Midi latency

[Stephen Simmons]

Okay. I have a reasonably new interface a universal audio Apollo twin USB. Really low latency audio tracking even with plugins on the insert. Had a substantial lag but I clicked on whatever you call that little sound button and it was fine.

Problem is either way I click that button on a midi track I get that same lag, seems like almost 500 milliseconds or so. There must be something obvious I have set incorrectly.

In my midi test I have an audio track Cakewalk strings Dimension Pro  and the Amber piano module

Anyone have an idea? Thank you.

WSS

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Stephen Simmons

[scook]

The delay between pressing a key on a MIDI controller and hearing the audio from the soft synth is due to audio latency. Similar to the latency experienced when input echo is enabled on an audio track (which I believe is the "little sound button").

[dcumpian]

There are two forms of latency that could be affecting you, one you can't do much about, the second, you can, but it has a price.

Midi latency is the time it takes for the midi signal to go from your keyboard, though the midi interface and then be recognized by your DAW. Audio latency is the time that it takes for the DAW to trigger the sound you want from the midi signal that was received, and then actually hear it.

Midi latency can only be changed by using better midi interfaces. They are not all created equal and, in many cases, a stand-alone midi interface will have better response times than one built-in to an audio interface.  However, this latency is generally pretty small and may not be worth the cost of additional hardware. It reallydepends on whether the built-in midi interface works well enough to put your midi notes where you play them on the piano roll.

Audio latency you can do a lot about:

• Try lowering your audio buffers. If the audio starts to break up or you get dropouts, you've lowered them too far or your PC needs more optimizations.
• Record @ 24/96.  This will greatly reduce latency, but the cost will be much larger audio files when recording. If storage space is not an issue, and your disk(s) are fast enough to support it, try this.

Dan

[scook]

Keep in mind, plug-in delay compensation may be a factor too. If the project has FX plug-ins in it, see if clicking the FX button in the Mix module makes a difference. May also want to read up on the PDC button in the Mix module too.

[dcumpian]

23 hours ago, scook said:

Keep in mind, plug-in delay compensation may be a factor too. If the project has FX plug-ins in it, see if clicking the FX button in the Mix module makes a difference. May also want to read up on the PDC button in the Mix module too.

Absolutely. I generally don't track with plugins so totally forgot this could also be a possibility.

Dan

[Stephen Simmons]

25 minutes ago, dcumpian said:

Absolutely. I generally don't track with plugins so totally forgot this could also be a possibility.

Dan

 I'm not tracking with plug-ins. The audio goes right through the universal audio Apollo twin but not the MIDI.

WSS

[David Baay]

On 10/8/2019 at 4:40 AM, Stephen Simmons said:

In my midi test I have an audio track Cakewalk strings Dimension Pro  and the Amber piano module

Are you saying the VSTis are inserted in the FX bin of the track? If so, try removing them, and inserting by dragging from the browser to the tracks pane or by Insert > Soft Synth, which will put each of them in the Synth Rack separately with audio output going to independent synth audio tracks via their Inputs rather than via the FX bin.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by David Baay

[Stephen Simmons]

7 hours ago, David Baay said:

Are you saying the VSTis are inserted in the FX bin of the track? If so, try removing them, and inserting by dragging from the browser to the tracks pane or by Insert > Soft Synth, which will put each of them in the Synth Rack separately with audio output going to independent synth audio tracks via their Inputs rather than via the FX bin.

 

 

I created some midi tracks and dragged the soft synth right into it. I'm going down now and trying to insert them as fx soft serve.

Thank you

WSS

[Stephen Simmons]

Actually right now the weirdest thing is in preferences when I click input on midi devices I get that low memory warning and it won't load the device.

I've also unchecked the power management boxes for the USB 3 root devices.

WSS

[Stephen Simmons]

On 10/8/2019 at 8:14 AM, scook said:

The delay between pressing a key on a MIDI controller and hearing the audio from the soft synth is due to audio latency. Similar to the latency experienced when input echo is enabled on an audio track (which I believe is the "little sound button").

And the universal audio Apollo twin has the buffers set really really low so they shouldn't be any latency whatsoever. Or at least not very much. And it's ASIO.

WSS

[David Baay]

So you haven't had any luck moving synths to the synth rack?

