AxlBrutality

Quite some time ago I had this issue, and it caused me to abandon CbB for nearly two years. I returned and CbB has functioned almost flawlessly for about 6 months...until this morning when suddenly I'm dealing with the exact same issue. I went back and found a couple others that had the same issue way back when, but no surefire diagnosis seemed to come of it and/or their hardware/software situation was different than mine. CbB will randomly freeze. Sometimes when hitting play, sometimes when hitting stop, sometimes when editing a clip, sometimes when doing nothing at all. Happens with all plugins disabled, happens with all plugins enabled. Small projects, large projects, doesn't matter. happens more often when Cake is open for longer periods of time, which kinda makes it seem like a memory leak but I can't find any signs of such a leak. To add insult to injury, all of the work done in said session is lost, in spite of both auto-saving and manually saving. It's like the project was never even touched. And to make matters worse, no dump file is created, so I can't even have the devs take a look at it. I'm on the latest/final CbB build. My computer is fully updated. Windows Defender realtime scanning is off; updates are paused (I update manually). I don't have other AV or anything running in the background. All my plugins are updated. I also don't even run any of the same plugins that I ran two years ago (besides a handful of stock Sonitus plugs), as I did a full revamp of my workflow and tools a couple months ago (again, everything worked fine this go around until this morning). Also, nothing was specifically updated this morning to change anything. I ran /chkdsk with no errors reported. Computer is cleaned and defragged weekly. Cleaned picture cache and audio folders. Etc. System resource usage is very consistent and stable in every project, and no project of mine goes past 50% even with all plugins enabled. I don't even know that I'm asking for a resolution at this point; just posting in case someone else has the same problem I guess. I'm just tired, man.

Ahh, Cake forums....never change. "Can I do X?" "wHy wOuLd yOu wAnT tO dO X?" - The next 6 people. "Random admonishment about having project files backed up somewhere else, as if a musician/engineer of 20+ years doesn't operate that way by default" - At least one person. -questions left unanswered and/or misunderstood in lieu of Ex. B.

Okay, so I just want to make absolutely clear before I make certain decisions.... As I understand it, Cakewalk Sonar is a SxS install just like CbB was to Legacy, but it includes all the stock/native plugins from CbB (aside form the TTS-1 apparently, which I don't use). So theoretically, I can simply install Sonar, copy my active project files over to the Sonar projects folder, and safely uninstall CbB? I don't need to run them in parallel for any reason? My main concerns are: -being able to open those CbB projects and have everything as it was, including the settings on what few Sonitus plugins and a couple SI-Strings instances I still use. Some of these projects are active mixes that I don't want to get messed up or have things overwritten/plugins reset -do I then need to do a "save as" for those projects, or will they automatically convert or save as a Sonar file? Will I be left with the old CbB project files that I need to delete afterwards? Just trying to keep things tidy. -I've saved/installed numerous third party plugins within CbB plugin folders (CbB is the only DAW currently installed on this computer). Do I need to make sure I migrate those to Sonar folders before uninstalling CbB? -I believe I saw mentioned that Sonar will copy over some default settings/preferences (for example, all my projects are set to record in 24/44.8, stuff like that). No hidden surprises as far as things being reset are concerned? -nothing changed as far as basic routing and sends are concerned, correct? In other words, I'm not going to open my projects and suddenly not have things routed the right way? Apologies for possibly redundant questions (I promise I did read through the press releases and a few threads); I just know that migrating from legacy to CbB was a headache and I had to run them in parallel for quite some time because of plugins and synths no longer included, weird settings that got changed, etc....and even after I was finally able to uninstall legacy for good, I was left with a lot of cleanup and file management. (I do know that I'm going to probably have an unpleasant surprise with Truepianos, which I owned from Legacy and don't recall purchasing outright...yet I'm using it in CbB without issue in spite of not having Legacy on my computer anymore. So I have no idea. I guess I may or may not have to buy a piano VST, lol.)

