Where's the Money Coming From?

[Starship Krupa]

5 hours ago, Skeptik said:

Also, on another note, something that kind of pisses me off.  I bought Sonar Platinum for $600 and less than 5 months later it's completely free.  I will be pissed off about that for years to come. 

Because....?

After all, you are getting what you paid for. The lifetime updates are flowing still. Better than what you paid for, IMO, because there are several reasons that freeware licensing makes for better software than payware, for long-term users.

Which suggests that you're pissed off at others' good fortune, which seems rather petty. ?

To help you not be so angry about that, consider this: I'm one of the people who got Cakewalk by BandLab for free. Number one, I didn't get to use it until April 2018. Number two, and this is a big one, Cakewalk is a program with a few added plug-ins. Sonar Platinum Suite was a friggin' monster package with a lot of extra software, some of it 3rd party that costs a pretty penny to buy (Melodyne, Superior Drummer), and some of it proprietary than nobody can buy (as yet) and would love to (L-EQ's, CA-2A, z3ta, Channel Tools). And you still get to use all of that. ?

There are many instances of payware turning freeware. Back when web browsers were new especially. Netscape and Opera were once payware browsers. I own a license for Opera that I paid for. It is one of the things that happens with software. Companies go under. Companies get sold. Individual products get sold. Key programmers quit. Products are dropped. I was at Macromedia when they bought Deck and subsequently killed it.

Number three, hey, thanks, sincerely, for helping keep the operation afloat and paying for the development. It wouldn't be here without licensing fees from users when it was payware. I was even one of them, long ago, now that I remember. I paid to upgrade to Sonar from a copy of Cakewalk Studio a friend gave me, back in 2002 or so. Now I'm pissed at myself! Why should I get for free what I had to pay for....wait a minute....

Number four, try to welcome the new users, because they're going to have good ideas for good ol' Cakewalk, increase the visibility, be fun to talk to, etc. I'm helping out as best I can, some of my praise made it onto the fliers they hand out at trade shows.

Number five, check out the new stuff they're doing with the Export to BandLab. You know that's going to turn into Import From BandLab, and at that point, we'll be able to trade projects back and forth over the 'net. Sonar went from being kinda stodgy to Cakewalk being closer to the cutting edge. Not even a year later, it's got a module that's an interface to a social media platform. Dang! Avid has their cloud thing with Pro Tools First and all, and it turns into something you have to pay for pretty quickly, but BandLab so far has put no cap on how much of their cloud space you can use for projects. I'm looking forward at least to just being able to swap stems with my buddy down in Indio.

You're getting what you paid for, other people are getting a fraction (a significant one, to be sure) of what you paid for for free. Don't waste anger on that.

Heaven knows, it could have been way, way worse.

[abacab]

8 hours ago, Skeptik said:

Speaking of this topic, why did Cakewalk fall through?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they owned by Gibson?  What happened to the company?

 

Also, on another note, something that kind of pisses me off.  I bought Sonar Platinum for $600 and less than 5 months later it's completely free.  I will be pissed off about that for years to come. 

I bought Sonar Platinum lifetime also.   Gibson was the parent company then, and that is who you should take up any grievances for former licenses with. Cakewalk Inc. as a company is no more.  BandLab has not acquired any of the Cakewalk business obligations. As far as I know that rests with Gibson. Good luck, and get in line with the rest of Gibson's creditors.

But I am just glad that Cakewalk software isn't dead yet. I have been a Cakewalk user for 20 years, and that is what got me started with DAWs. The Cakewalk intellectual property, but not the business obligations, of the former Cakewalk company was purchased last year by BandLab. 

All I can say is thank you to BandLab. Otherwise the alternative would have been money down the drain. I look forward to a  productive  partnership with the new owners of the Cakewalk brand and software. 

 

[witch_wyzwurd]

It seems some of you took a small thing I said and made a bunch of assumptions from it. Some assumed that I sat online reading forum write-ups for the passed how many months/years about BandLab and then wondered why I'm re-asking something about an old topic. Yah, I guess you missed my reply halfway up the page about not knowing BandLab sells other products. I thanked the person for telling me and moved on.

