William Fleming

Professional? How many here have 24 or more audio inputs on their setup? Have track a 9 piece band to 18 audio tracks? Then mixed them down along with virtual instrument tracks and use MULTIPLE gates, noise suppressors, compressors, EQs, tube amps, enhancers, etc. to process it all? Because the actual real pros in the large professional recording studios will tell you they don't do it all "in the box". Which is why they have racks of hardware gates, noise suppressors, EQs, tube amps, enhancers, etc. to help supplement the Mac/Window DAW systems. So if you professionals only need a Mac/Windows OS to make 12 tracks of "cut and paste beats" with some singing (or talking) over it, then splash some autotune on, all "int the box", that's just great. But just as the professional drive thru, surveillance, automatronic, and all the other real professional places that use proprietary OS to run software (with GUIs that "replicate" Windows, but because they are their own integrated OS/Software .... run more efficiently!), real professional recording studios need more then just a laptop running Mac/Windows from Best Buy to do all the professional work. But I guess a recording studio running more efficiently is madness, isn't it?

"Many folks are running Windows based DAWs just fine. Many of my clients are using PC DAWs professionally to make records and compose music for TV/Film." It doesn't take much processing to have 12 tracks of midi going to a muti-out virtual instrument and then run it thru some reverb (I do it myself). But when you are track a 9-piece band (Salsa) to 18 audio tracks and 7 midi track, then mix this using several virtual plugins and process this all with (I can't even remember how many compressor, eq, tape, tube, enhancer, etc. plugins I used) effect all "in the box", it helps to have more processing power. I pointed out before that I have 3 PCs in my studio on a network. My main one has the DAW on it. The other 2 help to share the processing power, mainly plugins. Although one of the other PCs does handle a Focusrite sound (love that Air) and the other handles 2 (use to be 4) Delta 8 in/out and one (use to be 2) MOTU. Can you imagine me trying use all this to track a rock band with 2 gtrs, lead singer, BU singers and a brass section on 1 PC? Don't quite understand? If Bandlab developed Sonar with its own OS that uses the same driver, plugins, etc. as the Windows version, how is that taking a step back? "If I understand you correctly, you seem to be drawing a parallel between the use of timers at fast food restaurants and the use of timers for processing audio data and MIDI communication" The parallel I'm actually trying to point out is that PC does not mean Windows, or any other OS. A PC is just a devise to run an OS on. And just as pointed out, PCs run MANY OS systems. And not just for billion $ companies like GM to fun their robotics, but also little companies that make low cost DVRs like the on I upgraded at a storage unit. Btw, I didn't sell them on it, they came to me because the Windows based system wasn't working well enough for them. And they were the one that requested the specific brand/model they wanted installed, after investing and find this was the one best for their needs (enough processing power I assume). I did not open the DVR to see what was inside, but I wouldn't be surprised if were a standard PC board with standard video/audio board installed. Sorta like your PC with soundcards attached. Only running a different OS. An OS more dedicated to video surveillance. An OS that is more stable and uses less processing/memory compared to their old Windows based surveillance system. People don't seem to understand. This not recording your rock band at a McDonalds. But just as there are drive thru that you can get your prescriptions or deposit your paycheck, wouldn't it be nice to do all these tasks at once while pick up a burger at one drive thru? But as we know what happens during peak time at while trying to get lunch: the "process(or)" gets bogged down. "You're assuming all DAW users would embrace this concept." No, just as I don't assume all drive thru places embrace having a proprietary OS timer. There are still ones that us software that run on other OS (Windows, Linux, etc.). But being there are many drive thru place that DO use a proprietary OS to run their time, yes, there is a market for it. And for those thinking that the large studios that record 9-piece bands to 22 audio tracks on DAWs that sit on top of standard OS, you need to check into their studio PCs (not the office PC, the one in the studios) closer. Like the PC I use for my DAW, it is a stripped-down version (Windows). It does not have all the extras that I do not need to run Sonar (or any of the other audio software I have). People freak out when they see how the Windows GUI pops up so fast right after hitting the power button (some think it was already on in "sleep" mode). If you bring up your Task Manager, I probably don't even have half of the BG processing going on my PCs. But this PC can't print or do a lot of the other task a standard "Home" version of Windows does. And though it is on my local network, it doesn't even have Antivirus on it. Which is why I state that all my new/updates and other "downloads needed" are done through on of my other PCs. Yes, the Tascam Studio I had was great. But when it came to wanting different inputs/outputs (I could only use Tascam) or more processing power or larger memory, the Tascam is limited. With my PC based system, if I need more, I