Henrizzle

I just did another giant mix this morning in StudioOne, took about an hour and a half. Same mix as I have done in Cakewalk. In Cakewalk, it took weeks sometimes months because there seems to be this scratchy-ness that is mixed in and you can never get it to sound clear. I'm here to tell you, spend $99 on StudioOne, the cost of this free software is now your sanity. I'm outta here, no more Cakewalk madness for me. Good luck everyone and stop giving all the voodoo advise, the issue is plain and simple, this software is buggy and not maintained because it is free.

Another problem that leads to the unknown without seeing the source code. The dither has an issue. For example, if you record 24bit -> 24bit data, Cakewalk applies a dither on the data. Dither is intended to statistically yield detail in the bits that would otherwise be truncated. For example, if you are recording 24bit -> 16bit data there should be a dither to yield some detail in the 8bits of resolution you lost. So it seems either this feature is not well tested or the idea of dither is not properly understood by the software engineers doing the source code. To see this simply record some silence from your 24 bit driver with the record data set to 24bits, blow up the track vertically. Next set the data to 32bits and you see there is no dither.

It is unlikely these days that these 2 tracks would cancel out. Mainly because some plugins and the DAW as well is using random number generator to do a dither, rendering with slightly different bits on each pass. Okay this is my third day on StudiOne, I'm convinced Cakewalk even when there are no oblivious artifacts has some issues. The reason is when I'm mixing the same tracks on StudioOne it just sounds smoother and more pleasant, making the mix go fast and easy. I can dial it in in a few hours, on Cakewalk it went day after day after day, into months, still doesn't sound 100% good.

Do yourself a favor and try another DAW. I spent $99 on StudioOne Artist version, has everything I need, did 3 mixes today. Super easy without issues and artifacts. So I am leaving Cakewalk after over 20 years of using this DAW. It is not being maintained, currently I am experiencing these issues: - Artifacts with multiprocessing mix threads, also encountered artifacts once using single thread render, so there is some core sync issue with audio frames and tasks - UAD2 plugins, playback studders then grinds to halt if you add plugin while running, sometimes even crashes or program is stuck in loop and unresponsive, adding these plugins while running works perfectly in StudioOne - Some tracks with volume envelopes will disappear using Multiprocess render - Config file setting don't work. For example, there is a setting to specify not to allow multiprocessor render on export, it does not work, instead you have to change to single thread in preferences to render without the artifacts and tracks disappearing - Takes a very klong time sometimes to open project, this also points to threads out of sync and is waiting for something to happen, sometimes stuck forever Hopefully these and other issues will get addressed when Cakewalk is no longer free. For now I realized I wasted lots of time with this and should have spent the $99 a lot sooner.

Okay I have officially moved to StudioOne, was able to get the Artist version for $99 it has all the features I need. The same mixes using same tracks and same plugins works perfectly in StudioOne, as a matter of fact I can put on lots more without running into this issue. This is not an issue with something configured wrong, rather it is an issue with multiprocessor mix threads synchronization like I have stated. So when you are running below threshold, it is simply getting lucky most of the time (threads completed in correct order for the audio frame). As soon as the system approaches about 28% or so on my machine it stops getting lucky. So if the developers are seeing this please check for multiprocessor safe mutexes and semaphores AND look for a place where you actually forgot to put a sync object this is where it is getting lucky.

Hi David, It all works perfectly with single processor. It actually works better when I offload more of the processing to UAD2. The problem is when there is more native processing. There is a threshold where the mixing threads stop getting lucky because there is thread sync object somewhere that is not multiprocessor safe. I have been doing digital audio software for over 20 years, I don't do the voodoo style troubleshooting. When this threshold is crossed there is only about 28% processor usage, so it has to be a mutex or semaphore that is not processor safe. In single processor case all the stuff gets serialized on the one processor there is no sync issue. Also the random elements I mention would not cause this issue as they are random elements meant to dither while the data pipeline is the same everytime. Well I don't agree with this stripping method of trouble shooting, this is voodoo. There is a cause and effect to everything. Again the UAD is not the issue as the more native stuff I remove to put o UAD it pop and scrapes less. Anyhow, thanks but this sort of voodoo trouble shooting it not useful in this thread, I have contacted Cakewalk support and they are investigating the issue. Even if they can just get the option working where you specify no multi thread rendering for the export it would be an improvement as then you can be sure there arn't these artifacts that you notice later in the export. For now I am changing to single processor render to export then changing back to multiprocessor to do mix adjustments.

No virtual instruments, all PCM tracks. Real time render is worse, you can her the pops and scrapes. This is not a voodoo do a disc check sort of thing, it is clearly related to multiprocessing threads synchronization.

I also have to mention. Other issues with multi processor rendering is that sometimes when you have gain automation on a track for example, the track disappears. I noticed this first time earlier this year, those I fixed those by removing the automation and editing the track. This also point to where the render threads are out of sync.

