Arps won't export to audio properly

[Ma'azouk]

Hi all

I've been having this weird problem for a while now.

Whenever I try to use more than one instance of an Arp in Cakewalk it plays fine in Cakewalk, but when I export to a wav file, either the arps don't play at all, or the sound is changed in some way, for example, the sound is without reverb from the synth.

I have tried using Blue Arp and Cthulu and get the same results for both Arps. i have tried various synths.

It seems similar to this problem http://forum.cakewalk.com/Sonar-export-issue-SOLVED-m3289179.aspx which doesn't actually seem to be solved.

The key seems to be that Cakewalk is exporting something different to what I hear on the Master Bus, even if I choose to export just the Master Bus!

I love Cakewalk, Blue Arp and Cthulu but this is driving me nuts!!

Please can someone help...

Cheers

[Kurre]

Ok. So i did a test with a new project containing 3 instances of Blue Arp and 3 instances of Surge (vst3).

Track1 - Blue Arp1 - my midikeyboard with channel1 as input - "none" as output. Blue Arp gui - arp mode on - midi in ch1 - midi out ch1.

Track2 - Blue Arp2 - my midikeyboard with channel1 as input - "none" as output. Blue Arp gui - arp mode on - midi in ch1 - midi out ch2.

Track3 - Blue Arp3 - my midikeyboard with channel1 as input - "none" as output. Blue Arp gui - arp mode on - midi in ch1 - midi out ch3.

Track4 - Surge1 - Blue Arp1, ch1 as input - "master" as output.

Track5 - Surge2 - Blue Arp2, ch2 as input - "master" as output.

Track6 - Surge3 - Blue Arp3, ch3 as input - "master" as output.

All three Blue Arps got the same notes from my midikeyboard. Selected different patterns for all three Blue Arps. All played fine thru their Surge.

Record armed track 4-5-6 and then clicked record and played some notes for approx 30 seconds. All three tracks had recorded midi in them and played back fine.

I cut the empty bit in the beginning of all three tracks.

I muted track 1-2-3 and bounced track4-5-6 to track 7. It's now a pure audiotrack. It played back fine.

I muted track 1-2-3-4-5-6 and selected track 7 and did an export to wav.

I dragged it in from the mediabrowser to my added audiotrack 8. It played fine. Switching between the exported audio and the bounced audio on track7 or the midifiles recorded on track 4-5-6 confirmed that they sounded identical.

Bonus info: I never did a save on the project until now. I got to think it could be wise to have some proof if someone questions my result.

Hopefully you can use this info to figure out where you went wrong.

[Ma'azouk]

Hi Kurre

Thanks for putting this down, it's really helpful ? 

But still weird...! I've copied all your routings - just using two instances to keep things simple, but Cakewalk won't bounce my arp driven synths to audio. (Using the bounce to track option, right?) BUT I can bounce another *regular* VST track to audio no problem.

But it gets even weirder...when I try to bounce my arp tracks to audio, an audio file appears in the media inspector window as you would expect, then it disappears and nothing is bounced to audio!!

Can I ask....are you able to export your project to audio straight off, without any bouncing? And the arps play as they should in the rendered file?

Cheers.

PS Surge is awesome, huh?

[Ma'azouk]

So, I can get one arped synth to bounce to audio track, so I know that's working. When I get another synth in, it doesn't work.

[Kurre]

I always drag my plugins from the browser to the empty track pane. It then becomes an instrumenttrack. Both Blue Arp and Surge use instrumenttracks.

Input echo button is on for all tracks. I'll use mute when i don't want any output from a track.

When i save i also change from the default 32-bit to 24-bit audio. I don't know why it's 32-bit as default. I always setup audio as 24-bit 44.1 khz. I surely must have missed that change sometimes but all saved wav handles ok so i don't waste time with starting an investigation.

Workspaces is set to "none". Ripple edit is set to off.

Can I ask....are you able to export your project to audio straight off, without any bouncing? And the arps play as they should in the rendered file?

Yes. I opened the project. Let all input echo be on for all tracks 1-8. Muted all tracks but the ones with recorded midi, Surge instrumenttracks  4-5-6. Selected only track 4-5-6 and it exported fine but this time the resulting wav file differs a tiny bit. It's almost the same but not identical to the first exported wav.