But just to address those who think everything for free in the computer world all works the same way and that being concerned/informed about the social-political nature of online services and software is nothing but a bunch of conspiracy theories: I guess all of the hacks that have happened and all of the selling off of data that still goes on to this day is nothing more than a bunch of wads of tin foil crammed in just my brain. I know how the general public plays this game: put your trust in anyone and everyone especially if they give you something for free (which is not free) and anyone who knows more than you about the backside of things and brings it up as a concern can't be nothing more than an idiotic, worried, fear-mongrel. Until, of course, it becomes common public knowledge. Then it's okay to act like you knew it all along and pat yourself on the back as the smart one as you rail away about it as a topic at the next party.

Btw, I hope they have a tin foil hat for me when I walk into the car lot and doubt the salesman when he tells me about all of the freebies that come with my car purchase are free. Or when the club owner tells me we don't need a contract for my performance. Or when I'm told that the customer service rep will be back on the line after putting me on hold for 20 minutes. The list goes on.

Go ahead...pat yourself on the back...trust in everyone...in everything...you're about to get taken for granted around the next corner. No, not you...that's never happened. Conspiracy Theory! Attack!

[Starship Krupa]

3 minutes ago, witch_wyzwurd said:

Btw, I hope they have a tin foil hat for me when I walk into the car lot and doubt the salesman when he tells me about all of the freebies that come with my car purchase are free. Or when the club owner tells me we don't need a contract for my performance. Or when I'm told that the customer service rep will be back on the line after putting me on hold for 20 minutes. The list goes on.

Go ahead...pat yourself on the back...trust in everyone...in everything...you're about to get taken for granted around the next corner. No, not you...that's never happened. Conspiracy Theory! Attack!

You're giving examples of gullible behavior that have no relation to the matter at hand. Buying used cars or playing nightclubs or talking to a service rep have nothing to do with using Cakewalk.

I know exactly what the dangers are in all of those situations, so I know how to handle them, what choices to weigh.

You have implied that there is some danger, or dangers, in using Cakewalk because we don't have to pay money for the license. I'm calling you out here: what is this potential danger?

[witch_wyzwurd]

16 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

Curious, what web browser did you use when you typed that?

I think that a fun giveaway item at NAMM would have been little tinfoil hats with the BandLab logo on them.

Okay, don't leave us hanging, where does that slippery slope lead to? What is at the bottom of it? Rather than this vague smoke, exactly what are you suggesting?

I'm a practical man. If you think I should not use this very useful software that I am being offered use of for free, tell me what negative consequences I will suffer if I use it. We've had many conspiracy ding-dongs around with the usual vague stuff about "you're fooling yourself" blah blah blah. Well, if I'm fooling myself and there's a slippery slope and you know more than I do, I'm all ears. Tell me what you know.

If you're using Cakewalk, what is your motive in posting this kind of thing? To deter other people from using it? To try to make other people feel uneasy about using it? To appear smarter than other people, as if you have special knowledge of the way the world really works? To get attention? What's your game?

I asked a question. Do you have problem with questions? If someone asks a question about a concern should they get plummeted? Are you the thought police or something? Do you one day hope to shut down communication through insults? Does that make you feel more intelligent? Does that make you feel as if you've won an argument? Are you suggesting that the tech industry and online companies have never been less than honest? Do you live in a world where a bunch of people work at complex things for free but yet disseminate their product to millions of people at a tip jar based income (and I said halfway up page 1 that I didn't know they sell other products)? If you're given something for free, do you just shut up and take it and not ask a question or raise a concern for fear you might ruin some unknown thing for other people even though your question or raising the concern might actually help them? Accept my apology for not praising a tech company who bought a software program I've been using for over a decade like they're a deity.

 

[witch_wyzwurd]

7 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

You're giving examples of gullible behavior that have no relation to the matter at hand. Buying used cars or playing nightclubs or talking to a service rep have nothing to do with using Cakewalk.

I know exactly what the dangers are in all of those situations, so I know how to handle them, what choices to weigh.

You have implied that there is some danger, or dangers, in using Cakewalk because we don't have to pay money for the license. I'm calling you out here: what is this potential danger?

