MIDI Pan when using JUMP doesn't get rendered to MP3 or WAVE export

[JohnK]

I have an old project where I have a snare on its own MIDI channel, which has a MIDI envelope on pan which basically mimics a left-right ping-pong delay. When I play the project in Cakewalk, it all sounds as expected. However, when I export it to MP3 or Wave, the panning is ignored. Below is a screen shot of the events and track, and then of the export options.

Have I done something wrong? As I said, it is an old project, and the last time exported it from Sonar, the panning is clearly in the MP3.

NB: In the above screenshot, its only the events up to bar 3:02:000 that matter

and the export options I use.

Edited September 5, 2020 by JohnK
edited the title with new info its a JUMP envelope that fails

[Nigel Mackay]

What are settings for the synth?

[JohnK]

Thats a really broad open question. Which "settings" in particular are you interested in? The synth actually has a visible knob for pan, and I can also see (as well as hear) the pan being applied.

Its a 64b VSTi, BassMIDIVsti, which is a soundfont player.

The big buggy thing is, that it plays exactly as expected in Cakewalk (i.e. the pan is heard), but does not render the Pan automation. So why would they differ? I select everything before exporting.

hmmm.... that maybe thats the issue. Maybe by selecting what to render, the pan is not rendered... Its getting late here, so I will do some tests tomorrow. But feel free to ask more questions.

 

[Nigel Mackay]

That is the sort of settings I was referring to. What is rendered?

[JohnK]

13 hours ago, Nigel Mackay said:

That is the sort of settings I was referring to. What is rendered?

First to answer your question. I "think" its panned to one side. I'm not using headphones, and there's other stuff going on, so its hard to tell.

[JohnK]

OK, i think I have honed in on the issue, and can duplicate it (or make it work) using TTS1, and a single MIDI track playing 1 note 4 times.

1.  Start a new project
2. delete all default tracks
3. Add a TTS1 VSTi instance
4. Add a MIDI track and set it to use TTS1 Channel 1, and select Clav as the patch
5. Add 4 short notes in rapid succession (see screenshot below for details) using Piano Roll, all the same note
6. Create an Envelope for pan, as shown below using jumps.

When I press play, it sounds as expected in cakewalk; notes pan left and right and left again. However, when I export the audio, it does not switch left to right to left. I think it switches only once.test_panenvelope.mp3

The first time I did it with longer notes, it worked when rendered to MP3. So I tried my VSTi (BassMidiVsti) and that also worked however, when i shortened the notes and their duration (to more closely mimic the failing project), all of a sudden, it stopped working (i.e. missing pan on export to MP3 or Wave). I went back to TTS1 and it too failed to render the pan on short quick notes. So its not the VSTi.

I also tried reducing the tempo down from 120 to 60, thinking that would be the same as longer/slower notes (which did work on my first attempt), but it still failed.

Additionally on an unrelated angle, when I look at the events, it appears one node of my envelope is missing in the events?

Edited September 4, 2020 by JohnK

[Nigel Mackay]

Works as expected with me. WAV and MP3. Has to be the software you are using to play the files.

Add another synth and MIDI and create a stereo mix. No automation, just one hard left and the other hard right. Export. I bet you it will be "mono" when you listen to it.

[JohnK]

No. The MP3 as I linked above clearly starts on the left (ie its stereo), plays 3 notes on the left, and then switches hard right on the last note. It should switch between left and right on each note. I get the same if I play with either windows media player or VLC or MPV. So it does switch left & right at least once, just not after each note as it should. Additionally, the old generated MP3 of the original track plays left and right, which is how I noticed it when comparing; I was checking for general instrumentation and mix changes on an old SONAR project. Are you saying when YOU play the MP3's I attached above, that its alternating panning on each note? That would be the case if its the player was at fault and the rendered MP3 was correct.

Also, if you remember I said I tried it the first time and it worked, when using longer slower notes, that DID pan left and right as expected. Listen to the attached using a flute

testpanenvelope_working.mp3

If you say its the software I am  using to play the files, then the generated MP3 of yours, should not play correctly either. Please attach your test rendered.

Its definitely NOT my player(s), but a problem with rendering. The question is if its something specific to my set-up or a general failure.

[Nigel Mackay]

Your upload plays as expected:   L   R   L

Mine plays as expected: C  R  L  R    120bpm and 360bpm

Fast.mp3            Slow.mp3

 

[JohnK]

30 minutes ago, Nigel Mackay said:

Your upload plays as expected:   L   R   L

Mine plays as expected: C  R  L  R    120bpm and 360bpm

Fast.mp3 10.2 kB · 0 downloads             Slow.mp3 28.16 kB · 0 downloads

 

Yes, the last one I uploaded was the working one, that plays L-R-L. However, the original one plays L-L-L-R when it should be L-R-L-R

Also, as I said/showed in the screenshot of about the 3rd post above, the tempo does NOT appear to affect if it fails or not, it appears to be related to the duration & rate of the notes. So changing the tempo is NOT duplicating my issue. I played your MP3 files and yes, they do pan as you expect. Which further proves its not my players. The proof is in the generated MP3 file I attached to the about the third post above (not the working one that I posted last). And here it is again. It should be L-R-L-R but it is L-L-L-R 

I also did another test out of interest, where I converted my envelope to MIDI controller events, and that worked as expected. So it is specific to the envelope.

test_panenvelopefail.mp3

Edited September 4, 2020 by JohnK

[JohnK]

Actually, here is a MIDI file. Add the panning envelope (as I did above. not via MIDI controller) with each note alternating L-R-L-R. And render that out to MP3.

test_panenveloperendertomp3.mid

[Nigel Mackay]

Here you are.Plays L R L R for me.

Imported test.mp3

[Nigel Mackay]

A thought occurred to me. Check that the pan event occurs before the note is played. This is MIDI, so pan only works at Note On. This is what my track looks like.

[JohnK]

thats one of the reasons I posted the screen shot with the EVENT LIST which clearly shows the pan is before the note on. 

 

One thing I do notice in your image that you did differently, is that I used a Jump (also clearly visible in my above post) whereas you used a Line. I'll check if that makes a difference for me, but even if it does, it would still be a bug if the Jump does not work the same.

[Nigel Mackay]

Don't know how to add a Jump. ?

 

Very short notes.

Short.mp3

Edited September 4, 2020 by Nigel Mackay

[JohnK]

Yep, that made the difference. So its the Jump envelope curve that does not work when rendering to MP3. That's why yours worked, and mine did not. 

I set it to linear and did the export it worked. I changed it back to jump, and it failed!

[Nigel Mackay]

Report it as a bug. Might be a known bug.

[JohnK]

3 minutes ago, Nigel Mackay said:

Don't know how to add a Jump. ?

 

Its a little finiky. The easiest way to explain it is,  move your points so you get a slight gradient, then right click on the line and select jump. You will end up with extra points, so delete the ones you do not need anymore. Jump is the more efficient way if you do not need a gradient between the two points. Which when panning hard left to hard right and vice versa, is the appropriate envelope.

[JohnK]

Just now, Nigel Mackay said:

Report it as a bug. Might be a known bug.

Now that I have fine tuned its repeatability, and how it could be accidentally sidestepped, I will report it as a bug. I didn't do it as a bug first, as it seemed like such a basic thing that I assumed I was doing something wrong, or very unique (eg my export options) that was triggering the fail and it worked in Sonar. Instead of a simple switch between Linear and Jump on the envelope curve. Thanks for helping clear that up.?