Midi Keyboards

[Noffley Puggs]

Hi , Hope I'm in the right place. First time submission.... I have 2 identical USB Mini Keyboards, (M-Audio Keystation 32s). Could someone explain how to connect them so they’ll both work together (I was hoping to piggyback one above the other, each hand playing a different board) as although each one works fine when connected separately, when both are connected I can only get one of them to work. They both appear to be installed as both show up in Midi devices…is it something to do with the way they are internally routed? I am not very technically minded so would appreciate any advice or help….Thanks

[CJ Jacobson]

Are both of the MIDI ins and outs enabled in the MIDI preference menu?

Also, make sure both are turned on and also make sure windows see's them before opening Cakewalk. 

[Noffley Puggs]

Hi...sorry for the delay…thanks for replying …yes both Midi ins and outs are enabled. Could it be a driver issue as they are both identical? I’ve tried contacting M Audio but got no reply. Both keyboards are showing up in midi devices and both work fine separately, but when both boxes are checked it states “device already in use”

[Robert Bone]

I too, had the same issue come up, about 3 years ago.  You will not like the explanation I am about to give.

In my case, I had two identical Nektar midi controllers, and just like your situation, both worked fine separately, but only one would work properly within Sonar Platinum (Cakewalk's former self before Gibson abandoned the brand, and Bandlab so wonderfully picked up Sonar and staff and gave us Cakewalk by Bandlab).

The issue is that both controllers sent out identical broadcast information ID's, so because of this, Cakewalk/Sonar has no way to treat them as different midi controllers, and this is why only one will respond properly within Cakewalk.

There is no current workaround or fix for this situation.  In my case, Sweetwater worked with both the Cakewalk folks and with the Nektar folks, but there was, and still is, no way to have two identical midi controllers work together in Cakewalk.

My only recourse was to return one of the midi controllers to Sweetwater, and they swapped it out for a different make and model, and things have worked wonderfully, ever since.

I suggest you either keep one of your identical controllers as a backup, or sell/return one of them, and pick up a different brand or model controller.

The issue lies within the internals of the midi controllers themselves, and not with some issue with Cakewalk, and there is just nothing in Cakewalk anybody can do to alter the fact that identical midi device types will almost certainly broadcast themselves with identical information, and that because of that, Cakewalk will have zero chance of being able to have whichever device is detected 2nd, respond properly.

Perhaps there is some kind of way to either use a filter to intercept and modify that broadcast information, or to write some kind of little program to accomplish that, but I do not consider that likely, as a solution.  I cannot rule that out - though, so perhaps something along those lines could be undertaken - I just accepted the situation as being an unfortunate reality, and after swapping the 2nd controller out for a different one, I no longer had to deal with the issue.

Bob Bone

[razor7music]

I have a question.

Can't you assign a different MIDI channel to each MIDI controller, and then assign the corresponding channels to the soft synths you want to drive?  I have the same MIDI controller (I think) and changing the MIDI channel is a pain to remember. That's why I have the keep the manual handy. Rant over.

Curious.

[Robert Bone]

1 hour ago, razor7music said:

I have a question.

Can't you assign a different MIDI channel to each MIDI controller, and then assign the corresponding channels to the soft synths you want to drive?  I have the same MIDI controller (I think) and changing the MIDI channel is a pain to remember. That's why I have the keep the manual handy. Rant over.

Curious.

Nope - because the issue happens at the device level, and not the midi channel.  Because there are two literally identical midi controllers, both devices tell Windows and the world that they are identical, and CbB has no way to differentiate between them, so only the 1st one it detects is usable.  I went around and around with Sweetwater, the manufacturer, and the Sonar tech support folks (a couple years prior to CbB), and it just could not be resolved.  Aparently, not too many folks try to use 2 identical controllers.

If there is some kind of programmatic way of intercepting that device ID info broadcast by the controller(s), perhaps it could be internally identified by combining the device info with the USB port it is connected to, and then maybe that info could be tweaked so that it looked like a different device.  I just went with returning one of the controllers, and picked up a different one.