Surge is my favorite software synth. ?

[Kurre]

Maybe it's worth noting that i always start a new project with the basic template. Those two tracks either remains but empty or as with this project i delete the empty audio and midi track to save room in the display.

[Kurre]

This is my export audio window.

I've used "entire mix" and dithering "none" for all my exports up to now.

[Kurre]

Picture of this project.

[Ma'azouk]

Hi, thanks again for all your help. I've tried each suggestion but still no joy though i'm afraid. 

I can't help thinking it's a midi channel routing issue as the problems only happens when I put more than one instance of BlueArp in a project. Perhaps I need to study the midi routing in Cakewalk a bit more.

One thing I don't understand. In your example, why does each instance of BlueArp have a different midi ch out, but the same midi ch in?

Cheers ?

[57Gregy]

As a test, try Bounce to Tracks instead of freezing. See if it sounds correct in the bounced track.
If so,  you can archive the original tracks.

[Kurre]

2 hours ago, Ma'azouk said:

Hi, thanks again for all your help. I've tried each suggestion but still no joy though i'm afraid. 

I can't help thinking it's a midi channel routing issue as the problems only happens when I put more than one instance of BlueArp in a project. Perhaps I need to study the midi routing in Cakewalk a bit more.

One thing I don't understand. In your example, why does each instance of BlueArp have a different midi ch out, but the same midi ch in?

Cheers ?

 

Blue Arp needs midinotes on its input. Ctrl-c is my midi keyboard and as most it defaults to channel 1 for its output. I  don't use "omni" to try to avoid it picking up unwanted notes. Omni input reacts to all midi on all channels.
I wanted the same note going to all arps and keep them in sync that way. Then i change the pattern for the arps one at a time to find three different patterns that work together.
The output channel in the arp makes sure that the arp goes to only the synth that use the same input channel.
When a note plays on arp1 it's only the synth with input arp1 channel1 that sounds.
When a note plays on arp2 it's only the synth with input arp2 channel2 that sounds.
When a note plays  on arp3 it's only the synth with input arp3 channel3 that sounds.
This is how i make three synths work independently with midi software. And it's semi-synced in the way that all arps reacts at the same time when a new note is played.

Sure, you can set the arps output to the same channel and select the arp nr.x as input on the synth.
My method feels a bit more secure with the extra layer of the routing.

You do know that selecting the same arp to more than one synth probably could give symptoms like you describe?

[Ma'azouk]

I've definitely got a separate arp for each synth and the arp out is routed to the synth input in each case.  It must be a midi routing issue though...what a pain! I don't understand how it doesn't export even though it sounds fine in Cakewalk itself. If it comes out if the master bus correctly, how can it export incorrectly? I just don't get it!

[user 905133]

17 minutes ago, Ma'azouk said:

I've definitely got a separate arp for each synth and the arp out is routed to the synth input in each case.  It must be a midi routing issue though...what a pain! 

The other day, I only tested one software synth I have and was able to export two arps.  I have not yet tested any others, but while it could be a midi routing issue with/within Cakewalk, it could be a function of (a) a specific software synth, (b) what a specific software synth "exposes", and/or (c) how Cakewalk treats those parameters, among other related issues.

Not disagreeing that it must be a midi routing issue, just trying to identify possible sources for the problem. 

Over the past six or seven months I have been trying (without success) to get Cakewalk's Inspector-based Arpeggiator to do what I want and only recently discovered that there appears to have been some midi routing decisions made that impact where remote control midi data [aka midi learn data] gets sent (or not sent).  So far I have not been able to find a midi routing/signal map/flow chart comparable to the level of the audio signal flow chart. Something like that might help many people sort out midi-related issues, including those related to automation. 

Edited July 11, 2020 by User 905133
to add, "including those related to automation."

[Jan]

I've had the same issue back in 2018. I had three instances of BlueARP targetting different VST instances. Played just fine, but nothing in the mixdown. Any ideas if this has been fixed/resolved in newer versions of Cakewalk? If not (given that 2021.09 is getting some improvements to how exporting audio works) perhaps we could bring it to the devs' attention? Or perhaps make a feature request for native support of VST MIDI (note generating) plugins (so that we don't need to do all this magic with extra tracks and "wiring")?