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Olaf

75 workflow improvements to make Cakewalk more intuitive (+ appearance, implementation, etc.)

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On 12/24/2019 at 10:47 AM, Olaf said:

. . . I'm gonna use your advice, by keeping the browser minimized over the console, cause I find it harder to click and drag across different flipping windows, everytime.  I'd much rather have it open in the console, with automatic sliding of the bus, and drag and drop at will, just like you can do in the Track View, then close it, and recall it again easily, when you need it, from a click arrow, or mass select tracks, and drag and drop on all at once, which is another suggestion. Basically, all that you can do in the Track View, available in the Console, plus the mass drag.

One suggestion I thought of making that might fit with your workflow was having the option to have a few panes within the multidock--perhaps the ability to have 2 or 3 tabs open at the same time. I had something like that happen as a bug--one partial pane with actual functionality!  I didn't report it to staff as a bug for three reasons: (1) I hadn't written up the steps to reproduced it, (2) I hadn't written up ideas on how to turn it into a feature request, and (3) I selfishly wanted to keep the "undocumented feature" for myself until I found the time to document the bug-to-be-made-as-a request.  😉

 

Edited by User 905133
to insert a end quotation mark--"undocumented feature"
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From what I've seen, the bakers definitely use this forum and feedback to change the recipe which is evident in the updates. I remember making a complaint about something and it wasn't discussed much in this forum but the solution appeared in the next update. I don't think there is any harm in dumping 75 recommendations here. They might not be discussed in the forum because the list is too long. I am sure they are being read by the right people though and if they think there is merit in the changes and they are able to actually do something with the software side to accomplish the changes, they will.

It would probably work better in terms of forum discussions if the suggested workflow changes were delivered in smaller chunks.

Edited by Tezza
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15 hours ago, Tezza said:

From what I've seen, the bakers definitely use this forum and feedback to change the recipe which is evident in the updates. I remember making a complaint about something and it wasn't discussed much in this forum but the solution appeared in the next update. I don't think there is any harm in dumping 75 recommendations here. They might not be discussed in the forum because the list is too long. I am sure they are being read by the right people though and if they think there is merit in the changes and they are able to actually do something with the software side to accomplish the changes, they will.

It would probably work better in terms of forum discussions if the suggested workflow changes were delivered in smaller chunks.

Yes, you're right, I have the same impression, too. The Cakewalk/Bandlab guys seem very open, and are actively looking for ways to solve the problems, and improve the program, which is very encouraging for me/us, as users. This impression was an incentive in putting these suggestions together.

In fact, I've mentioned a couple of them already, directly to Noel, and he said we'll see them in the next release, very easy, just like that, which I found very cool. I also sent the complete list to him.

The difference in having people point out what they would like is it gives those points more attention/priority in implementation. Plus, it gives them feedback as to what people will think of those additions, which helps them. That could be useful for everybody.

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18 hours ago, User 905133 said:

One suggestion I thought of making that might fit with your workflow was having the option to have a few panes within the multidock--perhaps the ability to have 2 or 3 tabs open at the same time. I had something like that happen as a bug--one partial pane with actual functionality!  I didn't report it to staff as a bug for three reasons: (1) I hadn't written up the steps to reproduced it, (2) I hadn't written up ideas on how to turn it into a feature request, and (3) I selfishly wanted to keep the "undocumented feature" for myself until I found the time to document the bug-to-be-made-as-a request.  😉

 

Multi-docked tabs open at the same time? That may actually be a good idea.

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21 hours ago, Michael Vogel ( MUDGEL) said:

Seems you have a passion for using lots of words. My comment had nothing to do with egos, nor am I trying to trivialise your efforts. Nonetheless from more than 20 years working with Cakewalk, the software and the people, dressing your requests in a War and Peace length post will not bring you the result you desire. 
It’s a case of more posts each containing less words is what’s required to get your many points across, one at a time. 
This was the very first suggestion made but you clearly weren’t convinced. Believe it or not I’m really just trying to give you helpful advice. 

I appreciate your message. I don't have a passion for words, just haven't found a way of saying many things with a single sentence yet. As for for the complexity, it's not that hard. If you find something you want, too, just say I'd like this, this, and that, select the points you like, and click "quote selection". Or "this one's already impelemented". Maybe add something else, that you want. It's easy.

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On 12/24/2019 at 6:16 PM, Olaf said:

I'd like to have as much as possible be done on simple gestures, without thinking too much - it gets you out of the flow.