just upgrade the memory, processor or even upgrade whole MB (just keep the nice tower, HD, power supply, wiring, etc.) Saving LOTS of money. Even when I upgrade my whole PC, I just transfer the DAW system to it. Then I can still use my favorite soundcards, controllers, plugins, etc. that I've already spent LOTS of money on. And think about it. These dedicated computerized workstations like the ones Tascam come out with have ....... computers! They have an OS system. Only thing is, when the hardware breaks down, you can just buy new hardware and transfer the OS over to the new Tascam. There's a reason you can get one of these old workstations for "next to nothing". You can't use the great new soundcards on them. You can't use the great new plugins you got on them. You can't download the latest DAW/OS to them. I don't think the problem would be solved getting one of these old workstations. So ..... if Tascam and IZ-RADAR can make an OS/DAW for their dedicated workstations? I'm getting the impression that people are thinking that writing code for an OS takes so much more "processing" (in the brain) to develop then it takes to write software. Back in the day of DOS (yes, I am that old) it was a pain working a a 4 track midi. Having to text in all the commands. Then they worked on systems that had GUIs and implemented commands that only required "click". So people can just be a go to the store (or download this day and age), buy a disk, and "click" exe. Yes, so why aren't a lot of these other software companies doing their own OS for their software? Would you want to get a second computer to doing you banking? And another PC to get into your favorite chat room? Or have to make a triple, quad, or even more, boot computer to run all these different OSs? Most (consumer) software doesn't need that much processing and can be used one a "generic" OS along with the other low processing software. A PC that has to time vehicles at the time at the menu, then time going to the cash window, then the time at the cash window, then the time going to the pickup window, then the time at the pickup windows, then calculate the total time and differences from each. All this while it is calculating the times of several vehicles right behind it, needs processing power. A PC that has to recording video/audio of dozens of cameras, while controlling the depth of each camera, and the motion detection of each camera, while human surveillance (company workers) are operating individual cameras (sometimes several at a time) needs processing power. A robotic arm that has several motorize joint that need a feather like touch and be able to pinpoint a spot to do a weld, needs processing power. None of these need answer email with a Google account in their system. I have a minivan for work. I don't need to go shipping, take the kids to school or pick up friends to go camping on the weekend. I have a second car to do those things. If you don't want a second vehicle, no problem. Get the minivan to do all these things and also to do you "work". But I would like my minivan to be geared towards my "work". I don't need windows in the back that can be broken by a worker throwing equipment in the back. I don't need seats in the back that will be "stripped down" to put into the garage and just sit there. I need a "work" vehicle that is geared toward my .... work! Again, I have a second vehicle to do the rest of my chores. Not feasible? How much is Bandlab charging to Cakewalk? Yet they are constantly developing/upgrading it all the time. Average people (I'm below average) are sitting at home, developing OS (Linux). Feasible? Are people saying that these place that create DAWs for hundreds of dollars, would have to raise their prices to thousand if the integrated an OS with it? Has anyone here purchased a copy of Windows (separate from the one that came with your PC)? I sure hope it cost less than a copy of some of these hi end DAWs out there (Studio One - $199). Pls, check out the pro studios who have websites. 1. Yes, their studio(s) run DAWs on computers with OS on them, but these are not "off the self" Home versions. They are stripped down, modified versions (like what I have) that are intended to do one thing: "Work" with audio. 2. Take a look at the photos of these big recording studios. What do you notice on the left of the console? On right of the console? Under the console? Running behind the engineer at the console? Thousands of dollars of hardware compressors, EQs, tube amps, tone modules, etc., etc., etc. If plugins can simulate the hardware so accurately (and they do), then why spend thousands on hardware when you can just spend hundreds on plugins? 3. The thing you typically see in the studio (like mine) is the additional computers that help to do the processing. So why not have a DAW with its own integrated OS that can do all this in 1 PC, run more stable, and save LOTS of money in the process? Just like the drive thru timer systems. Just like the surveillance systems. Gee, if they come out with an integrated DAW/OS where you did not have to purchase an expensive "stripped down" OS, I wonder how many dedicated studios would buy it? If you don't want a vehicle (PC) that's just for work, there are still the standard vehicles (software) you can drive to go visit and chat with friends, as well as use to do your work. It would be nice if we had the option (like a lot of other developers have) to get a dedicated vehicle (DAW/OS) that can handle the "work" ...... better. I have a second vehicle (PC) to go visit those chat rooms.