Hi bvideo, I tired it all, with and without plugin load balancing. I even edited the aud.INI to set AllowOfflineMixThreads to TRUE and FALSE and it didn't actually make offline render single thread.. the setting doesn't work. I thought at least I can make the offline renders single thread without having to change the multiprocessing to single by using this option... but nope... so there are lots of things that doesn't work it seems. I think there are not many users that actually run that many tracks and busses and plugins to show the problem. While others are getting little artifacts without knowing it. I did a binary compare of the output between single and multiprocessor, even when you don't hear oblivious artifacts there are differences in the output binary. So I'm still doing some research, it's possible that mastering is using a random number generator to do dithering for 24 -> 16 bit that could account for the differences. I think the next step is to take one of the stock demo projects and render in multi and single processor then do a diff of the output. I'm out of time today. Was trying some mixes in Studio One, so far it seems good but I compared the data between source -> output -> input, it seems to have some filtering that changes the data more than I think it should when there are no plugins or any sort of processing at all. I ran the same test on Cakewalk... all same hardware, the result is a a little more reasonable. Here are the specs for the PC, this is offline rendering at this point so ASIO driver is not to blame but I am using Orion32HD Gen3. Device name WIN11_20230609 Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-9900K CPU @ 3.60GHz 3.60 GHz Installed RAM 64.0 GB System type 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor Edition Windows 11 Pro Version 22H2 Installed on ‎6/‎9/‎2023 OS build 22621.1992 Experience Windows Feature Experience Pack 1000.22644.1000.0 49 tracks, 27 busses, about 90+ plugins, some native some UAD2 DSP.

Okay I sent a message to support@cakewalk.com lets see how it goes.

I got both latest Cakewalk and Sonar running on same system. Only issue is Sonar makes reference to GUIDs differently for some plugins so it can't find them while they are clearly there in the FX menu. Anyhow, I don't wish to tackle this GUID issue at this time as there is no need to. I'm exporting my catalogue of songs using single processor as there is no telling whether there were small artifacts from the multi processor exports I did before... that's REALLY scary. You don't want to find out there are artifacts after you've published them and hear them on streaming service :0

BTW I installed my Sonar X1 Producer again... OMG this UI is an eye-sore. The new Cakewalk UI is so much easier to look at HAHA!

I have been a software engineer for over 25 years. I can tell you this is a problem with sync between the render threads as this is a non-real time render for "exeport". So CPU, sound card does not come into play here. Rather there are sync objects like semaphores and mutex to sync threads that are not implemented properly or more than one buffer is on the same cache page being flushed by different threads at the same time. These projects are hollywood style mixes with all real instruments so there are lots and lots of tracks and busses. Currently this project, I am looking at 49 tracks and bus assignments out to "AC". There is native plugins as wells as UAD2 DSP. None of this is the issue as the single processor render does it perfectly.

Hi bvideo, You can disable the multiprocessing from the advanced preferences menu. In this case the rendering routines are "step locked" as it can only execute serially. You can see in the performance meter there is only one processer in this case and it can no longer render in real time with large projects due to CPU load. It doesn't matter buffer size, I have the offline render buffer set to largest possible. The offline render or "export" does not care about buffer size as this is not done in real time and takes as long as it takes to complete the render. If anything, I think the artifacts will probably be bigger and more noticeable with bigger buffers as they are likely to be buffer sized. 64 bit precision on or off has same issue. I have tried everything, in the end I have deduced the multiprocessing is the problem as I can get consistently a good mix using single processing. I have installed my old Sonar X1 producer, unfortunately somehow some of the plugin GUIDs are different so it can;t find them while they are clearly available in the menu, so I can't just load the same project to get the same mix. It will take me awhile to build the same project using all the same plugins... so I will try that later after I finish some tasks at hand. Currently I am exporting my catalogue of songs using single processing, this is the only way I can be sure there are no artifacts, overall the mixes sound a bit clearer, I'm guessing even when there are no huge artifacts to notice there are small ones that typically effects how tight the bottom end is as low frequencies have long waves and are particularity vulnerable to small imperfections.

Hello, Not sure who is reading this. So it was early on this year when I was remixing some old songs and I noticed sometimes certain tracks with volume automation would disappear in the render with export. Then recently I notice lots of pops and scraps. Today I notice pops and scrapes were making its way into the export. So after some thoughts and experimenting I disabled multi processing. Now the export works correctly, and oddly enough the tracks sound cleaner and the bass is better, so maybe even if it wasn't something hugely noticeable it had some artifacts with multiprocessing. So with this fact one can deduce that either thread synchronization is not correctly implemented or buffers are not allocated and aligned to cache size thus possibly causing corruption when two or more threads performs operations on a cache page that includes buffers from more than one source. I hope this makes it to the developers, I can provide projects that show this issue. If this can't get solved I will have to use a different DAW. I have used Cakewalk since the late 90s and I think it is great until now. Thanks! Henrizzle