SuperFreq

I'm going to try that next. Although I survived the real heart stopper (all my old projects being frozen), I'm still encountering problems. After loading in safe mode & skipping all VC64 plugs, I started adding them back one at a time. Apparently it can only handle 5 instances of VC64 on playback before it goes silent and freezes up. This is in Windows 11... I actually did a total reinstall of Win11 & Sonar 8.5 just to be sure it wasn't an installation hitch. So next I'm going to try the X2 installation of VC64. If that doesn't work I'll roll back to Windows 10, or maybe Win7 because I always preferred that over 10. Might seem drastic but I used the heck outta VC64! It's probably my most used plugin ever. Fingers crossed that the X2 version of VC64 clears it up because that'll make my life a lot simpler...

[SOLVED] I didn't install X2 but instead I used scook's safe mode trick to skip all VC64 plugs. Reloaded VC64 on the same tracks and voila, everything works! ?

Brilliant, will do! I did create a new Sonar 8.5 project, and VC64 loaded & worked fine. The problem seems to be with old project files that have VC64. Trying to reinstall VC64 with the X2 installer now... will post update...

Huge thanks for checking on that! Now I can narrow it down. Ok so it's not a VC64 compatibility issue with Win11, at least not via CbB. I tried reinstalling Sonar 8.5 but the problem persists. Maybe it's the project file itself but it's happening on 3 I've tested. Next I'll try starting a new project and putting it on a brand new track...

[SOLVED] See post #6 Talking about the old plugin Vintage Channel 64 that came with Sonar up until X2. I just upgraded my computer to Windows 11 with a clean wipe/install of everything. The problem is all old projects that use VC64 are silent on that track. Even worse, if I try to disable, delete or open the VC64 plugin it freezes my DAW forcing an Endtask (I'm using Sonar 8.5). Everything worked fine on the same machine running Windows 10. So that leads me to believe something about my Windows 11 installation--or maybe Windows 11 itself--doesn't jibe with VC64. I realize I may be the only one who has VC64 installed, but in case there are any old timers who have it on Windows 11, can you check to see if it works?

Same can be said about music in general; I haven't heard any new musical ideas since the late 90s. BUT I still enjoy listening to new bands of all genres just to hear the new production tricks that are being used. That's one area where even metal is getting some fresh ideas. I'm talking about metal bands borrowing production ideas from other genres like electronica & techno but really ballzing it up. Have you heard Psychlon Nine? They themselves are a 10 year old band, sorta rehashing the early 90s clubmetal sound (think The Crow soundtrack), but their production is updated and I think it really works. You're right, musically, nothing particulary new... but you gotta admit it's got kick. Not to mention any singer who gets bitchtackled off the stage and gets back up to finish the verse has my respect ?

Standard even-tempered (MIDI) tuning works, but I was wondering if anyone had experimented with alternate tunings. I'm about to tune a piano for a recording, and I was thinking of trying some of the Just tuning alternates because I want to preserve certain perfect intervals, especially the perfect 5th (downward = 4th). Guitarists, whether they know it or not, often use a type of Just tuning which preserves the 4th. If you tune your guitar by ear, matching the 4th of each string to the next open string, there you go. But my plan is to tune an entire piano this way. Any thoughts or experiences?

Not sure if this is exactly what you're doing but I've gotten good results with this strategy. But I don't do it for every track, just for tracks that need to pop out, like drums/percussion, vocals and solo instruments. For example with drums I have the regular DRUMS bus and I also create a sidechain called DRUMS CLIFF (for that "extra little push over the cliff" if you catch the ref), and the CLIFF bus has extreme EQ and compression that really pulls it to the forefront. Has to be used sparingly of course, because if you do this with every track in your mix then what's the point lol. But yea I feel like I get good results. Not long ago I learned that Andrew Scheps (Chili Peppers, lots of great bands from the 90s-00s) does something similar. So if I'm in the right ballpark, I'd say check out some Andrew Scheps tutorials on youtube for some ideas!

Just a lighthearted thread to vent. I'm sure a lot of people might enjoy the stuff that makes my eyelid twitch. But for the sake of us music makers, how about a list of things that bother us about popular music. 1. People who play a lame harmonica, just because it's there. Yes, I'm looking at you, Bob Dylan. And basically anyone who uses one of those Darth Vader harmonica neck straps. Nobody wants to hear you inhale & exhale your 2 chords that sound like a drunk weasel gettin busy on a pair of uggs. Instead think of hiring a real harmonica player, those guys rock. Compare Billy Joel Piano Man harmonica (eyetwitch galore) with his follow up Leave A Tender Moment Alone where he got the amazing Toots Thielemans to smoke a mean comb. Now that's what I'm talkin bout.