That's why I so often advocate for recording the best real-time  performance you can get to reduce the total amount of editing and arranging you have to do after the fact. To me, the gestures of playing and recording are the simplest, most enjoyable and most productive part of a project. I realize there are genres and compositional methods that inherently involve a lot more editing, but I just don't personally have a lot of interest in that side of making music.

I enjoy participating in the forum to help users understand and make good use of what already exists, and, in some cases, to work around limitations because they need to get something done, and can't wait months or years for a enhancement to make is easier. Discussing workflow efficiency, and how many clicks it takes to do this or that just isn't my bag.

If something is absolutely not possible or not working as advertised, or the workaround is grossly inefficient or painfully awkward, I'm likely to be more interested in lobbying the Bakers to address it.

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On 12/27/2019 at 5:56 AM, David Baay said:

That's why I so often advocate for recording the best real-time  performance you can get to reduce the total amount of editing and arranging you have to do after the fact. To me, the gestures of playing and recording are the simplest, most enjoyable and most productive part of a project. I realize there are genres and compositional methods that inherently involve a lot more editing, but I just don't personally have a lot of interest in that side of making music.

I enjoy participating in the forum to help users understand and make good use of what already exists, and, in some cases, to work around limitations because they need to get something done, and can't wait months or years for a enhancement to make is easier. Discussing workflow efficiency, and how many clicks it takes to do this or that just isn't my bag.

If something is absolutely not possible or not working as advertised, or the workaround is grossly inefficient or painfully awkward, I'm likely to be more interested in lobbying the Bakers to address it.

Completely agree David. I’m all for letting the Bakers, bake, and I’ll use what they provide to make music. If I can help someone here, great. Create a work around if needs be and it’s possible. If I’m in a hole maybe another piece of software will help me out. Usually does. 

I appreciate the relative engagement of the Bakers on the forum but the noise from thousands of contributors suggesting this change or complaining about what’s there or not there must be deafening at times. How could they possibly read and process every post. Let alone implement all the suggestions. Who’s do they choose. Best they just follow their internal roadmap, at least it will have cohesion.  

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12 hours ago, Michael Vogel ( MUDGEL) said:

Completely agree David. I’m all for letting the Bakers, bake, and I’ll use what they provide to make music. If I can help someone here, great. Create a work around if needs be and it’s possible. If I’m in a hole maybe another piece of software will help me out. Usually does. 

I appreciate the relative engagement of the Bakers on the forum but the noise from thousands of contributors suggesting this change or complaining about what’s there or not there must be deafening at times. How could they possibly read and process every post. Let alone implement all the suggestions. Who’s do they choose. Best they just follow their internal roadmap, at least it will have cohesion.  

Great pholisophy. I guess changing software is better and more helpful than just assisting Bandlab in having Cakewalk perform at its best.

One thing I don't understand, if change suggestions are "deafening" why seek them out, and still comment, but distructively, instead of ignoring them in the first place? You see, if I were bothered by the existence of improvement suggestions, I'd avoid them, instead of going in just to tell people to not have them.

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On 12/26/2019 at 8:56 PM, David Baay said:

That's why I so often advocate for recording the best real-time  performance you can get to reduce the total amount of editing and arranging you have to do after the fact. To me, the gestures of playing and recording are the simplest, most enjoyable and most productive part of a project. I realize there are genres and compositional methods that inherently involve a lot more editing, but I just don't personally have a lot of interest in that side of making music.

So, let me see if I understood you well: you agree that it's good to have a workflow that is intuitive and doesn't make you stop and think, but only in recording, and not in mixing or editing, because you don't make specific genres of music.

On 12/26/2019 at 8:56 PM, David Baay said:

If something is absolutely not possible or not working as advertised, or the workaround is grossly inefficient or painfully awkward, I'm likely to be more interested in lobbying the Bakers to address it.

This is a chance to do exactly that.

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13 hours ago, Michael Vogel ( MUDGEL) said:

I appreciate the relative engagement of the Bakers on the forum but the noise from thousands of contributors suggesting this change or complaining about what’s there or not there must be deafening at times. How could they possibly read and process every post. Let alone implement all the suggestions. Who’s do they choose. Best they just follow their internal roadmap, at least it will have cohesion.  