I'm aware that there's technically no set standard, but when the majority of other major DAWs operate a certain way and almost every modern drum software operates under the assumption that it's done that way when presenting their mapping to their userbase...it makes sense to stick with that (or change to it) other than being the odd man out, not having any clear notation about it, and thus being a friction point for unaware or new users. Which leads me to the next point...I have used this software for 20 years and wasn't aware/never noticed that option, or I did but had zero clue what it meant or did (because I honestly had no reason to). (Yes, I'm sure it's buried somewhere in the documentation, but come on...lol.) One of many areas that contribute to our continued use of the word "unintuitive". And like I said, that's just one example of many, and things build up after a certain point. And when we're talking about the one area of cake that hasn't been touched, while an awful lot of other things that arguably didn't necessarily need so much attention have been....yea. Again, I also have a lot of colleagues that have worked with a lot of DAWs and they all say that working with drums in Cake has always had the most friction points and outdated/unintuitive ways of doing things. Starship: Unfortunately, I will say that some of these issues are pretty strange though, and even I haven't had issues with them. My track templates pop up with AD2/Krimh/whatever loaded, all ins/outs correctly routed, and the correct maps loaded as well, so something's definitely off there. I wish I could help. Getting there is always a headache, but once I have things set and templates created it works 90% of the time and I'm set for literal years.

Yea, the phantom/pre-roll recording has been a lauded and core feature of PT since at least 2007 (since I went to audio school). While I've never found myself in many situations where I could have used it, it has always seemed to be a popular feature and I've been curious why many popular DAWs still haven't implemented it almost 20 years later (or were very slow to adopt it).

I just want to hop in here and say I'm glad someone is still beating this drum (heh). I also share the frustration of bring up issues with drum maps and the drum pane and having 800 people be like "well I just use the regular PRV". Okay, well that's great, but please stop jumping in and encouraging devs to kick it to the back burner just because it doesn't affect you or you don't use it. I mean this with all due politeness and respect, but "I just use the PRV" isn't helpful to the discussion and doesn't encourage changes to be made. Speaking more for myself here....some of us specialize in genres with typically far more complex and fast drum arrangements with a ton of subtleties (technical death metal, deathcore, etc.) where the drum grid is INFINITELY easier to work with when it comes to manual programming and adjustments. We may not be the "norm", but we are not insignificant either. NO ONE I know who works in these genres uses the regular PRV and regular note displays (in any DAW) for their drum programming. (So @Starship Krupa, no, you are not alone and it's not "fallen out of fashion" in any way...it's actually MORE common now in certain genres than it ever was.) The unintuitiveness and clunkiness of setting up new drum maps and even setting up the drum pane and getting it to work in new projects was definitely a barrier for me many years ago. I had the advantage of a close friend and professional who primarily used Cakewalk at the time (he has since long moved on from Cake) to guide me through some of it, but it was still frustrating. I was then of course able to set up templates and simply copy/paste them over the years. But I recently made the switch from AD2 to Krimh Drums and had to create new maps and templates and oh boy, that involved me going through a lot of the same nonsense all over again. It reminded me of just how disastrous Cakewalk/Sonar is compared to other DAWs in how they handle MIDI drums in general. For example, no one on planet earth seemed to have a drum map for Krimh for Cakewalk yet, so I had to create one. Got everything input and saved after about an hour of work, only for nothing to work....because I wasn't aware that for some god forsaken reason, you have to pitch everything up two octaves when inputting your mapping values in Cakewalk. Cakewalk does so many things here in a bizarre and outdated fashion from other DAWs and there's literally no way for a new user to know. Only reason I figured it out is because that same friend from many years ago instantly recognized the issue because he's worked extensively with several DAWs and a half a dozen or more drum programs over the last 5-10 years. Not everyone has a friend like mine. Lol. Many of these issues are little, stupid issues, but they add up and at the end of the day, many of us are musicians first and it interrupts our creative workflow. But more to the point, we have been begging for specific and general changes to these system for literal years and we always go through the same cycle of devs "taking note" and "making plans" but it's the one system that has never actually been updated....and that's frustrating.

