biased to those genres than Cakewalk.  They pay a lot for the DAW, buy the "software accessories," and go about their lives because they prefer to work in that DAW.

None of that will matter if you don't enjoy working in a specific environment, so people tend to prefer to supplement what they like than jump around just for one or two features - that's how many of us wasted thousands "trying out different DAWs" over the years ?  FL Studio has a workflow (and indeed, even a UX) that is polarizing.  People either like it or hate it.  I personally could never pay to use that software.  I find it impossible to work in, as it gets VERY messy.  Cakewalk, on other hand, is more like Logic Pro.  I like organization.

31 minutes ago, E-Woof Music said:

And also technically, Fl studio is less prone to crashes compared to Cakewalk.

 

 

Citation Needed™

34 minutes ago, E-Woof Music said:

Also, right now I can say that now more tutorials are been made for Cakewalk more than it was Sonar. It is currently less but I can say that in the future, many people will make more videos. I'm currently one of them. Those resources of tutorials etc can only increase if more people use it. Cakewalk isn't as well known compared to the others but I believe that if they keep on improving the DAW and more people make YouTube channels it can become as big as the popular DAWs.

 

 

This is normal.  The software is more accessible due to the lack of a price tag.  That is a good thing.  Cakewalk is very well known in the DAW market.  It just isn't as relevant in the market segments you've cited in your posts.

57 minutes ago, E-Woof Music said:

Cakewalk has the potential of bringing in new producers who came from Bandlab. I'm one of them and I know others who also had a similar experience. Cakewalk is quickly becoming a go to place. With every single update they make they are removing many of the reasons why people were discouraging Cakewalk. I just feel that this is going to help Cakewalk by catering to the new generation of producers which mostly want to make the songs that they hear on the radio(Hip-Hop, EDM, Pop, etc).

 

 

I hope so, because I think it's stupid to pay for a DAW when you're literally just starting out and don't even know what you want or need, yet.  Figuring out your personal requirements takes time.  Everything helps, especially when it's free.  Aforementioned, it's about balancing the priorities (for the Devs).

59 minutes ago, E-Woof Music said:

Articulation and Arranger is important. I was one of people who requested for articulation lanes there since I make film scores. Now Cakewalk is an awesome DAW for especially for making genres such as film Score . The issue is that for hip-hop, pop, and EDM, which are the popular music of the 21'st Century, they use the sampling workflow. A sampler has to be considered since it is so fundamental that I think this is something that Cakewalk should do next. Also, I'm really curious what other features you think Cakewalk should do next. 

 

 

Articulations were requested for years, but Cakewalk is known for not having the best Video Support, and people have been begging for updates/fixes to the Staff Editor since ever...  So, professionals who compose to film are still going to - largely - stay on DAWs like Cubase, Logic, and Digital Performer due to those being better suited for that kind of work.  Cakewalk can't even interchange AAF files from NLEs like Media Composer or Premiere Pro.

The lack of a Sampler is not what's keeping people off of Cakewalk.  There are probably 25 other features that cannot be replaced by a free plugin that will register higher in people's "need to have" list.

1 hour ago, E-Woof Music said:

I just want to make a point that a sampler does add value to the workflow of Cakewalk and brings more people to use it. 

No one is arguing that a sampler wouldn't add value.  I am arguing that adding one is not going to necessarily bring more people to use it, becausue the disparity in features between Cakewalk and something like FL and Ableton is more down to workflow and capabilities that cannot easily be replaced by a stock plugin.  Anyone who wants a Sampler in Cakewalk already has one that works fairly well.

Going back to:

1 hour ago, E-Woof Music said:

Also, I'm really curious what other features you think Cakewalk should do next. 

 

 

1 hour ago, E-Woof Music said:

I am open to hear where you think Cakewalk  should focus more on.

