Does it make sense to use compressor at master bus

[Gswitz]

@Craig Anderton are you meaning live streaming or all streaming?

I'm curious why it is different.

[Lord Tim]

Quite a lot of the streaming services (Spotify, YouTube Music, Apple, etc) have the levels adjusted to a common listening level now, so in the past you'd want to have your track as loud as possible to stand out from the rest of the music you're listening to, but now the streaming services will simply turn it down if you've mastered it too hot.

Check this link out for a better explanation: https://www.masteringthemix.com/blogs/learn/76296773-mastering-audio-for-soundcloud-itunes-spotify-and-youtube

Of course, if you want to slam the compressor and limiter on the master for artistic reasons, then absolutely have at it! Some music really does benefit from a heavily compressed mix (some really does NOT at all). But there's really no good reason to do it to be competitive if your goal is the streaming platforms.

[Craig Anderton]

5 hours ago, Gswitz said:

@Craig Anderton are you meaning live streaming or all streaming?

I'm curious why it is different.

Tim explained it well. Note that there isn't a standard for streaming used across all platforms, but they're "close enough." I still use some degree of dynamics processing for the master to get a certain "sound," but I don't have to concern myself with competing with other songs on a playlist that are much louder.

[Starship Krupa]

22 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

bus compression on the master can "glue" (whatever that means!) tracks together

"Glue" means that it helps the diverse sounds that are being mixed together at the bus sound more like they are coming from the same imaginary source.

Compressor off=some things poke out, some things are kinda loose, some things maybe don't feel completely in time with the others. Compressor on=poky things are brought in, loose things firmed up a bit, timing feels lined up a little closer, all these different things move together (assuming the compressor is set up correctly!). If there is "character" in the form of noise and distortion and non-linear frequency response, all of the elements are treated with that same character. What was separate recordings of instruments becomes a bundle delivered through this process that lets them share similar dynamics and sonic footprint.

That's bus compressor glue. Too little and it doesn't come together, too much and the elements lose their individuality.

One of my theories of mixing is that my goal is to create a picture. I should be able to close my eyes and "see" a good mix, it should create a cohesive sense of place and space in the listener's mind, even if it's a place that could never actually exist. The bus compressor helps the sounds that are coming into the bus sound like they plausibly belong to the space I'm trying to create.

[mdiemer]

Been following this thread with interest. It's great to get such expert opinions on this rather mysterious subject. I'm currently trying to improve my orchestral mixes, which is really tricky. For a compressor, I've been putting the Sonitus on the mix or master bus. I find that the Vintage Neve or Complete Mix presets seem to work best for me, but in trying to make my own settings, I have not been able to do anything that helps (although I have had great success making it much worse). What did help was this: I took the Vintage Neve preset, changed "type" from normal to vintage, and put the TCR button on. Amazingly, these small changes resulted in noticeable improvement. I have no idea why, but it did help. Just thought I'd share that.

[Craig Anderton]

On 5/30/2020 at 12:06 PM, Starship Krupa said:

"Glue" means that it helps the diverse sounds that are being mixed together at the bus sound more like they are coming from the same imaginary source.

I know what glue means, I just think it's kind of a silly word. BTW for "glue" compression, I prefer to use two compressors in series, set to very low compression ratios and with high thresholds. 

Pages 179-180 in The Huge Book of Cakewalk by BandLab Tips describe how to do this, but if you don't have the book, I did a post in the Presonus blog about how to use compressors in this way with Studio One. The basic settings translate to the Sonitus compressors. 

[Starship Krupa]

12 minutes ago, Craig Anderton said:

I know what glue means, I just think it's kind of a silly word. BTW for "glue" compression, I prefer to use two compressors in series, set to very low compression ratios and with high thresholds. 

Pages 179-180 in The Huge Book of Cakewalk by BandLab Tips describe how to do this, but if you don't have the book, I did a post in the Presonus blog about how to use compressors in this way with Studio One. The basic settings translate to the Sonitus compressors. 

I knew you knew what it meant, I mean, you're you. ? I just had polished off a glass of iced coffee and really wanted to riff on my "sense of place" thing. I think I need to get it out in essay/article form. It's an odd term, but then, using a single word to describe something that's such a complex feeling/sensation like that is kind of inherently silly no matter what word is chosen? The bus compressor is giving the tracks coming in and leaving a sense of cohesion, belonging, unity....I picture sound coming from a room, it has the character of the room.

I don't know if I've ever read that tip in an article on mixing, to close your eyes and see if your mix creates a clear image in your mind.

Been listening to David Tipper's latest album and that man creates holograms, what he does between two speakers is astonishing, like the "id monster" from Forbidden Planet  could appear. Up, down, front, back, total control of sound placement. I get that it's got something to do with delay, and mimicking reflections and tiny differences, but I don't know what yet. He's in complete control of every sound on those recordings and it's all electronic, yet it creates the most believable synthetic space.

[Jon White]

On 5/31/2020 at 5:47 PM, mdiemer said:

Been following this thread with interest. It's great to get such expert opinions on this rather mysterious subject. I'm currently trying to improve my orchestral mixes, which is really tricky. For a compressor, I've been putting the Sonitus on the mix or master bus. I find that the Vintage Neve or Complete Mix presets seem to work best for me, but in trying to make my own settings, I have not been able to do anything that helps (although I have had great success making it much worse). What did help was this: I took the Vintage Neve preset, changed "type" from normal to vintage, and put the TCR button on. Amazingly, these small changes resulted in noticeable improvement. I have no idea why, but it did help. Just thought I'd share that.