Hey! Thanks for all the feedback! As for as small market? Being there is a "small" market for developing DAW software, why wouldn't it be there same to just have an OS with them? If you look at my post, the company that has the dedicated OS for drive thru timer does not manufacture computers. They are using a standard PC, ones that can run Windows OS if you load it! (Albeit, poorly. being the lower processor/mem). As I stated, you don't have to purchase another PC, just run it dual boot. But being PCs are getting so cheap and you don't need as much processing power. This drive thru timer PC only has a 2.1 GHz with 2G of memory! Your not going to get Windows alone to run on this PC properly (I tried it), not alone try a run DAW system IN Windows. Thousands of dollars? Not sure if I get that. Why would they charge thousand for a DAW/OS that can just run on the PC you already have? I did have a Tascam system (a long time ago), but besides the fact that it is limited to firmware updates and you can't easily upgrade to a better soundcard from a different company, if you want, did you see the prices of these systems? Niche in the market? These are dedicated systems that cost a lot, which is why the sales are a lot lower the DAW software and OSs. Yes, you can "network" these dedicated HARDWARD system to a PC, but why not pay for a much, MUCH lower cost DAW/OS and run it on a PC, which you already have? And being able to upgrade at a much lower cost in the future? There are other OS that can load Windows drivers (I ran a version of Linux that loaded Windows drivers for my Aardvark) and can run DAWs that utilize VST plugins. So why can't a dedicated DAW/OS do the same? And yes, 40 years ago (I am that old), it was not feasible to try and have a dedicated DAW/OS, like this drive thru coming I mentioned that did not have back then, they only had hardware versions (did someone mention Tascam?). But in this day and age that places are creating dedicated OS? And I don't just mean this drive thru company I mentioned. I work on surveillance systems that utilize their own OS, which you can (another drum roll, pls) network with other OS (Windows). Which means the manager at the business can not only "see" what's on the system, but can upload/download data, which they can use in software the are running on the SAME PC they are using at the moment! If I had a PC with the same specs as yours running a DAW with it's own dedicated OS, I you don't think I would be able to have more tracks? Be able to load more plugins? Be able to edit (especially Wav files) a lot quicker? No profit? Do a search online. There people paying big bucks for DAWs without an OS. Being the DAW/OS would need a lot less processing/ memory (like the drive thru system I mentioned), that mean you can use your old PC that is no longer enough to run the latest version of Windows with Cakewalk on it. You don't think people would pay to use a better DAW/OS that could run on their old PC and not have to pay thousand to upgrade to a better PC just to run the latest version? So if someone could create a DAW based on it's own OS, you don't think people would be willing to purchase a cheap PC (or as I said, just run it dual boot) and purchase a more stabled system (as I pointed out with the drive thru systems that run on other OS, like Windows)? When Pro Tools first came out, how much of a minute market was there for it? Even a lot of Pro studios, which Avid catered too, didn't switch over to them. But yet Pro Tools if still around. And still developing it. And to the same niche that could pay for it with it's own OS base. Think about it: There are people out there working on free DAW software. There are people (not just a small niche) out there working developing OS. Even FREE ones (I use Windows Tiny). It's a matter of OS + DAW = a dedicated studio system (which many, many people like myself have) that is more stabled and need less doing it. As for as running other programs at the same time. The OS this Drive Thru company using goes a network and connect to a cloud. So this dedicated OS can then ....... (drum role, pls), ..... communicate withe Windows (or IOS). Corporates can not only see what going on at a location, but the can upload/download data, do editing to the software, etc. Just as in my studio I run 2 PCs on a local network to share processing power (instruments, effects, etc). There are places that are writing software that that utilize a dedicated OS that run better, with less power needed, and a LOT cheaper (no need to buy a separate OS). Software systems that many are based on DOS, which is a OS in itself, but does not have it GUI, Antivirus, extra programing to run this apps that many don't use anyway and filled with drivers to use with thing many people don't use, etc., like Windows does? DAW/OS that can be developed at the same time, not spare time, just as other companies (even smaller then Bandlab) do. If anyone ever gets a chance to see a professional recording studio (I mean one that actually records acoustic bands), yes, the do use DAW software (most have serveral). But you'll also see the supplement it with a lot of other equipment. Racks of hardware compressors, EQs, tube amps, tone modules, etc. And I'm not talking about equipment bought 29 years ago, but newer studios as well. We all know there are plugins that can simulate or even do a better job then the hardware versions. So why spend thousands of dollars on other equipment? No offense, but I don't just download "beats" and paste the here and there, then sing (talk) over it. Maybe even lay down a few track of guitar or bass. Then throw in a dozen or more plugins and mix down. And I definitely don't mean to compare myself to the production work the larger pro studio do, but trying to mix down 18 tracks of audio, several tracks of midi/virtual instruments (the band could not leave their keyboards), and I haven't even counted the tons plugins, one PC get a little slow. Which is why I "supplemented" my system by networking 2 other PCs (Windows) to help the processing (mainly plugins and to do file editing). Which, btw, my main PC with Sonar on it has a stripped down version of Windows. It does NOT go on the internet. Any updates needed I do through one of the network PCs, which is a bet of a process. It sure would be nice to have a DAW/OS that that could go online to do the updates/upgrades directly. And also more stable, needs less processing power, still network with other PCs, etc. You know, like the other (small) companies develop. If you don't want to get a run a dual boot or get a second (cheaper) PC that network with the one you have now, fine, just get the Windows (or other OS based DAWs) version of the software. Just as places can get dedicate Apps/OS for their surveillance, drive thru, robotics, running machinery, etc., I'd like to have a more dedicated system for my dedicated studio. Then I can sell all this extra hardware I have and just use one PC (with it's own dedicated DAW/OS) to get the job done. .

