Exported track appear to boost gain.

[marcL]

On 3/14/2020 at 7:20 PM, scook said:

Here is the relevant section of the help https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Playback.19.html

Thanks scook, I never found this so clearly described! But nevertheless to me it feels a bit like a bug when exporting a frozen synth mono audio track (interleave=mono) or its clip copied to a usual mono audio track don't deliver the same result!

On 3/14/2020 at 9:56 PM, Craig Anderton said:

I'm not sure this part is correct: "In summary, whenever the track output interleave is mono and the data interleave is stereo, mono data will be increased in level by 3 dB."  I've had mono samples in a track with mono interleave, and the level increase still happens when exported, but not when dragged into the Browser.

It is exactly this inconstancy that confuses me. One time I think "Now I got it", but the next moment I get irritated because it does not behave as I expected! ?

I have also observed that in some cases the indicated level on an instrument track (mono) had changed by +3dB after freezing when I reopened the project.

[marcL]

On 3/14/2020 at 6:32 PM, Craig Anderton said:

I've run into this problem before and brought it up many times, IIRC it has to do with the interaction of CbB being inherently stereo so it treats mono as existing in both channels, then sums as it exports. I've found four solutions.

1. Don't use the export function. Instead, drag the file into the desired folder in the browser.

2. Drop the Gain by -3 dB before exporting.

3. Export the mono file as stereo (although of course then you end up with a stereo file)

4. Export as Split Mono. This creates two mono files, just delete one of them.

I tried all of these methods today with some frozen mono synth audio tracks (AD2). No success with #1 and #4, they did boost by 3dB in my cases! #3 was not my favorite one, because you need another program then to split the stereo files. So in the end there remained only #2.

Or #5: I opened the audio files  generated  by the freeze in the audio folder with another program and exported them in my target format.

Finally I must admit the whole thing is a PITA, because you either have to use an additional program or you have to do actions that have to be reverted manually! ?

[John Bradley]

It could be improved...

Here's my use-case. I record mono guitar tracks (guitar directly into interface) and do all the amp/fx work in the box (BlueCat Axiom). I normally leave the interleave at 'stereo', because I want the stereo effects done with Axiom to play back in stereo. 

At some point in the process I usually do the AudioSnap thing to clean up my mediocre playing. Once I've got the timings straight, I want to render the AudioSnap using the offline Elastique Pro. I bounce the uneffected guitar audio (channel format mono, the only ticked box is 'fast bounce') to another track, delete the original recording, and move the bounced clip up onto the track with the amp fx. As I never listen to the raw guitar recording without going through the amp sim, I hadn't noticed that it was boosting it by 3db. Though at some point I thought "hey, the track is a little 'heavier' than I remember it being".

Thanks to this thread, I discovered that if I temporarily set the interleave to mono, do the bounce, move the data, and then set the interleave back to stereo, everything works as it should - no additional 3db of gain.

A bit cryptic, and not what would be expected given the settings in the Bounce to Tracks dialog, but at least it works. 

Maybe a pop-up "You know, this is going to boost your recording by 3db" dialog box should appear, along with a "yeah, I understand, don't tell me again checkbox" for those who know about it.

If the semi-bizarre behavior can't be changed without breaking a bunch of other things, at can at least be documented (in the app itself) to avoid the gotcha to new users.

 

[GreenLight]

I just lost a couple of hours to this weird +3 dB mono file issue when bouncing mono tracks... ?

On 3/14/2020 at 9:56 PM, Craig Anderton said:

I'm not sure this part is correct: "In summary, whenever the track output interleave is mono and the data interleave is stereo, mono data will be increased in level by 3 dB."  I've had mono samples in a track with mono interleave, and the level increase still happens when exported, but not when dragged into the Browser.

In the Cakewalk documentation quoted above, they mention "data interleave".  What is that? Is it something else than the track interleave?

My files are mono, my track interleaves are mono and my bounce to track channel format is set to mono... and still I get an unwanted +3dB boost... ? I think Cakewalk doesn't really like working with mono files?

[sreams]

5 hours ago, GreenLight said:

I just lost a couple of hours to this weird +3 dB mono file issue when bouncing mono tracks... ?

In the Cakewalk documentation quoted above, they mention "data interleave".  What is that? Is it something else than the track interleave?

My files are mono, my track interleaves are mono and my bounce to track channel format is set to mono... and still I get an unwanted +3dB boost... ? I think Cakewalk doesn't really like working with mono files?

Yes... but if your mono tracks with mono interleave are routed to a bus, that bus is stereo (unless you also changed the bus interleave). So the routing is from mono to stereo... and then the L/R from the bus output is merged/summed to mono again for the export.

Edited April 11, 2021 by sreams

[GreenLight]

11 hours ago, sreams said:

Yes... but if your mono tracks with mono interleave are routed to a bus, that bus is stereo (unless you also changed the bus interleave). So the routing is from mono to stereo... and then the L/R from the bus output is merged/summed to mono again for the export.

Thanks for chiming in!

I actually set the interleave on the bus to mono as well... That's what is so weird: I had mono on everything from the source material, the channel interleave and (a single) bus interleave all the way to the destination track and with no plugins in between, yet the bounce generates a volume difference.  ?

I managed to reproduce it in a new empty project in Cakewalk 2021.01. When I find the time, I think I will post a short video here, hopefully the Bakers will accept it as a bug. ☺️