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Real question and some venting about Track Editing Tools


David Terry

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Before I got Sonar by Bandlab, the latest version I worked with was Sonar 8.5... so I don't know if this is a Bandlab change or something from the X series, but I really hate the cursor editing tool compared to how it worked for years and years and years.  In the past, I never had had to switch to different tools while editing clips.  Depending on where I you hovered over the clip would determine what state the tool was in.  This has all gone to rot.  It has some of the functionality, but several aspects have been moved to different states of the tool that I have to manually switch to all the damn time, and it's very annoying.  Cakewalk's editing is one of the primary reasons I have evangelized about the software for years.  Am I missing something?  Why must I do additional steps to accomplish what used to take me one step in Cakewalk?

I know the old system wasn't perfect, but sure was a hell of a lot better than most other programs for this exact reason.  The box in the photo would be useless with the old manner of functionality.  It might be nice to have for times when you want keep yourself from accidentally hitting the wrong thing, but there is another work around... GET GOOD!  I have been using this software since 1997.  I don't mind if you add tools for the babies, but don't take tools away... that makes no sense.

If I am missing something, I would be thrilled to be corrected.  I just finished working on my first Cakewalk project in nearly 5 years (after having been stuck in Pro Tools for many years now, whose editing tools I also strongly dislike compared to old Sonar functionality) and I am about to pull my damn hair out.

Dumbass Editing Tool.jpg

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This changed during the X-series rollouts. There was some forum noise about the changes at the time...

>> Depending on where I you hovered over the clip would determine what state the tool was in.

The bottom line, for me, is that if I use the "Smart" Tool, this is pretty much the case. Is it exactly the same as in 8.5? No, and to be honest, I don't recall how differently it used to work.

Is there a specific function you're missing? Be comprehensive in your description and we'll see if we can describe how it works now in the latest release.

 

 

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I remember the transition from SONAR 8.5 to SONAR X1 was a difficult one for me. So much had changed, it almost destroyed my workflow. The only saving grace was the fact that most of the keyboard shortcuts remained unchanged, so I could at least work with them.

About 6 months ago I watched the Groove 3 course on SONAR Platinum, and it went through everything in detail. Even though I've been a Cakewalk user since CW Pro Audio 7, I was amazed at the amount of features I had no idea about, and in particular the smart tool.

The VAST majority of things can be done with the smart tool, once you know the right area of the clip to hover on and the various SHIFT / CTRL / ALT combinations. It more or less covers everything the other tools need. It may feel awkward at first, but believe me, once you're used to it you wouldn't want to be without it!

You can find out all about the clip zones / keyboard combinations here:

https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=Tools.04.html

Also, as you hover over the various areas, not only does the cursor will change, the topic in the help module will also automatically change - so you can see exactly what the tool will do.

Seeing as you're coming from 8.5, you might want to consider disabling comping on the smart tool until you get used to its behaviour. I quite often do this anyhow if I'm not comping, just so it doesn't get in the way.

 

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2 hours ago, David Terry said:

I just finished working on my first Cakewalk project in nearly 5 years

Kind of harsh to damn the tools when you haven't given them a fair shot ? no ?

I remember going from Sonar 8.5 to Sonar X1 and it was tough. For the most part I kept working in 8.5 till I became familiar with the X series. So I know exactly where your coming from. But I did give it a fair shot and im glad I did. This tool behavior has been the same (for the most part) for 9 years now. You have some catching up to do before you can honestly say you don't like it.

You tube is your best friend.

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Check the user manual for the smart tool hotspots, and the keyboard shortcuts for switching tools, zooms, navigation. The hotspots can be trickier if zoomed out too far, and some things are different (anything new or updated often contains workflow changes you have to deal with unfortunately).

Based on the OP, it seems the zoom and hotspot areas may be an underlying frustration, so the other shortcuts to get where you can readily hit those and know what they do (and swap tools when necessary) is important. Rote memorisation unfortunately, but I would recommend starting there.

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Simply put, they dumded down the Smart tool by removing some of its previous functionality.  According to responses, apparently this is old news.  I took a break from Cakewalk for a few years, but recently  I have put in over 120 hours on this new project, I have given it a fair shot and will continue to use it, but no one so far has contradicted my assessment about the current nature of the Smart Tool and its current limitations compared to the previous state pre-Sonar X.  I guess my hope was that someone would tell me they did not remove functionality and maybe I could just change something in setup.  I understand the current functionality, and I'm just not as into it, and a little disappointed.  I came here after nearly exhausting googling, manual reading, and hours of youtube videos... to no avail. But you guys did give me closure in confirming my fears.  So thanks for that!  #firstworldproblems 😃

 

Edited by David Terry
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4 hours ago, David Terry said:

Simply put, they dumded down the Smart tool by removing some of its previous functionality.  According to responses, apparently this is old news.  I took a break from Cakewalk for a few years, but recently  I have put in over 120 hours on this new project, I have given it a fair shot and will continue to use it, but no one so far has contradicted my assessment about the current nature of the Smart Tool and its current limitations compared to the previous state pre-Sonar X.  I guess my hope was that someone would tell me they did not remove functionality and maybe I could just change something in setup.  I understand the current functionality, and I'm just not as into it, and a little disappointed.  I came here after nearly exhausting googling, manual reading, and hours of youtube videos... to no avail. But you guys did give me closure in confirming my fears.  So thanks for that!  #firstworldproblems 😃

 

Specifically, what functionality that is missing are you referring to? It may be that its just moved or requires different modifier behaviour.