Bob Bone

 

[razor7music]

Back to the OP: It's interesting because back when I had a D70, I could split the keyboard and treat each section completely separately. I guess it worked because it was all handled on the synth and then I just recorded the analog output into CW.

I guess it leads me to wonder why you can't split a midi controller the same way and have each section assigned to its own soft synth?

Edited January 15, 2020 by razor7music

[user 905133]

comments related to other gear removed

Edited January 15, 2020 by User 905133
to remove comments that didn't relate to the user's gear

[slartabartfast]

So Cakewalk sees the two identical controller identifiers as a single controller. Is that a Cakewalk issue or a Windows issue? If it is a Cakewalk specific problem, could interposing another application like MidiOx separate the devices by channel number? That kind of application can receive and filter or forward MIDI based on the channel it comes in on and send it to Cakewalk while appearing as a multichannel MIDI input to Cakewalk. I do not have a plethora of identical keyboards to experiment with this myself.

[slartabartfast]

3 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

Do they also have 5-pin DIN midi outs?  I ask because I have some usb controllers that also allow for 5-pin DIN output in addition functioning as usb/midi devices.  If so, and if you have at least one reliable midi interface, perhaps you can use both keyboards--either with 1 via usb and 1 via DIN, or both as DIN.

That should work. When connected via DIN to a MIDI interface, the interface is typically seen as the MIDI input device--not the keyboard that is feeding it data. 

[azslow3]

OP has mentioned controllers in question: "M-Audio Keystation 32"  Why suggest MIDI outs? ?

Identical keyboards work in general. MIDI devices are identified by number (at least MS write so), so it is technically possible open several identical keyboards, as long as Windows see them (and I guess it see them). So claiming there is "no way" is strange.

But one problem is going to persist, even if that is done: Windows can re-arrange MIDI devices, and there will really no way to find which was "the first" and which was "the second" last time. USB devices have complete connection path, but I do not know any method to map MIDI device id (at least in old MS MIDI API) to possibly existing USB device ID.

[user 905133]

1 hour ago, azslow3 said:

OP has mentioned controllers in question: "M-Audio Keystation 32"  Why suggest MIDI outs? ?

Apologies for not looking for the manual to see if it has midi outs.  You are right, though.  I should have looked for the manual first. ?

[azslow3]

12 minutes ago, User 905133 said:

Apologies for not looking for the manual to see if it has midi outs.  You are right, though.  I should have looked for the manual first. ?

I always first use Google and switch to images. The back panel of any device is normally immediately visible. I also do not start with manuals ?

[user 905133]

Just now, azslow3 said:

I always first use Google and switch to images. The back panel of any device is normally immediately visible. I also do not start with manuals ?

I apologize that I wrote "manuals."  It was edited down from a list of resources, which included online resources.  As I wrote in the original version [in part], "You are right, though.  I should have done the research first."

[Michael Warren]

You should have the option of changing the Global ID for your controllers. That way they are recognized as 2 different devices. I don't have 2 Units, but if they have the same common global ID, they would be seen as one.

[Robert Bone]

3 hours ago, Michael Warren said:

You should have the option of changing the Global ID for your controllers. That way they are recognized as 2 different devices. I don't have 2 Units, but if they have the same common global ID, they would be seen as one.

That would have done it, I would think - it justnever came up in the discussions between Sweetwater/Cakewalk Support/Nektar, to change anything called Global ID. and not sure if changing something like that would be possible.  At the time, they had just said that both identical controllers would broadcast identical information.

Once Sweetwater decided to overnight me a replacement controller of a different model, I never went back to revisit that situation.  (That was AWESOME by Sweetwater to have done that, by the way - they essentially 'fronted' me a new midi controller, ahead of my shipping the other one back to them - which was made even MORE awesome because I had a gig days later, so them doing that reallyreallyreallyreallyREALLY helped me out).

I will do a litle digging into the notion of Global ID - thanks for your post. 

Bob Bone

[Michael Warren]

Have to say Sweetwater has been great for me. They always respond quickly and resolve returns with no hassles.

[Robert Bone]

7 hours ago, Michael Warren said:

Have to say Sweetwater has been great for me. They always respond quickly and resolve returns with no hassles.

Not to mention the candy they include with orders. Nice touch