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Showstopper VSTi Issue in Cakewalk by Bandlab


noynekker

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On 10/1/2019 at 2:29 PM, paulo said:

I also once had this problem on a project. All frozen instrument tracks and it played ok when they were frozen (ie the state I had left it in previously) 

Do have an un-modified copy of that frozen project somewhere? That would probably be a good one for the Bakers to look at.

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My "fix" for one of my very important projects was to totally leave alone the glitched frozen VSTi tracks . . . in fact I just used hide / archive tracks for them, and then cut and pasted midi into new VSTi tracks. If I tried to delete the problem tracks, it either cycled the VSTi's to other tracks, or totally crashed Cakewalk.

I have never been able to reproduce or figure out what caused this.

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On 10/1/2019 at 9:35 PM, noynekker said:

Hi Bob . . . my reason for freezing here is that I want to get my latency adjusted back  to under 15 ms, so I can keyboard play a new part in, without losing all my mix and EQ settings for the rest of the mix.

Sure - that is why freezing exists.  I was only explaining why my earlier comment was a guess - as I don't really do any freezing.  You do it because it helps, the trick seems to be to figure out how doing that causes the issues you are having.

Bob Bone

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On 11/24/2019 at 6:57 PM, David Baay said:

Do have an un-modified copy of that frozen project somewhere? That would probably be a good one for the Bakers to look at.

I very much doubt it. IIRC having put it down to file corruption I probably rescued what I could from it, started over and binned the bad file.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi all! I must say I have encountered this horrid VSTi swap bug twice within 2 months! I wish I could recall witch other project acted up like this. The thing is, I could restore some information from a backup to copy paste the midi data in the other project, but it was not ALL up to date on that past project:-(. So last night on 2020, 1, 16 I encountered this again with a different project! All the project backups had this issue with VSTis being swapped! I have a very detailed order of what I did. I did change my MIDI config midway into having this project open! - The cause may have been the cause because I was fiddling with getting my Komplete keyboard to interact better with Cakewalk. IE removing a MIDI controller seems to trigger this VSTi / track swap issue based off of another's reported issue with this! I should mention I used a NEW creativity template I made a few versions back to avoid problems with setup when I made this new project.

Here is the rundown of what I recall doing. I had my project open since I went to work to get back to later. All was well with it as I did not close it yet.

  1. I came back from work I continued to mess around with the project and the only thing I did when I got back was home was I copied a few bars to extend the song.
  2. I noted as played back the project that a track that  had (Kontakt - Symphony Strings) was silent and the  dynamics was ZERO! It's like it was ignoring the current cc value* on the mod wheel! UGH....
  3. A thought came to me midway into some inspiration and I thought, "Hey... I wonder if I can set up my Komplete keyboard as a Daw controller to alleviate the defaulting CC issue???"
  4. With some help from here  on how to set this up  the Komplete S series as a MACKIE using control surfaces, it was a bit difficult as I could not find the Mackie DIALOG... lol...
  5. To get the ball rolling on the controller setup, I proceeded to disable all Komplete MIDI I/O but the Komplete DAW interface...
  6. I closed the project I was working on and reset CbB by closing it as per instructions. Pressed the save button for prosperity before doing so... 
  7. Opening the project again I had found the Mackie dialog by double clicking on the control surface bracket (Green or red edge on console) Nothing worked on the controller yet (IE transport)
  8. I found the ignore handshake option...  I reset the whole gig again and got the DAW control working ! Project seemed to be ok here! MIDI I/O disabled on Komplete still. Keys = no sound 😉 
  9. I was ready to tinker with my project as the VSTi dialog was up for Kontakt Symphony Series Strings and all seemed well. No odd sounds..  UNTIL the next step..... (No MIDI input yet)
  10. I had re added the MIDI control components of the Komplete keyboard in the MIDI devices under settings had saved the project yet again for prosperity. I closed it.
  11.  When I re-opened the project I heard this WEIRD low tone floppy synth sound come from somewhere and it went away!
  12.  When I tried to play the project it sounded all off! I was in a bit of panic by now. I try to investigate.
  13. I had figured maybe the controller & ECHO MIDI caused the parameters to become screwed up IE cutoff, volumes etc! Solved by removing Mackie controller, but that's not all.
  14. I close and re open yet again. I go and edit a particular track's instrument parameters and OMG the instrument is empty on particular tracks! I am like... Where did they go?
  15. Then it hits me.... SON OF A *BLEEP* lol.... I figured out what happened as that darn VSTi bug hit me again! Also it just seemed to DELETE what I had loaded in Kontakt!
  16. Scouring my backups in the project folder were all infected as well as Backblaze backups! No success in restoring order and I need to resort to manual repair.