I will say that I'm definitely at a crossroads myself. I've been with Cake/Sonar since 2004. Started with Music Creator 2003 and upgraded from there. Been through every iteration, every ownership change, every purchase platform/subscription, etc. Even though I became ProTools and Logic certified in audio school in 2007, I stuck with Cake/Sonar for my personal projects afterwards simply due to cost and familiarity/habit. Even though most of the people I've worked with in recent years use other DAWs (mainly Cubase these days), I've still stayed. I have close friends that were similar champions of Cakewalk who have abandoned it in recent years and have been pounding their fist on the table for me to switch every time I have issues...but again, I've stayed. I'm a creature of habit. Plus, I almost continually have major projects going on and have not wanted to take the time to migrate things. I've been through a lot of highs and a lot of lows with the software, the devs, and the community. Mostly highs, though, (let me stress that)...and until a few years ago I was one of Cake's biggest champions and defenders. But there were always a lot of little points of friction that eventually built up over time, both in the actual software, the time spent with devs trying to identify/fix bugs and errors, and also in the way marketing/ownership/etc. has been handled. Those points came to a head in 2022 when I lost a TON of work (about 4 hours of tracking) due to a CbB not actually saving (in spite of appearing to) and then eventually crashing...and I basically lost my sh** and walked away. Some of you may remember my blowup here on the forums before I basically disappeared. While I will say that blowup came from a legitimate place and my feelings were valid, I didn't approach it in the best way, I was not constructive, and I was pointlessly combative...and for that I apologize. I ended up walking away from my own music and from audio work in general for a time after that, and eventually began investigating other options. But I once again found my way back to CbB...again, the cost (or lack thereof), the familiarity, the fact that I still had several standing projects hanging out in CbB, etc. all playing a part. I've been out of the loop entirely until just yesterday regarding Cakewalk Sonar and the price/subscription model, and the sunsetting of CbB. Mainly because, for possibly the longest stretch in recent memory, CbB has actually functioned flawlessly for me and I haven't had reason to return here. (Plus, of course, I didn't leave the forums on the best terms.) I'm torn right now. On one hand, I never expected this DAW to remain free. Even Reaper isn't technically free. (The promise of this DAW remaining free forever was a convenient lie that we all knew was a lie but went along with anyway, and tbh it's whatever.) I also never expected it to remain the exact same; I was always prepared to change and evolve with the software. What I did not expect was a completely separate and new DAW installation...for the same DAW...for the third time in less than a decade. That's insanely annoying. I'm tired of the complete rebuilds and "rebrands", tbh. No other major DAW goes through this every few years. I also didn't expect what feels like a shady means of forcing users into a Bandlab subscription. I don't care about Cakewalk Next. I don't care about Bandlab. I have never used Bandlab, nor do I ever intend to. I was annoyed enough about the Bandlab integration and having to have a BL account and profile/social page, but I understood it. But it feels...idk, disingenuous and kinda shady to structure the actual subscription/account this way. (Even the notorious Adobe isn't like this, on these two points. You just...update things. No completely new installs every couple of years, and you're never forced into anything else/any of their other platforms.) Unlike some here, I do actually like subscription models inasmuch as you're not forced to cough up hundreds of dollars at once for a product. Not all of us routinely have that much cash laying around. The accessibility is nice. But not having a path to, or option of, outright ownership is annoying. Almost every other DAW and plugin company has this figured out. Plugin Alliance gives you your choice of plugin ownership each year. Reaper guarantees their licensing for two full rebuilds/versions and continues to support old versions/allow you to use updated versions for free. Cubase, S1, etc. are all outright purchases that are still supported when newer versions come out. Even Slate...who people are really not happy with at times....still allows you to buy plugins individually outright, in spite of their crappy All Access Pass not being an R2O. Numerous R2O options exist. Etc. (This is where Cakewalk is aligning with Adobe on probably their weakest and most hated characteristic.) But anyway... At the end of the day...I'm looking at having to a) install a new DAW, b) pay for a DAW, and c) migrate projects to that DAW. Which is fine.... But what, exactly, is my motivation for sticking with Cakewalk, when almost every other major DAW does the exact same things that Cakewalk does....without the lack of a path to ownership, without the constant rebrands and complete rebuilds/new installs, without sneakily shoving us into bundled memberships on platforms we don't care about, etc.? That's a genuine question that I'm trying to answer myself. I also feel like the ownership/marketing/powers that be are a bit disconnected from the userbase (not as bad as the Gibson days, granted, but yea), and I will say that there are features and reworks to major systems that have been mass requested for years and never addressed (drum mapping, anyone?). I'm not sure how many of these are finally solved with Cakewalk Sonar, as I have yet to do a deep dive into it and of course haven't installed it. But yea, idk. I want to stick with Cake. But if I have to pay for something and go through an all-new install and setup, and I'm stuck with a management model and ownership that I don't really quite trust at this point...I need to know what sets it apart from literally any other DAW on the face of the planet. And how long until the next ownership change/rebuild/new install/new purchase model/whatever? Maybe I'm still just being resistant to change and my annoyances aren't valid, idk. Feel free to tear me down. But I'm just....hesitant. For now, I'll use CbB until it finally breaks or something I really need becomes incompatible with it...and cross that bridge when I get there. P.S.: Is there a way to turn off the "give us money and install our new thing" notification I get every time I launch CbB now?