You nailed it haha. Well, maybe even worse... These aren't midi beats I'm manipulating. It's an actual drum performance that I'm monkeying with, so I'm nudging wav files. I'm trying to keep it simple, like nudging the drums a few ticks in front of the beat/instruments for a measure or two. In this particular song it's very sparse, mainly just a piano and vocals, so I have a lot of leeway. By bumping the drums in front, it makes it sound like the piano is kinda lazy in a good way, but psychologically the drums are pulling the instruments and the listener. I dunno man, like I said earlier, may be the placebo effect and actually it's doing nothing. I wish I were a drummer so I would know instinctively how to manipulate the beat. But I'm stuck doing the mouse click approach PS that's hilarious about BP's tall tales. From what I saw in the video he seems like the kinda guy who could invent a good yarn

I didn't watch the entire vid, but those grooves (Fool In The Rain, Rosanna) are definitely what I'm going for. They add a subtle busyness to the rhythm, without overcomplicating it, that really injects energy into the song. Didn't know Purdie was the guy who invented it!

Awesome, so for example if the beat is a straight kick on 1 &3 with snare on 2&4, would it "rush" the beat if you nudge the snares (2&4) forward in time, for just a measure or two? Or could the same kick/snare tightening be accomplished by nudging the kick (1&3) later? I'm doing a bunch of experiments, but at this point I think I'm hearing only a placebo effect. That's why I'm wondering if there are official "rules" amongst drummers.

Thanks for those suggestions, I'll definitely keep them in mind in addition to timing. I really want to explore leading & lagging the beat though. Inspired by a multitrack I found of Zeppelin where you can see Bonham plays with this. It's really effective.

Are there any rules of thumb about drums leading or lagging the beat and how it affects the feel of the music? In particular, I have a downtempo song (~72 bpm) and I want to inject some subtle energy dynamics aside from volume and pitch. In some parts I want it to feel rushed while in other parts I want it to feel more laid back, but all keeping the same basic tempo since I'm using rigid loops. My gut tells me if the drums lead the beat by a hair, say 1/128th note, that'll give a slightly rushed feel while lagging gives it a more lazy feel... Am I on the right track?

Hahaha man, that’s one thing I refuse to compromise on: the tiktok attention deficit thing. To me, the whole point of prog was to force the listener into an immersive experience lasting an entire album. So I guess that rules out promoting myself on tiktok or youtube shorts. Attracting an audience through a lifestyle play does seem to bridge generations, but I kinda cringe at that strategy because it sorta diminishes the music while promoting the fad. Ever see that Sarah Silverman episode about jam bands? She gets up on stage and calls out the audience, telling them they’re only enjoying the show because they’re sky high on drugs. So she makes them all promise to come back the next night totally sober. And then they all realize the band sucks ?

I didn’t think of that but you’re totally right. Prime example: Amy Winehouse did a lot of smoky lounge jazz stuff and it was hot with the kids. Of course she did have a modern production sound also, but I think mainly she had a great marketing strategy, a very “now” look & attitude that would’ve sold itself even if she were doing polka music.

My point is that those kids, that demographic, is the target audience I'd like to reach. So I want to avoid having a production sound that would immediately pigeonhole me as an older generation. Sticking with the Kashmir example, the kids loved it after I told them it was worth a listen. But the conversation turned to "yeah I like the older stuff... sometimes..." And I don't blame them. When I was a teenager I wasn't interested in songs that were made before I was born. Average teenagers want music that they can identify with as their own generation, not something that sounds like mom & dad's music. Take for example Lorde's "Royals" released in 2013. That song, on paper, is so similar to Queen's "We will rock you" - take a minimalist beat, throw an a capella vocal on top, build up to a thick, layered chorus. But the production is entirely different; it has a distinctly 2010s sound - crisp highs, deep kick drum, heavily compressed vocals. It definitely sounded very new, even though the idea goes back to 1977. I'd love to take it to the next step, go hardcore 70s prog, but I want that new production sound which will get kids interested. Hence this thread. What are your suggestions?

I stand by my statement because I witnessed it firsthand. Was out with a younger crowd, a girl was flipping through the radio dial and lands on Zeppelin Kashmir. Scrolls right past it. I said "whoa go back that's a classic!" She went back and everyone loved it. That's all I meant.

Fantastic! Kudos for using all traditional instruments. Great playing and great vocalist too. On a tangent, have you seen the film Songcatcher from 2000? Interesting flick, starring Aidan Quinn & Janet McTeer, about a 1900s musicologist who discovers the "missing link" in a remote village in Appalacia, where traditional Scottish & Irish ballads have been preserved through generations of isolated mountain musicians. Worth watching for the soundtrack alone. This song would've been a perfect fit.

With plugins I go thru a lazy rotation, they all seem to do basically the same thing so it comes down to spontaneity. BUT there are 3 plugins I've found that do the job hands down better than anything else in their league. These are Brainworx MasterDesk for mastering (FREE from Plugin Alliance) Cakewalk Sonar VintageChannel VC64 for lead vocals (Only available in Sonar 7 & 8 I think?) Waves Chris Lord Algae Vocal for rock vocals - This one generates tons of extreme reactions from producers across the spectrum, fanboys & haters, but they all seem to agree on 1 point - nobody knows wtf it does ?

