Cakewalk and Reaper which one and Why?

[Teegarden]

1 hour ago, Will_Kaydo said:

The reverb sounded more darker projecting a "fuller" sound - in Cakewalk there's a roll-off in the low end of the reverb and boost in highend giving it a thinner-but-shimmering "aka" gloss/air sound to it. Compression are more sensitive. 

So basically what I'm asking, is - Does this have to do with the headroom differences between the two? Cakewalk db boost goes up to +6db, where reaper is at 12db boost.  

Maybe something like this could provide you with an answer: Gainmatch (I discovered it through a feedback request post from feedback request post from Niko Panunggal)

The website lists several common problems:

• Does It Sound Better, Or Just Louder?
• Have you ever seen a plugin that sounds so much better when you put it on?
  And later discovered that it just adds 1 dB of gain on everything?
• Or maybe a new compressor, that has a fixed 2 dB steps output knob?
  So that comparing before and after is a pain?
• Or maybe a saturation plugin with no output gain, so that it's almost unusable?

   Seems to me that it might address many of the discussed issues in this topic

Edited December 3, 2020 by Teegarden

[Will.]

1 hour ago, LarsF said:

Hmmm....somebody correct me if I am wrong....

Whatever headroom there is I assume is adjusted for from start of a daw project. If you have +6 dB headroom, you from start adjusted down all levels 6 dB from start, or you would have nowhere to go when boosting. 0 dBFs is ceiling in the end, now adjusted to be -6 dBFs.

From 0db up to the highest DB on the meter reading. In cakewalk this goes up to 6db - that's your headroom. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Will_Kaydo

[Will.]

1 hour ago, Teegarden said:

Seems to me that it might address many of the discussed issues in this topic

This is lost in argument.

I don't even know what my original question was anymore. 

[LarsF]

1 hour ago, Will_Kaydo said:

From 0db up to the highest DB on the meter reading. In cakewalk this goes up to 6db - that's your headroom. 

Yes, and it's not just about setting a number on the faders or meters - internally you have to adjust since digital has a max number limit.

12 dB that is 4 times up from 0 dBFs. So number cranking inside has to handle this.

If you have a 24-bit file of samples, that peak at 0dBFs(meaning integers inside are +/- 8 miljon), and load that together with others you cannot boost that 6 dB and store again(it would be +/- 16 miljon). So some clever processing is going on how you treat it. My assumption was that it is treated as being +/- 4 miljon(down 6 dB if headroom is 6 dB), which leaves room for 6 dB boost without overs.

I described what I think they do internally - and how it might affect what goes into plugins as well - which could change sound. Especially if some non-linear thing is going on.

 

But as many stated - just having a loudness difference of 1-2 dB is enough for ears to perceive differently in frequency content. So my theory might be off regarding headroom thingy.....

Edited December 3, 2020 by LarsF

[InstrEd]

1 hour ago, pwalpwal said:

i think this stuff only becomes an issue when you start comparing daws... "if it sounds right it is right" - -if you prefer the sound of one over another, use the one you prefer life's too short

But, but, but this is the internet. It was born so folks could hide out in the basement and argue about the little of stuff and call people names
Like I want to use Reaper but I'm afraid of "The Reaper"   

[mdiemer]

CONCLUSION: (Quoted from Lord Tim)

When tracks are panned center CbB nulls either completely or very close to 100% with REAPER. The minor difference betwen multitrack mixes can be down to rounding (ie: the exported files were 24 bit / 44.1Khz vs an internal 32 bit or 64 bit mixing engine, so the more tracks imported, the more there will be differences as they're mixed together). In modern pop/rock/metal/hiphop/etc music, apart from very quiet sections or the end of reverb tails, in real-world use, this is going to be practically inaudible.

This then could be the reason for the discrepancy between how my large orchestral project sounded in Reaper vs. CbB. when you're doing 50 or so midi tracks, those small differences can really add up.