Obviously, you're going to try to play me with debate tactics. A run around in circles game. You know, the "I stated the question/concern, yet you'll just say I haven't, even though it's clearly published within this thread" game. Call me out? On what? What's your conspiracy theory about me? I asked a question. I raised my concern. It was answered on page 1. I thanked the person who helped me. Enjoy trying to diminish people who ask questions or raise concerns about things that happen every day. Feel lucky...many people would love to live in the world you do, where there's no slippery slopes and everything can be taken on the merit of it be given away for free, and to raise questions or concerns is a moot point because it's gullible to believe people and/or corporations aren't always 100% trustworthy. My bad! Got another attack? If so, I suggest you go back and read up on what has already been answered.

[Starship Krupa]

3 minutes ago, witch_wyzwurd said:

I asked a question. Do you have problem with questions? If someone asks a question about a concern should they get plummeted? Are you the thought police or something? Do you one day hope to shut down communication through insults? Does that make you feel more intelligent? Does that make you feel as if you've won an argument? Are you suggesting that the tech industry and online companies have never been less than honest? Do you live in a world where a bunch of people work at complex things for free but yet disseminate their product to millions of people at a tip jar based income (and I said halfway up page 1 that I didn't know they sell other products)? If you're given something for free, do you just shut up and take it and not ask a question or raise a concern for fear you might ruin some unknown thing for other people even though your question or raising the concern might actually help them? Accept my apology for not praising a tech company who bought a software program I've been using for over a decade like they're a deity.

The block of text you quoted was not a response to your question, of course. It was a response to something you said later in the thread. Which was....

Quote

As far as analytical data and the undo-button thing, I'm guessing you're being snarky as anyone who knows about the internet and data collection knows that no one is sitting around selling data about undo-button clicks. Lol! And even if that was the case, I wouldn't understand why anyone would be okay with it just to get something for free. That's a hell of a slippery slope.

I asked you to tell us what, exactly, you thought was at the bottom of that slippery slope. I'll spot you a few and say "further down." Do you have a problem with answers? ?

To answer your questions, in order: No. I don't know what getting "plummeted" means, but I'll say no. No, just someone who's tired of people stirring up fear, uncertainty and doubt without talking specifics. No. No. No. Ha, no. No, the programmers and support people definitely get paid, and Cakewalk will make BandLab money, just not as directly any more.  Most of the time, yes, unless I am aware of a real danger and have something concrete to warn people about.

There ya go, 9 answers, and I didn't even break a sweat.

[Starship Krupa]

11 minutes ago, witch_wyzwurd said:

Obviously, you're going to try to play me with debate tactics. A run around in circles game. You know, the "I stated the question/concern, yet you'll just say I haven't, even though it's clearly published within this thread" game. Call me out? On what? What's your conspiracy theory about me? I asked a question. I raised my concern. It was answered on page 1. I thanked the person who helped me. Enjoy trying to diminish people who ask questions or raise concerns about things that happen every day. Feel lucky...many people would love to live in the world you do, where there's no slippery slopes and everything can be taken on the merit of it be given away for free, and to raise questions or concerns is a moot point because it's gullible to believe people and/or corporations aren't always 100% trustworthy. My bad! Got another attack? If so, I suggest you go back and read up on what has already been answered.

I have no conspiracy theories, no tactics other than to point out logical fallacies and repeat my question.

You seem to think that there is some greater danger involved in using Cakewalk due to the fact that it is distributed via a freeware license vs. software that is distributed via a commercial license. Unless I got that wrong, in which case I shall humbly apologize.

I am asking you to tell me exactly what that danger is. What bad thing might happen? What are we at risk for?

We know your car salesman might hide his "freebies" in the price of the car, the club owner might cheat us on the door, the telephone rep might wait for the next Guns 'n' Roses album to pick up the phone, but what might happen if we use Cakewalk?

To use your language, I do not "live in a world" where I accept the vague hints of just any person on a forum regarding the "slipperiness of slopes" inherent in different software licensing models.

If anything, I'm trying to be the opposite of gullible. If there's a danger, I want to know what it is! Tell me!

[Skyline_UK]

There is NEVER, repeat NEVER a free lunch.  The global players cited either make advertising revenues or saleable data collections or both.   In the run up to doing that they may well peddle something that appears 'free' but that strategy is related to 'land grab',    plain old monopoly building,  in order to do the above later on.  Companies make acquisitions to either (1) speed up the above process and/or (2) take out potential competitors.   I always assumed BandLab acquired CW for the aforementioned synergistic reason(s), e.g. to improve and enlarge the BandLab music sharing service which will eventually carry side bar adverts.  It's not my place to question the validity or otherwise of that.