You're totally right about that, and it sucks because a lot of music critics go out of their way to create quippy labels because that's what gets them (the critics) their own recognition. Think of it, if a critic listened to your album and did a careful objective analysis of all the different influences, the article would read like molasses. But if a critic opens with a prominent "Wizards & Warlocks are alive and living in Germany!" that generates a buzz for their rag. So it's a tough balancing act, how do you indulge your musical influences without sounding like you're trying to be just like them? One example is Greta Van Fleet who will forever be stamped as a Zeppelin rip off. I haven't even heard their music but I've heard so many grumbles & heckles that I'll never be able to give them a fair shake; they're labeled before I even heard them! But you're right, at the end of the day ya just gotta go with what feels right, regardless of what people will say. If the music is good people will listen. Thanks for the prog suggestions btw, Spock's Beard is the only one I've heard, so I got a ton of research ahead of me!

Thanks I might do that very soon (post a song snippet for feedback). I've never listened to Devin Townsend but I'm off to do some research. And if you can believe it, I've never really listened to an entire Dream Theater album, only a few songs I may have caught on Youtube. You're right, I think their schtick is the wall of sound, and it works for them. It's interesting to note that DT rose to prominence by contradicting the minimalist "unplugged" sound that would dominate late 80s-90s airplay. So I guess the takeaway is that you can't predict what will work based on generational trends alone. Good point about how sometimes "old becomes new", and a great example of that might be the recent Beatles reissues from master tape. I haven't heard them all, but supposedly they worked hard to preserve the original sound, but just with a cleaner restoration of the mixes. And it seems to be gaining traction with fans both old & young. Then again, they're the freakin Beatles. They've built up their street cred so they can sound like whatever they like. My concern is that a new artist hitting the scene with a debut album will immediately get labeled based on initial impressions. So the debut artist has to be careful not to sound like a cliché right out of the gate.

Suppose you were, say, Eddie Offord producing Yes 1971-1973. Fragile, Close to the Edge, Tales from Topographic Oceans. But the year is 2023. You don't want to alienate young listeners by having a dated sound (more on "dated sound" below); you want to present it in a way that will capture even the average pop fan's ear. At least until you get to that 3 min drum solo on side 4 ? What would you do differently? Ok let's talk about the "dated sound" aspect. I'm not using that term negatively, I'm personally a huge fan of that 70s sound just like I think all Billie Holiday songs should be lo-fi like that dated 1940s sound. But you gotta admit, the average kid today will scroll past it on the radio dial just because it has that old sound. In other words, how would you do prog music with today's sound? This is where it gets subjective so all thoughts are welcome. But I feel like today's sound has much crisper highs. Today's sound has more compression, and today's sound has instruments that are in your face, as opposed to the 70s prog wall of sound, or dreamscape, where the listener gets lost in the barrage of instrumentation--much like a symphony. So for starters, maybe we'd want to dial down or turn off all reverb, all delay, chorus, and all those 70s-80s effects designed to widen the sound. We would want to keep it tight and crisp. Agree, disagree, alternate suggestions? I'm asking because I'm working on a very 70s-prog-influenced album, but I don't want to just mimic the 70s prog sound. I'd love to come up with something unique that this generation can call its own while retaining all the 70s prog awesomeness that led here.

Thanks man... to you as well as everyone who has commented their similar experiences. Knowing that I wasn't alone in digging my heels into 8.5, yet seeing how you guys made the transition, is making me want to give CbB another effort. HUGE to hear that CbB is backward compatible with files as old as 1.0 (yes I have a bunch of those ?)! And indeed the sauce is how much CbB's developers are actively engaged in hearing & addressing your issues. I for one am sick of software companies that hide behind a brick wall, only peeking out occasionally to announce the standard "we're working on a few things". So for me right now the biggest roadblock is my Windows 7 machine. Honestly I would love to roll back to even XP, like you mentioned, because that thing was stable. But unfortunately for video production (Adobe) you're forced to update to Windows 7 at minimum. Bottom line, I'm still dragging my heels, but at least my feet are pointed in the right direction.........

Yup you guys know where I'm coming from... I regularly upgraded every edition of Sonar until I hit X1, really didn't like it, and that's how I ended up in my little 8.5 bubble. When I tried CbB I immediately noticed the missing "Every Damn Button Ever" situation ? and that's what cooled my jets. Furthermore, I'm a UA hardware user, UAD by association, and their teasing of Luna for Windows made me hold off on any major DAW migrations til I saw what they had to offer. Um... 3 years later they seem to have thrown Windows users under the bus, so CbB is once again my top pick for an upgrade when I'm ready. That's awesome that CbB will do all the 64 bit Sonar plugins I'm used to. That's a major plus. Customizing its theme to look like 8.5 would make things psychologically easier but I guess it's not imperative. But yeah those buttons... and keyboard shortcuts! Years of using Sonar have programmed my muscle memory into a rhythm of using buttons & shortcuts so it would be a major mind shift to learn to dig through menus. Sooner or later I'm sure I'll make the move. Probably after my next catastrophic Sonar crash where I lose an entire project (again lol). Those are the times when I'm most likely to make a radical change. We'll see..........