"hundreds, thousands of people's bedrooms the cake team is rather small in comparison, and ms don't allow this sort of thing" Exactly! There are LOTS of AVERAGE people who write OS. Not just Linux, but you can find others writing Windows version (I use Tiny), so MS does allow licensing. We're not talking about Harvard graduates either. Just as "backyard" mechanics build their own car from scratch, based on manufactured parts (Ford frame, Chevy engine, etc) and put together an original vehicle, there have been "backyard" software developers who have created their own OS. As far as small, the company I pointed out (HME) is a small company compared to Microsoft, Apple, etc., but has written their own OS for drive thru timer systems. This company's main gold is to make hardware to do the job (headsets, vehicle detectors, etc.), not software. Their software team is probably no bigger (if not smaller) then what Cakewalk has. As far as using Linux, that would be the same as using Windows. It is a general OS build for installing software on top of it. It is bogged down with other things that are not needed to run a dedicated DAW system. One of the Antimalware, something the priority OS this drive thru company uses does not need. And as I pointed out, other company with drive through timers will use standard OS (usually Windows) and I have to run out to service them, where the one with its own priority system never seems to fail. An OS that need less power (2G memory) and runs more stable that the one that need Windows on a more powerful PC. They are not the only ones either. There are surveillance companies, automatic machine controllers, etc., that utilize OS written on standard PC base equipment. So, if these small companies can write stable an OS, then why can't small DAW companies write one? Think about it, a dual boot PC that has Windows and a dedicated DAW OS (that doesn't have all the unnecessaries needed for a DAW, i.e. Antivirus). It would just need to be able to load and use drivers (soundcard) and utilize plugins. Just like some people have a dual boot with Windows and a version of Linux.