 

I'd like to see:

• Better Marker Management
• Better Tempo Editing
• Tempo, Marker Tracks
• Folder Nesting
• Improved Drum Map Creation/Management
• MusicXML Import
• Better Track Handling (Track Selection, for example, can use improvement - or rather, be made more intuitive)

More Ambitious:

• Chord Tools (Chord Track/Pads)
• VCA Faders
• Staff View/Editor Improvements
• Better Video Engine
• Sample Editor

[Xel Ohh]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

I'd like to see:

• Better Marker Management
• Better Tempo Editing
• Tempo, Marker Tracks
• Folder Nesting
• Improved Drum Map Creation/Management
• MusicXML Import
• Better Track Handling (Track Selection, for example, can use improvement - or rather, be made more intuitive)

More Ambitious:

• Chord Tools (Chord Track/Pads)
• VCA Faders
• Staff View/Editor Improvements
• Better Video Engine
• Sample Editor

These are good suggestions for sure I like all of them.. But the Sample Editor would be in the Sampler yes ..? I make Cakewalk videos myself and I get the question alot is why cant I use my drums in the piano roll and I have to say that Cakewalk does not come with a sampler you have to download .. So and so sampler.. And they get discouraged and most come back and say Im sticking with lite versions or trial version of other DAWs not saying that it will bring people but I think a Sampler is needed. I currently use many different samplers but would be nice to see one in cakewalk all the DAWs that I have used have a sampler of some sort in it even reaper has a sampler that can do glides and slides.. Lol.. ? just adding my 2 cents to this awesome convo that you guys are have .. Please continue.. +1 to add a sampler

[Maestro]

You can program drums in the Piano Roll, but that's kind of a different thing, anyways.  Even if they add a Sampler, those same people will stay on other DAWs because the Step Sequencer in DAWs like Studio One, Ableton, Reason, FL Studio, and others is so much better.

So, you'd be back to square one, asking for another thing "so you don't have to tell people Cakewalk doesn't do that and stop them from using Lite or Trial version of other DAWs."

Getting a better Step Sequencer and using a 3rd party Sampler is a far superior choice to getting a first party Sampler and sitting on the current Step Sequencer for another 2 years - during which Cakewalk's reputation as a "bad production DAW" will be further solidified.

15 hours ago, Xel Ohh said:

I get the question alot is why cant I use my drums in the piano roll and I have to say that Cakewalk does not come with a sampler you have to download ..

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Maestro

[chris.r]

On 12/12/2020 at 1:42 PM, Maestro said:

...  If the bakers spent all of their time adding features redundant with easily accessible plugins, then when are they actually going to get around to doing things like improving the Staff View, Adding VCAs, Improving Drum Maps, etc

So one would want the VCAs as a new feature in Cakewalk but not a sample track? Curious what, in your opinion, VCA should bring to the table in addition to busses, patch points, groups and quick groups, that we have already in Cakewalk?

Just wanted to point out that a sample track and a sampler, in my opinion, are not the same thing. A sample track is just a type of track with a built-in subset of sampler features that can significantly speed up the workflow in situations where you'd like to build many tracks from a single samples (or small sample sets) and will stay low on resources. Yes I think that staying low on resources should be one of the priorities for the sample track.

And same way a Scaler or other 3rd party chord plugins can't integrate deep enough into a DAW to the point where it would automatically change the pitch of the samples, a 3rd party sampler won't integrate as much as a proprietary sample track. A well thought out approach to introducing a sample track can open the DAW for a new exciting ideas in the future.

[Starship Krupa]

On 12/12/2020 at 5:42 AM, Maestro said:

Adding a first party Sampler isn't even the tip of the ice berg as far as getting "Live Kiddies" onto Cakewalk.  This is going to be like getting Recording Studios off of Pro Tools.  Good Luck.

This is true, but there's an assumption that the people who develop Cakewalk are concerned about "market share" or getting people to switch DAW's as the payware developers are.

What if the focus is on making Cakewalk better for the people who use it, whether new users or veterans?

People would like to have this workflow available. That's all there needs to be.

[chris.r]

18 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

This is true, but there's an assumption that the people who develop Cakewalk are concerned about "market share" or getting people to switch DAW's as the payware developers are.

What if the focus is on making Cakewalk better for the people who use it, whether new users or veterans?

People would like to have this workflow available. That's all there needs to be.

Absolutely +1. I wanted to say something around the lines but that's basically it. Let us ask for features that will serve ourselves, the users, and not the 'global reputation', in the first place.