To confirm where the latency is, all you need to do is insert the synth using separate MIDI and Audio output tracks (or show the MIDI tab of a Simple Instrument track in the Inspector), and watch the meters when you play.  MIDI track meters are always metering the ouput even when the track is armed to record. So if there's actual MIDI latency, you should see a a delay between hitting the key and seeing the MIDI meter react at essentially the same time as the audio meter. But, as Steve said, its far more likely that you'll see both the MIDI and audio meters register immediately, and the delay in hearing the sound is audio latency. Also possible, but highly unlikely, is that there's actually a delay in the synth's reponse, which would be indicated by a delay between the MIDI and Audio meter reponse.

And, finally, it's also possible that your MIDI controller keyboard or port drive has a problem. Watching the MIDI IN indicator of the MIDI Activity monitor that Cakewalk places in the Windows System Tray by default will help with that.

Edited October 10, 2019 by David Baay

[Stephen Simmons]

3 hours ago, David Baay said:

So you haven't had any luck moving synths to the synth rack?

To confirm where the latency is, all you need to do is insert the synth using separate MIDI and Audio output tracks (or show the MIDI tab of a Simple Instrument track in the Inspector), and watch the meters when you play.  MIDI track meters are always metering the ouput even when the track is armed to record. So if there's actual MIDI latency, you should see a a delay between hitting the key and seeing the MIDI meter react at essentially the same time as the audio meter. But, as Steve said, its far more likely that you'll see both the MIDI and audio meters register immediately, and the delay in hearing the sound is audio latency. Also possible, but highly unlikely, is that there's actually a delay in the synth's reponse, which would be indicated by a delay between the MIDI and Audio meter reponse.

And, finally, it's also possible that your MIDI controller keyboard or port drive has a problem. Watching the MIDI IN indicator of the MIDI Activity monitor that Cakewalk places in the Windows System Tray by default will help with that.

Hi there. Thank you and that's the project for today. As I mentioned in the "no sound from my midi device" I called Sweetwater who sold me the Apollo and the keystation 88 and their guy walk me through a bunch of things to get the sounds on  and the keystation to show up without giving me the memory error message. As it turned out, hopefully, the problem was the drivers even though device manager said the drivers were up-to-date 2019 the Sweetwater Tech said let's try the drivers from the M-Audio site because the ones in there are just generic Windows drivers. They appear to work so far. However the lag is still probably 500 milliseconds. We went through the audio settings for the Apollo twin with no luck, it's supposed to be set perfectly for no latency, or very little.

Then we opened up a program which I've never tried call sfx that came with band in the Box a bunch of years ago and it's a soft synth of some kind. It responds immediately. One of the tests he did when I press the key it responded immediately on the screen but not in Cakewalk. 

 

When I get home I will try and stalling soft sense other than just dragging them into the track which is what I have done so far. I think that's what you mean correct? 

I'm wondering if there are different settings for input different than settings for mixing?

And thank you!

WSS

[David Baay]

Yes, either drag the soft synth to an empty area of the Track pane below existing tracks or insert by Insert > Soft Synth.

I believe that inserting synths in FX bins of audio tracks is still supported for compatibility with legacy projects from ancient versions of SONAR that used that method exclusively, but it's not the prefered method now, and can contribute to issues like this.

EDIT:  If nothing else, using the conventional MIDI Track > Synth Rack > Audio Track routing will make troubleshooting easier if there's still a problem.

Edited October 10, 2019 by David Baay

[Stephen Simmons]

8 hours ago, David Baay said:

Yes, either drag the soft synth to an empty area of the Track pane below existing tracks or insert by Insert > Soft Synth.

I believe that inserting synths in FX bins of audio tracks is still supported for compatibility with legacy projects from ancient versions of SONAR that used that method exclusively, but it's not the prefered method now, and can contribute to issues like this.

EDIT:  If nothing else, using the conventional MIDI Track > Synth Rack > Audio Track routing will make troubleshooting easier if there's still a problem.

Well I dragged them into a midi track, but dropping them below the tracks altogether did the trick.

Now in my midi track I have keystation 88 as an input and whatever the soft synth is at the output, correct?

Thanks to everyone!

WSS

Edited October 11, 2019 by Stephen Simmons

[David Baay]

 

7 hours ago, Stephen Simmons said:

Now in my midi track I have keystation 88 as an input and whatever the soft synth is at the output, correct?

Yes. You might also want to check out the documentation on other soft synth insert methods and options:

https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=SoftSynths.04.html