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If you

4 hours ago, David Terry said:

but recently  I have put in over 120 hours on this new project, I have given it a fair shot and will continue to use it, but no one so far has contradicted my assessment about the current nature of the Smart Tool and its current limitations compared to the previous state pre-Sonar X. 

Ok, then I'll flat out tell ya. The new Smart tool is better and much more efficient than the old 8.5 stuff. You can fight with it for 120hrs, or with an open mind learn to use it properly. 

Your move.

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1 hour ago, Grem said:

The new Smart tool is better and much more efficient than the old 8.5 stuff. You can fight with it for 120hrs, or with an open mind learn to use it properly. 

Your move.

There might be a quicker option: use Sonar 8.5.

Yesterday when I saw the original post, I successfully opened Sonar 8.5 (on my Windows  10 PC). It seemed to have no problems playing a test file I created in June (2019) before I discovered Cakewalk by Bandlab. The test file consisted of two audio tracks and two midi/instrument tracks (TTS-1 and Rapture). 

In fact, if Sonar 8.5 still works on your computer, maybe you could have both options--with the workflow time saved doing projects in Sonar 8.5, use a portion of the time saved to explore features in the new Cakewalk at your leisure.  If over time the new version doesn't click for you, you still have 8.5 (assuming it works on your PC as it seems to work on mine).

Steve 

Edited by MusicMan11712 (aka Dr. Steve)
to add that I just learned of CW by BL in June; to fix typo
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While the UI massively changed from 8.5.3 through the Sonar X* versions, and now Cakewalk by Bandlab, there have been countless fixes and improvements since then, and as others have noted above, whatever functionality has been moved or altered, once you adapt, you will learn to fly through things anew.

At the very least - I urge you to provide detail on what exactly is frustrating you, and the more clarity the better, so that folks here can guide you through how those tasks are accomplished in Cakewalk by Bandlab.

Your choices are:

1) Continue to use Sonar 8.5.3

2) Use one of the Sonar X-series versions

3) Learn to use Cakewalk by Bandlab's altered ways of doing things, for those activities currently frustrating you

4) Move off to some other DAW

I COMPLETELY understand your frustration - when Sonar X1 came out, there were MASSIVELY negative posts put out about the UI redesign.  It was a similar issue when folks had to switch from Word Perfect in DOS to Word in Windows - in that many/most of the countless keyboard command shortcuts to do things either went away, or were modified to become menu/mouse commands.

What I can tell you, is that there were overwhelming numbers of folks who expressed a common admission to adapting to working in Sonar X1 - that once they quit trying to make/force it to work like 8.5.3, and instead put that effort into adapting to the changes, that life became much easier for them, and it cut WAY down on their frustration levels, as their productivity soared.

There are some amazing new features since 8.5.3, and if you let the forum community help guide you through whatever it is that is currently aggravating you, I think you will come to like working with Cakewalk by Bandlab.

And, as noted in another post above, there is no issue with having 8.5.3 AND Cakewalk by Bandlab, on you computer at the same time - they will live happily alongside each other.  (If I recall, the Plugin Manager from 8.5.3 changed over to be replaced by one of the Sonar X versions of it, and if that is indeed correct, then the Plugin Manager from Cakewalk by Bandlab may similarly replace the 8.5.3 version, but that was not, and should not be, an issue for you).

Bob Bone

Edited by Robert Bone
Added a blurb about running both 8.5.3 and CbB concurrently.
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I immediately got into the Smart Tool when X1 came out. My impression was that you could do common operations much more quickly, once you understood that the functionality was position-sensitive within the clip. For the less-common functions, like time-stretching, I learned the modifier keys.

There were many objections to the X1 workflow at first but I think time has shown that CW made the right decisions. There are always tradeoffs involved, but as long as the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, I'm okay with that. 

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My wish is to be able to have "Select" be the default, and then manually choose which tool I want. As it is I have to choose "select" when I open a project. I like select to be default because I do a lot of work in staff view, and I select groups of notes to cut and paste, change velocity on, transpose etc. But it's not a big deal. But it seems it would be the logical thing to do.

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1 hour ago, Robert Bone said:

that there were overwhelming numbers of folks who expressed a common admission to adapting to working in Sonar X1 - that once they quit trying to make/force it to work like 8.5.3, and instead put that effort into adapting to the changes, that life became much easier for them, and it cut WAY down on their frustration levels, as their productivity soared.

^^^^This 1,000%^^^^

You put that very well Bob.

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fwiw, a lot (all?) of the x1 gui choices were made to enable touch functionality, the latest hardware gimmick at the time... it was a long wait for it to get finished

do bandlab still have the same relationship w/microsoft as cakewalk had?

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