    I have no clue why it is so difficult to manage what is wired to what in a instrument track. WHY!!!? I am not sure how to correct it other than copy pasting the midi and even saving the patches out to files to re-load them in correct order! I am still kind of noob to this but WILL NOT transfer to another DAW! MIDI CCs and how they get recorded so things are the same way they were inspired is of utmost importance!!! I hate to open a project only to find out it does not sound the same before it was saved and closed for the evening. So odd. So sad and frustrating as I love to experiment!! What is the difference between automation and CC anyway? They are together but separate!? Ugh.... Nothing works out of box so to speak and I keep running in circles. That's why I was desperate to try and integrate my Komplete controller they way I did. Time to ask you all for help on this, but that's for another post! Just had to vent it here as it pertains to the problem. I love to mess with hybrid setups as far as using loop MIDI to make midi cross between many tracks. Why cakewalk does not have this ability is BEYOND me.... One cannot hear the darn track if MIDI is not even echoing on a track using a virtual MIDI adapter as it is!? Too much to keep track of 😞 There is too much a risk of screwing delicate CC setups on VSTis by doing this! Uuuugh... Please tell me this makes some sense!

    Cakewalk is just too user friendly for any creative individual! I wish that where was better foldering too as things can become utterly confusing due to how the hierarchy is displayed. NESTING of folders please??? I don't know if it's just me, but at least I can talk with fellow Cakewalkers on what can be done! CbB seems to be catering to minor irritants and odd bugs of the past! It's in better development now free than it was paid! Where is the TIP JAR!? Heck I had always wondered in the past why one could not dupe a track's properties and instead had to do it thru a template! Well even that addition had a hiccup that was not transferring the MIDI automation segment. FIXED as far as I know, but this VSTi swap thing is a serious deal / project breaker!

    * This is another issue. The storing of MIDI CCs n the track escape my mind on how they work. I would think they send continuous but I find unless a value is touched (I/E a dial is moved that the value is defaulted to zero or a different value rather than stored as it was when recorded! This makes me want to pull my hair out.... I guess after all these years I need a MIDI 101 course lol....

Synth brass & strings - Demo VSTi swap project - 2020-01-17.rar

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  • 3 months later...

Hi, I am a new-old user, started with Cakewalk back in the 90s then moved on to other DAWs and have come back a few weeks ago due to an emergency studio I had to set up while in quarantine, so I am really thankful to Bandlab for this opportunity to keep making music in these sad times: here is a little contribution to hopefully help troubleshooting and fixing this extremely frustrating bug

I have experienced this issue a few times already, and I am not sure about the previous times, but this last time it was definitely following an update in the MIDI Devices: I reconnected my USB keyboard controller and restarted Cakewalk to make Cakewalk "see it" (this is also strange: sometimes Cakewalk sees that something has been connected or disconnected, other times it doesn't). When I opened the project after this, the mapping between the 3 active instances of Xpand!2 and the associated instrument tracks was all mixed up.

I was able to restore 2 of them through the MIDI section of the Inspector, but the third one was frozen with the freeze icon grayed out and there was no way to unfreeze it other than delete it and insert a new one. All of this, including trying to understand which Xpand!2 instance had ended up on which instrument track, looking for solutions online, etc. took me more than one hour for just 3 tracks, so I can see why other users are so frustrated as well.

Coming from other DAWs, I have to add that this wouldn't be such a bad issue (apart from the misteriously frozen and non-unfreezable track) if there was a more user-friendly way to check and change the mapping between instrument tracks and "synths" (by the way, why "synths" and not "VSTi"? most of my VSTi are not synths but samplers...)

My regular workflow (and not just mine, of course) is to create (or have in my template) an instrument track for a certain instrument, e.g. piano, and then experiment with different VSTis until I find the sound I have in my mind, and this simple task is made terribly cumbersome by the way the functionality has been implemented: as far as I understood reading the manual and online resources, I am forced to pick an instrument when I create an instrument track (which shouldn't really be the case, especially working with project templates), and once it is created, the only way I can see which VSTi (including instance in case of multiple instances) is associated to the track is to open the inspector and navigate to the MIDI section: why can't I just have a field in the main track view showing that information and allowing me to change it? This is the case for pure MIDI tracks where I have this in the Output field, but since instrument tracks output refer (correctly) to the audio output of the track, on those tracks this information is lost, which is where it would be most essential to have it (who works with pure MIDI tracks anymore? yes, I can see who, but that's definitely not the majority of users)

Similarly, why on earth when I delete a "synth" from the rack view and uncheck the "delete associated tracks" option, does Cakewalk automatically split my instrument track into a MIDI track and separate audio track? If I originally created an instrument track it's because I'd rather use that than a MIDI-audio pair, so why that forced change? This forces me to create a new instrument track, copy-paste the MIDI data and delete the two unwanted tracks while I could have simply used the existing instrument track and associate a different VSTi to it.