I'm not criticising our capitalist system, just sayin' how it tends to operate in real life,  that's all.  Good luck to Meng and his crew and many thanks for the vibrant return of CW.

Caveat: I do think the mega-corporations need reigning in.  They've taken the piss in the last few years in the full knowledge that governments are slow to act when they see dangers that need legislating against. And like monopolies of old their rampant greed quite literally knows no limits.   They hold themselves out as cool hip Leftie dudes just trying to make the world a better place.  (That's probably true of most of the naive starry-eyed drones who beaver away in the trendily-furnished bowels of these outfits.)  That may have been the naive original aim but it long ago went by the wayside.  They now use that pose as a disguise for their true  characters and in that respect they are no different from the rapacious mine and mill owners of the Victorian age, despite the bean bag bollocks.   I'm glad this week our government in the UK has read the riot act to the social media giants about their carrying posts inciting self harm and suicide in young people.

[John]

3 hours ago, witch_wyzwurd said:

I asked a question. Do you have problem with questions? If someone asks a question about a concern should they get plummeted? Are you the thought police or something? Do you one day hope to shut down communication through insults? Does that make you feel more intelligent? Does that make you feel as if you've won an argument? Are you suggesting that the tech industry and online companies have never been less than honest? Do you live in a world where a bunch of people work at complex things for free but yet disseminate their product to millions of people at a tip jar based income (and I said halfway up page 1 that I didn't know they sell other products)? If you're given something for free, do you just shut up and take it and not ask a question or raise a concern for fear you might ruin some unknown thing for other people even though your question or raising the concern might actually help them? Accept my apology for not praising a tech company who bought a software program I've been using for over a decade like they're a deity.

 

This has gone on long enough. People have tried to bring you up to date have even gone back and provided threads from the old forum that explained what happen and how. You  have every right to ask a question and get an answer.  That has been done. There is no reason for this thread to go on.  The one thing that to me crosses the line is personal attacks. Please refrain from getting personal with another member. 

I think it it time to call it a day on this thread. I wont lock it now but I will if this keeps up. 

[Michael Richards]

It really is ridiculous how quickly replies and remarks are taken to the nth degree. It is difficult enough that the president behaves in this bully manner, but this is a forum where people help one another.

Honestly, write your remark and then wait a few hours before sending it. Maybe, just maybe at that point you might see that it is a bit offensive. We don’t become better people, musicians, and nor do we become smarter by acting this way. We just look bitter.

 

[John]

2 hours ago, Michael Richards said:

It really is ridiculous how quickly replies and remarks are taken to the nth degree. It is difficult enough that the president behaves in this bully manner, but this is a forum where people help one another.

Honestly, write your remark and then wait a few hours before sending it. Maybe, just maybe at that point you might see that it is a bit offensive. We don’t become better people, musicians, and nor do we become smarter by acting this way. We just look bitter.

 

Who are you addressing this to? 

[Michael Richards]

Any 2 people who get in a huff. We witnessed it in this thread, and many others.

It wasn’t meant for you. I agree with your post. I don’t want to see this forum turn into a shouting match. Too many things I need to continually learn.

M.

[InstrEd]

I'm happy Cakewalk Sonar Platinum lives on with its new name CbB. I stopped worry about how it will be funded. Facebook, Google make a mint based on ad revenue. Meng seems like he has a vision for CbB and I will sit back and see where the ride goes.

[John]

I'm with you on your points Michael.

[azslow3]

No hosts? ?

And for the topic... Common, the only big country which has tried to calculate what is real price for everything and attempted to use such prices is not there last 25 years.

Is someone still think that producing a product and selling it IS the way to make BIG money in THIS world? LOL.

[InstrEd]

29 minutes ago, azslow3 said:

No hosts? ?

i noticed that to ?

[abacab]

I would really hate to see see this place turn into a KVR style free-for-all. But that said, even the KVR forum moderators occasionally lock threads and ban users to maintain a semblance of order. Somebody has to do it if the users cannot control themselves.

[John]

Clearly what I said made no difference to some.  Therefore I have no choice but to lock the thread.  Also to abuse anybody is not permitted.