Edited December 13, 2020 by chris.r

[Lord Tim]

Yeah, I have to agree with the sentiment here. I think the features that are being prioritised are ones that benefit ALL of us rather than a subset of users. And if I was a dev looking for stuff to do, @Maestro's list is a solid one. For the record, I'm not at all opposed to adding in things like samplers and that kind of stuff - I'd certainly use them, and for those people who rely on that kind of thing, it would be great to have, and would be a fantastic addition to CbB.

But this is now free software, and as yet none of the paid add-ons are up for sale. If Bandlab were aiming for a huge market share or to recoup their investment, they're either the WORST businessmen ever (which seems unlikely given what the company is worth) or they have a completely different plan to what paid/subscription software usually does.

At the end of the day, why force something to work how you want it to? A Ferrari might be fast, but if you need to take 25 kids to a soccer game, you're probably going to get the job done faster in a mini-bus, even though the other vehicle would run rings around it in a race. CbB is a fantastic DAW that can easily take you from nothing to final master, with some workflows that are superior to other DAWs, and others that are sorely lagging. Just like every DAW.

There's no rule you have to use just the one DAW, right? You wouldn't use a multiband compressor to EQ a mix - sure, you can, but an actual EQ plugin is far better suited to the task. A DAW isn't really that different to using a different plugin to achieve the goal when you think about it.

[Maestro]

39 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

This is true, but there's an assumption that the people who develop Cakewalk are concerned about "market share" or getting people to switch DAW's as the payware developers are.

What if the focus is on making Cakewalk better for the people who use it, whether new users or veterans?

People would like to have this workflow available. That's all there needs to be.

 

 

 

 

Aforementioned, my participation in this thread is only to discuss further and get people to dive deep into the why's of the feature request, as this is useful to the developers when they choose what features to implement - and why.

Not to give the impression that I don't think it should be added.

Discussion is fun ? 

I don't think the people who develop Cakewalk are concerned about Market Share, personally.

The conversation only veered in that direction because a few people had made statements to that effect, and I though it was worth addressing due to how weak of a basis it is for developing a feature.  Logically, the CbB developers should prioritize features of their current user base, not fictional converts.  The users that are here are the only users guaranteed to use the feature.  We cannot guarantee that people will leave other DAWs for this one feature, especially when some of us do produce this music and have a much more (for lack of a better word) educated view on the disparities that cause people to go to those other DAWs over Cakewalk ? 

Also, DAW choice has become like politics, these days.  Converting people is not as easy as one thinks, and people often get very defensive when you challenge (or question) their choice of production software.

EDIT: Clarity.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Maestro

[Xel Ohh]

8 hours ago, Maestro said:

You can program drums in the Piano Roll, but that's kind of a different thing, anyways.  Even if they add a Sampler, those same people will stay on other DAWs because the Step Sequencer in DAWs like Studio One, Ableton, Reason, FL Studio, and others is so much better.

You actually cannot add audio to the piano roll not sure how your are able to do this and no one else is..? but yea people will choose what they wantI havent used studio one step sequencer but I know that Cakewalk step sequencer is better than reason.. And abletons.. FL is the easiest to use so not sure where you are going with this..?

[Maestro]

32 minutes ago, Xel Ohh said:

You actually cannot add audio to the piano roll not sure how your are able to do this and no one else is..? but yea people will choose what they want

 

 

 

I know this.  I made the assumption that you probably weren't referring to drum kits in my response.   Use Komplete Kontrol if you want to edit and play chromatically ?

Quote

I havent used studio one step sequencer but I know that Cakewalk step sequencer is better than reason.. And abletons.. FL is the easiest to use so not sure where you are going with this..?

 

 

 

Not quite.  Sequencers and pattern editors in software like Logic Pro X, Studio One, and others have gotten huge upgrades in recent times.  Ableton's is better.  FL was built for this stuff.  Cakewalk is not the worst.  Pro Tools, Samplitude, and a few other DAWs are pretty terrible for this kind of stuff.

However, several other DAWs have improved immensely in this area, because they are moving in that direction to gain more users.

The Drum Editor can also use some improvements, as well.  I can do things in the Cubase Drum Editor that are impossible in either the Cakewalk Drum Editor (Piano Roll with a Drum Map Applied) or its Step Sequencer.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Maestro