[InstrEd]

Really if I was younger with more brain cells I would want to tackle Reaper more in depth for all it has to offer. But alas the little free time I have I rather actually be a musician and not an audio engineer.  Reaper is one heck of a DAW. Mean and lean is Reaper and I have to give Justin and company credit but it doesn't seem to click for me.

[Teegarden]

3 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

This is lost in argument.

I don't even know what my original question was anymore. 

This was your argument:

"Am I mistakenly to find that Reaper projects the sound differently than Cakewalk? My plugins sounds way fuller in Reaper. I really don't know how to explain it - but have anyone experience something like this? I hear compression better, the plugins are more sensitive there as what it is in CbB. The same with a Reverb - it sounds more true and natural than what it does in CbB. This is the same for every plugin. 

I use the same plugins in both and in CbB and there's a highly noticeable difference."

I merely pointed you to a possible tool that could help you figure out what is really going on i.e. different DAWs have different settings which also goes for the plugins in those DAWs.

Just try a tool like this (there are similar tools as well) and maybe the other DAWs and the plugins in those DAWs don't sound so different after all. And this kind of tool seems to help getting faster and better mixing results.

[Xoo]

3 hours ago, mdiemer said:

CONCLUSION: (Quoted from Lord Tim)

When tracks are panned center CbB nulls either completely or very close to 100% with REAPER. The minor difference betwen multitrack mixes can be down to rounding (ie: the exported files were 24 bit / 44.1Khz vs an internal 32 bit or 64 bit mixing engine, so the more tracks imported, the more there will be differences as they're mixed together). In modern pop/rock/metal/hiphop/etc music, apart from very quiet sections or the end of reverb tails, in real-world use, this is going to be practically inaudible.

This then could be the reason for the discrepancy between how my large orchestral project sounded in Reaper vs. CbB. when you're doing 50 or so midi tracks, those small differences can really add up.

Not knowing the exact amount CbB attenuates by, but could it be the difference (when adding up multiple tracks) between 3dB attenuation and a more accurate 3.01dB?

db = 20 * log10(amplitude)

But it can be cheaper (in terms of CPU) to calculate 6.02 * log2(amplitude), where 6.02 ~= 20 * log10(2)) *

* log10(2) = 0.301029996, 20 x log10(2) = 6.020599913

Or different tapers on the pan law (remember CbB - and SONAR before it - can do sin/cos as well as square root)?

[azslow3]

13 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Yep. I always do this. 

? I've checked for these too. I have my fair share of knowledge. 

Try it yourself.

As you can guess, when I was writing ReaCWP I was also checking the result. So on my own I always could Null (down to reasonable level) whatever I have thought has to null.

Your question can be solved scientific way: upload 2 projects, so CWP and RPP, with the same example audio and free compressor which sound/does something differently. And let people explain the difference.

If you can (have time/internet/have the place), also render and upload the results which are different. It can be something apart from projects producing that (but don't be surprised rendered output is different from what you hear, in that case please try to "render" playback using audio loopback).

Just to make it clear. I am convinced plug-ins are working differently for you,  it is not imagination nor "0.1dB". I simply try to pin from where it comes, in case you are interested. But there are so many variables that guessing in the thread is not productive.

 

[mdiemer]

3 hours ago, Kevin Perry said:

Not knowing the exact amount CbB attenuates by, but could it be the difference (when adding up multiple tracks) between 3dB attenuation and a more accurate 3.01dB?

db = 20 * log10(amplitude)

But it can be cheaper (in terms of CPU) to calculate 6.02 * log2(amplitude), where 6.02 ~= 20 * log10(2)) *

* log10(2) = 0.301029996, 20 x log10(2) = 6.020599913

Or different tapers on the pan law (remember CbB - and SONAR before it - can do sin/cos as well as square root)?

Uh, okay, if you say so. (In other words, this is way over my head).