"the noise from thousands of contributors"? have you checked the traffic here - it's mainly songs and deals, much less about the app than the old forum - it should be a doddle for someone to keep track, especially for an "online" company like bandlab... then they get to cherry pick the things that make sense or are already on the backlog... they do seem to be using some kind of agile/scrum development methodology, and regular input/feedback from users is essential to that

/fwiw

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9 hours ago, Olaf said:

Great pholisophy. I guess changing software is better and more helpful than just assisting Bandlab in having Cakewalk perform at its best.

One thing I don't understand, if change suggestions are "deafening" why seek them out, and still comment, but distructively, instead of ignoring them in the first place? You see, if I were bothered by the existence of improvement suggestions, I'd avoid them, instead of going in just to tell people to not have them.

I’ve learnt that my personal wishes for Cakewalk features don’t matter one single iota. In more than 20 years association I’ve only known a very small number of user requests to be turned into features. 
Like any other goods, I buy what I need to do things I want. It’s not my job to create or try to influence the creators of the software I use. 
I came to the forum looking for answers and having found them and a community of generally helpful, generous people decided to stay. 
Sometimes there’s an opportunity to help. Sometimes people accept the help sometimes they don’t. C’est la vie. 

Edited by Michael Vogel ( MUDGEL)
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17 hours ago, Michael Vogel ( MUDGEL) said:

I’ve learnt that my personal wishes for Cakewalk features don’t matter one single iota. In more than 20 years association I’ve only known a very small number of user requests to be turned into features.

As Noel said , and I have no reason to doubt his words or believe he just said them, you will see at least two of these changes in the next release - for instance, the ability to open instruments directly from the console, by clicking on the track icon.

They're suggestions from this very list. He was very open about it.

A lot more - and that's my surprise - than people who actually stand to gain from them, but put more effort into justifying why they wouldn't want to ease their workflow,  and improve Cakewalk, in the process, which Bandlab actually welcome and need, than in actually helping.

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yes, the devs appreciate all input, but have to decide what requests to prioritise based on a bunch of factors, so you may or may not see your own requests implemented, but don't stop asking :)

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3 hours ago, pwalpwal said:

yes, the devs appreciate all input, but have to decide what requests to prioritise based on a bunch of factors, so you may or may not see your own requests implemented, but don't stop asking :)

That's exactly it, so feel free to request whatever you might find useful. We can't do everything for everybody, but if someone has a a good idea, we're definitely open to hear it. 

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On 12/31/2019 at 2:24 PM, pwalpwal said:

yes, the devs appreciate all input, but have to decide what requests to prioritise based on a bunch of factors, so you may or may not see your own requests implemented, but don't stop asking :)

yeap, the thing is that, if you agree with them, too, they become our requests, and the more, the merrier, as they say. 🤗

Edited by Olaf
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On 12/31/2019 at 6:09 PM, Jonathan Sasor said:

That's exactly it, so feel free to request whatever you might find useful. We can't do everything for everybody, but if someone has a a good idea, we're definitely open to hear it. 

Awesome! I imagine for things to become a priority, they need to be useful for more people. That's why I posted them here, hoping people would point out what they want themselves, so we can get a sense of the best improvements.  They seem to be reluctant to just say what they want or not, though, which I don't understand.

Edited by Olaf

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That's what I was talking about - I mean that's the idea behind the suggestions - make everything reflex, without a need to think about the procedures.

 

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Everything asked here for "Improvement" Cakewalk already produces way better workflow than your list. You're used to reason, so now you want to implement reasons work around (which I know extremely well) to Cakewalk.  It's like insulting someone's mother. 😟 NO! NO! NO! and that 75 of them? WOW!    

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On 1/25/2020 at 1:10 AM, _Will_ said:

Everything asked here for "Improvement" Cakewalk already produces way better workflow than your list.

You've got to be joking. "Everything", you say. Even those that don't exist yet, like drag & drop options, copying settings among FX, or opening instruments in the Console, "are working better" now.

You sound about right on one thing, though. You do sound like a Reason user.  Cause that's pretty much the tone that I'd started to be allergic to, on Reason forums. And they do react to talking about the program as if it was "like insulting someone's mother". It's like their entire identity is hinged around their gear, and their DAW being declared flawless is more important to them than working easily in it, even if afterwards they admit doing the mixing in other DAWs, because of its limitations, etc. That's a sign of emotional issues, more than objective assessment, as far as I can gather. I see you've carried this style of speaking here, too.  And I'm glad to see you stopped here not to make any useful suggestions, but just enough to "assert yourself". Get a life.

Edited by Olaf
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