I grew up listening to every genre you could find at Oberlin College's Finney Chapel.  From Dizzy to folks no one here would believe (classical artist prodigies and intelligent rock gods -- although the night a certain complex artist named Patti rocked a deliberate urination out on stage, that was tested).  I was privileged with fun at studios once in college and since have loved recording.  My first Cakewalk was in DOS, I always joke.

I have a conviction.  It is that not one performance I've ever seen and relished and absorbed with human being had compression on the stage image.  Sure, various artists in rock and fusion may have had pedals and such compressing their stuff, and various house mixes of more modern music may have had something going on like compression, too.  But the stage, at least in classical, delivered the instruments without compression and the inclinations behind it.  It was open air and truth in conveyance.  I'd minimize compression in classical as an imperative, and I challenge it as the future in any music once we humans morph a bit more into nature.

[Craig Anderton]

23 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I don't know if I've ever read that tip in an article on mixing, to close your eyes and see if your mix creates a clear image in your mind.

That's a good tip. I describe something similar in books and seminars, where I recommend people plan out in advance  where they want the instruments to sit in the audio image (left/right but also front/back), like the way theatrical actors have "marks" for where they're supposed to stand in relationship to the stage.

[Starise]

Interesting read. 

I try to remind myself that any time I use compression it plays with dynamics. I know that should be a pretty straight forward thought, but it helps me to see it that way since often when people use compressors they  might be trying to do something else, like make the material louder. For me that isn't  the goal.

I was recently reminded of this when I worked on a live broadcast pushed out to a social media channel. The audio feed is in mono and bass is almost non existent. If you really want to hear compression at work just listen to a lively piece of music on an AM radio station. Almost no dynamics. It's alike everything is closed into a small box. Yes you can still hear everything but it isn't ANYTHING like the real performance.  Now imagine how everything sounds attending a live music event. Admittedly a mix of an event  well done often sounds better than actually being there. In that sense the mix can be an improvement. Too many conflicting dynamics  in a live situation .vs  the compressed world of AM.

In folk music you probably want to hear the detailed plucks of the acoustic instruments, so playing too much with those peaks will kill the feel of it. I never have a single way I make my mixes. If there are some really powerful attacks coming from acoustic instruments or drums I might tackle  them by simply  dealing in a narrow db range with only the tips of those attacks. You might not hardly ever see the compressor indicator at work in that case. I would do this at the track level sometimes if there are some crazy loud attacks that didn't break 0db. If it went above that just re track that part. A compressor isn't a mixer and it wasn't intended to make things louder even though many compressors have a makeup volume control which is really dangerous in the wrong hands. If you go too far with all of that you will be making your own AM radio audio. 

If anything I'm often using multi band compression over a whole track approach because often only a small segment of the audio needs any compression if at all. Another really viable option is to use side chain compression. I often find issues in the master concerning bass and it's easy peasy to run the offending track in to a master compressor side chain.

I don't see limiting and compression as the same thing. Limiting is like compression on steroids. I seldom use it on anything but the master. As with compression I prefer multi band limiting as a 1st stage on the master and then if necessary I'll add a master limiter set lightly for folk music. It is usually suggested by mixing pros to track at low db levels for the mix, say -6db or less. I have tracked some parts at -12 db or less. 

There are other things we can do to get around feeling the necessity to compress. If there is only a few offending places in the master why not use volume automation instead?

[Lord Tim]

I think it really depends on the material at the end of the day.

If you're watching a jazz or folk band, or an orchestra, you want to hear every bit of those live dynamics - orchestral music especially. The contrast between a delicate flute interlude and then having a shipping container full of trombones and timpanis land on your head right after is pure joy! HAHA! Ruin those dynamics and you ruin the vibe and miss the point entirely.

But anyone who has been to a metal or punk show will have a different experience. Even taking into account that the bigger and more produced shows do have compression and limiting liberally applied over the entire mix and master outs, when you're in the crowd and the speakers and amps are cranking, your ears naturally compress things.

Whenever I'm doing anything that has that kind of intensity, I want to capture that live vibe. Maybe those cymbals take your head off. Maybe the guitars are just a touch too loud. Does this feel like I'm standing right in front of a band just going nuts and their wall of amps are blasting? It needs to be visceral and exciting. And you do definitely get that with a fairly slammed compressor/limiter on the out in that case. The low end especially needs extra attention when things are going a million miles an hour and the bass and kick drums are having a life or death battle for that frequency space - those dynamics need to be locked down and controlled or the entire mix will get away from you.

There's certainly degrees between soft rock and hardcore punk though, and should have the same kind of care applied to how much you want to smash the mix at the end. Like everyone has said, use your ears. Don't just slam the limiter because you feel like you have to now - you don't - it should be an artistic choice based on what the song needs.

[Starship Krupa]

On 6/1/2020 at 5:20 PM, Jon White said:

not one performance I've ever seen and relished and absorbed with human being had compression on the stage image

You must be speaking of performances that didn't have PA systems with a FOH mix, unless you interviewed the sound mixer after each of these shows to make sure they weren't using a compressor or limiter on the main bus or individual instruments. It's common enough that many consoles designed for mixing live shows have compressors built in to each channel.

[Craig Anderton]

Also, a lot of powered monitors have built-in limiters.

[Jon White]

On 6/4/2020 at 6:11 AM, Starship Krupa said:

You must be speaking of performances that didn't have PA systems with a FOH mix, unless you interviewed the sound mixer after each of these shows to make sure they weren't using a compressor or limiter on the main bus or individual instruments. It's common enough that many consoles designed for mixing live shows have compressors built in to each channel.

No, the point was that these performances are mainly heard directly by the audience.