Hey, Pwalpwal, Thanks for checking out my post so quickly! As far as cost concerns, check out my last post. Windows tiny is free! There are many other OSs out there (Liniux) that are free as well. But even if it cost a bit, compared to other DAWs that are out there, which cost in the hundreds, and still need an expensive OS to run! (That make them unstable). And Sonar is great competition to any of them! The team at Bandlab do a LOT of work to create/update this complex software they come out with to give it away for free. And being Sonar is pretty complex to have written, how much harder for this experience team is it to write an OS? It seems versions of Linux are written in people's bedroom. And a version of Sonar with it's own OS should be even easier to write, being it would need less in it. Why not keep the free version of Sonar for people to run on Windows (like with Cakewalk) and have a version that cost with its own OS system? Just like Pro Tool is doing right now, only without it's own OS system. Again, less stable. I wouldn't mind paying for it. Especially if it were more stable, AND POWERFUL, because of its own OS (like the one I mentioned about in the drive thru system) without all the unnecessary things (like Anti-virus) on it. And needing less memory to do it! (saving money to pay toward a different version of Sonar) Just a dream.....

One thing I forgot to mention: The OS would have to utilize the same driver as used by Windows. Soundcard, controllers, exc. Infact, it would be really nice if Bandlab could write an OS that could utilize multiple ASIOs. And as far as creating an OS, we all know that others besides Microsoft have made Window versions. I use Windows Tiny on my PC. It doesn't have all the extras that I don't need. Just a dream.....

One major improvement (that is too much to ask) that I think would make Sonar (or any other DAW) run more stable. I work as a tech on commercial communications system. One thing I work on is installing/servicing drive throu systems at fast food restaurants, which include timers at fast food restaurants that time how long it takes at the menu, to take orders, pickup window, overall, and well as other things. The apps for these systems run on an OS (typically Windows) and are prone to crashes once in a while. One system in particular has its own priority OS, which is integrated with the app and runs much more stable. When I go out to service them, it is usually bad wiring, network issue, etc., and rarely goes down because of the OS. In fact, if it has to do with the system, it's because the tech did not input the right configuration during installation (Store info, network info, configuration, etc.), or the site wants a different configuration, which an inhouse tech can take care of because the system is on a cloud. Because the software is its "own" OS, it runs very stable. And one of the biggest issues that make it a better system: NO NEED FOR ANTI-VIRUS! Which we all know takes a LOT of memory and CPU. Their computers run on only 4 Gigs of memory! (And do it well I might add) The system should still be online to do updates to Sonar (OS), plugins that need online service, etc., as well as COMMUNICATING WITH OTHERS. Wouldn't that be great? Many of us have (can afford) more than one computer, so having a dedicated one for a DAW is not an issue. Although, having a dual boot system is not out of the question either. It may even need only 4 gigs of memory for Sonar's system! But of course, I understand that it is too much to be asking....... 😢. But then again, if this other company (that does not manufacture the computer, just uses "off the shelve" PCs) can make its own app that is "built" on an OS...... Just a suggestion.

Yes, there are a lot of plugins that do a great job reducing noise, but still use resources to do the job. Although you can Freeze the track, I was thinking more along the lines of what other audio editors do, that actually modify the wave form and not have to use any CPU power after it is processed. It would be like Time Stretching, cut and pasting, Normalizing or any of the other wave editing Sonar already performs. And of course, still be nondestructive to reverse the process if needed.

Don't know if it's been brought up, but it would be nice to have a "Noise Reduction" add to the audio editor. Like the ones that sample a small section of noise and then rids the noise though out the whole wav file.

Select the point where you want the song to end. Split the track at that point (right click on track and select "split"). Delete everything AFTER the split point.