And this is the other reason why I'm leaving Cakewalk and it's forums. The default is always to blame to user or their hardware first and foremost; it's been that way since the height of Sonar's known instability issues. I'm not inexperienced. I could rant about how I've had this happen on numerous machines over the years. I could rant about how there's very few, if any, background processes that run on my machine while I'm working, including all the basic stuff that we caution people about (cloud syncing, antivirus, etc.) I could rant that my current machine has been just fine up to this point, and will likely be just fine long after I uninstall Cakewalk. I could rant about how I pay pretty close attention to performance stats; I could rant that this computer can easily handle 3x the load that gets put on it with the current project. I could rant about any number of things, but it doesn't matter because people treat you like a wet-behind-the-ears engineer fresh out of audio engineering school who doesn't know the basics of how computers work or what an optimal build is for this type of work. I understand that software can and will have issues regardless of the name on it or the devs behind it. But I also know firsthand how happy many of my peers are with the industry-standard programs...including a close friend of mine (a professional engineer who switched from Sonar to Cubase years ago) who has been screeching at me to switch every time a problem like this occurs. Again, there's a reason Cakewalk has never been able to compete on that level. Things like this are why. I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by switching to a more stable, more well-supported, industry-standard program that doesn't lose me hours of work at a time at least once a year for as long as I can remember.

I have stuck by Cakewalk for almost 15 years. Through all the highs and lows, through all the changes...I've been their biggest champion and their most intense apologist. I've spent hours and hours and hours with devs and customer service tracking down bugs and resolving issues. I stuck by CW/Sonar through the worst of the instability issues in years past. I've stuck by this program in spite of INFURIATING losses of work, and workflow stoppages, over the years due to random crashes, auto-save not actually working, and any variety of random problems over the years. Today was the final straw. I lost 4 HOURS worth of vocal recording at once due to a freeze that came out of the blue. No recent changes, no new plugins, everything is updated, nothing running in the background, etc. I simply clicked on my timeline as I have a million times before and the program froze, necessitating a force-close and the loss of ALL my work in spite of auto-save being enabled. This isn't the first time such a thing has happened, but it came at a VERY bad time and was the final straw. NO ONE I know who uses Cubase, PT, S1, etc. has these kinds of issues as routinely as I have with Cakewalk, nor have I in my time with other programs on this machine (which, by the way, is more than powerful enough to handle anything I throw at it). Could I go down the days, weeks, even months-long rabbit hole with CBB trying to track down the cause of this one? Sure. But I've been there before...multiple times. I'm not doing it again. I've given enough of my life to the devs tracking down issues over the years. I have better things to do with my time than spending hours not getting paid just to track down yet another issue that caused me hours of work loss in the first place. This kind of stuff, right here, is why Cakewalk has never been able to compete commercially with its peers....and never will. So long, CBB....you screwed me over for the last time. My sanity is worth more than wasting it contributing to your desperate attempts to stay relevant in this industry.

So...I'm kinda heated right now, not gonna lie. I created a new project. Got all my files imported, did about an hour and a half of work with some balancing and panning and editing and some light EQ and compression going on on the drums and bass...things are going good. I go to create a send and forget that all my tracks are selected, so it does it on every single track. Lol, whoops. So I'm going through and deleting sends...I get about halfway through and all of a sudden the second I delete another send, the entire project crashes to desktop without warning. No hang or freeze, no errors or warnings, saves literally none of the work done that entire time (even though I have auto-save enabled), no dump file, nothing. It straight up closes out, and it's like the project never even existed and nothing was ever done. I didn't really have a whole lot going on yet plugin-wise, so CPU load, RAM, etc. were all fine and I only had like 4 different plugins (maybe ten instances total) even inserted in the project...and those few plugins I've been using just fine in other projects and aren't very resource intensive (VBC-Grey, Sonitus Compressor, Infinity EQ, and a Slate FG-X on my master). I have HUGE, intensive projects I've been working on on this machine (that involve these same plugins as well) and have had no issues, fwiw. I know that's not a lot to go on, but I literally don't have anything to go on. Again, there was no hang/freeze, no warnings or errors, and no dump file was created. I will say it's eerily similar to a bug we had a couple of years ago where the same thing would happen occasionally when inserting a send (you would literally insert a send and the project would automatically crash out about 75% of the time, and you would lose all work done in the session, even if it had been auto-saving). Now apparently it does it rarely when deleting a send. It's bizarre. Anyway, it's late and I'm exhausted and angry and after literally just wasting two hours of my life and losing a bunch of work I'm gonna go to bed. I'll check back here in the morning, lol.

Thanks. I never used the in-app "Update now" function until now because I just kinda assumed it still used BA when actually updating, idk. Lol. I don't have a need for the loop library, so I'll go ahead and uninstall BA then. Thanks again!

So does this render BA pretty much obsolete at this point? Or do we need it installed still as an authenticator?

So, after spending about an hour trying to figure out why Ripple Edit wasn't correctly affecting the Tempo map, I realized there was an update to Cakewalk that specifically should address that issue. That's great and all, except I can't get Cake to update. BA just perpetually shows "Downloading...0/0" after hitting update. I've dealt with this for yet another hour. My computer is fully updated, I've restarted it twice, I've killed and restarted BA, I've uninstalled and reinstalled BA twice, Windows defender is turned off, I don't run any other AV, and my internet is just fine (gig internet with no current issues). Pretty frustrated right now, not gonna lie...especially considering the perpetual and historical issues with BA in general. Can anybody direct link the installer for the newest available version of Cakewalk, please? All I'm seeing are installers for rollback versions.

So, I guess my only question is, I'm assuming I should go in and change/turn on the new thread scheduling option? I'm assuming there's some sort of risk or possible adverse performance result involved, since it wasn't just made that way by default... I've sometimes actually encountered worse performance in the past when turning on things like the plugin load balancing option, hence my hesitation to try stuff like that.

Slightly off topic, but perhaps relevant considering the number of posts continuing to pop up in the feedback threads (and in bug threads in general). This is not directed towards any one person, and is something that has been said elsewhere recently by others, but yea. I will never understand people who cling for dear life to Windows 7, and then are surprised or dismayed when there are bugs or things that don't work with high-powered software such as DAWs when under load. You are using an OS which is over ten years (and several versions) old, in a day and age where technology, development, and coding literally changes every month. I get it. Change is hard and scary. But it's absolutely necessary and something I think older folks here are having a hard time accepting. It's 2020. Just upgrade to W10 and get it out of the way. It's not going to get any easier to adapt, change, and work out the kinks with your stuff, the longer you wait. And I can guarantee you'll have far fewer issues with bugs, incompatibilities, etc. The world is not going to wait for you. And frankly, it's not Cakewalk's (or anyone else's) responsibility to continue testing in W7 or trying to track down bugs in it. It's a waste of time and resources (especially for smaller dev teams) better spent improving the software for the other 95% of us who stay current with our configurations. And most of the excuses people often use really aren't valid anymore, or were never really rooted in fact in the first place. Sorry, just really needed to get that off my chest...and frankly, some people need to hear it.