For future evolutions, I strongly recommend to check how the instrument track functionality is implemented in the most popular DAWs: this does not mean they are perfect, but I certainly find them more user friendly in this respect

Thanks!!

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We've just fixed an issue for VSTi's getting re-assigned when hardware MIDI devices are changed during a session and you had multiple instances of the same VSTi within a project.

Theoretically this issue could also occur if you deleted a VSTi synth that you added before you added other synths, and you still had multiple instances of another VSTi  in your project.

I'm pretty sure this will cure the issues described in this thread.

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On 10/1/2019 at 10:29 PM, paulo said:

I also once had this problem on a project. All frozen instrument tracks and it played ok when they were frozen (ie the state I had left it in previously) but  unfreeze one and the midi output had changed to a different (and still frozen) synth, so nothing played and I couldn't freeze it again because the synth it should have been assigned to was still frozen. Tried another and same result. Tried unfreezing all the synths so that I could reassign outputs and it was a total mess. Split all the instrument tracks to reveal the midi tracks and nothing was assigned to where it should be, some midi tracks were assigned to the same incorrect synth. One synth even when re-assigned refused to make a sound even though all the routing was corrected and one synth remained frozen in the synth rack view,but  the audio still showed in track view and the *  icon in TV appeared as not frozen. I spent hours trying to put it straight and never quite managed it because I couldn't re-create the synth that was showing as frozen but wouldn't unfreeze (omnisphere IIRC) as I had no idea what patch was selected. It was only a half baked thing anyway, so I put it down to a corrupt file and gave up in the end.

DELETED: I repeat myself! I already said this in the thread some time ago!

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5 hours ago, David Baay said:

Nope, sorry, that doesn't do what I need, because:

1) I am still forced to associate a "synth" to an instrument track when creating it, and that doesn't make sense when I don't know yet which VSTi I will use, especially when building a template

2) Replace Synth will enable me to only select a new VSTi while I would want the possibility to use a new channel in a VSTi already existing in the Synth Rack

Number 2 is especially frustrating when trying to remedy the damages of the bug above, because there's no way I can fix the routings of existing tracks to existing VSTis via the Replace Synth feature

 

 

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4 hours ago, msmcleod said:

We've just fixed an issue for VSTi's getting re-assigned when hardware MIDI devices are changed during a session and you had multiple instances of the same VSTi within a project.

Theoretically this issue could also occur if you deleted a VSTi synth that you added before you added other synths, and you still had multiple instances of another VSTi  in your project.

I'm pretty sure this will cure the issues described in this thread.

Sounds cool! When will the fix be available? 

Please also consider my other suggestions for future versions

Thanks!

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2 hours ago, MicheleS76 said:

Nope, sorry, that doesn't do what I need

I was addressing this:

"This forces me to create a new instrument track, copy-paste the MIDI data and delete the two unwanted tracks while I could have simply used the existing instrument track and associate a different VSTi to it."

Replace synth does exactly that . You didn't mention anything about changing synth channels at the same time in our orginal post, but you can do that via the Inspector after you've replaced the synth. 

Bottom line: it works the way it works.  An instument track is by definition a combination of a MIDI track and an Audio track connected by an associated instrument plugin. Changing that to allow an empty instrument track will require re-defining what an Instrument track is as an object or maybe introducing a dummy , internal 'placeholder' instrument that Cakewalk uses to fill the void under the covers. Or you could just to that yourself by using some lightweight 'placeholder' instrument in your templates.

Beyond that, any changes you want to see in the way it's implemented will need to be entered as feature requests in the Feedback forum. 

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15 hours ago, David Baay said:

I was addressing this:

"This forces me to create a new instrument track, copy-paste the MIDI data and delete the two unwanted tracks while I could have simply used the existing instrument track and associate a different VSTi to it."

Replace synth does exactly that . You didn't mention anything about changing synth channels at the same time in our orginal post, but you can do that via the Inspector after you've replaced the synth. 

I see, however, as I mentioned before, Replace Synth only allows to insert a new VSTi in the rack, not associate the track with an existing one, so there is still a degree of flexibility that's not covered, and a big one if you ask me

15 hours ago, David Baay said:

Bottom line: it works the way it works.  An instument track is by definition a combination of a MIDI track and an Audio track connected by an associated instrument plugin. Changing that to allow an empty instrument track will require re-defining what an Instrument track is as an object or maybe introducing a dummy , internal 'placeholder' instrument that Cakewalk uses to fill the void under the covers. Or you could just to that yourself by using some lightweight 'placeholder' instrument in your templates.

Beyond that, any changes you want to see in the way it's implemented will need to be entered as feature requests in the Feedback forum. 

Sure, and that is exactly what I am trying to addres: it shouldn't

When you create an audio track, you don't have to specify upfront whether the track will contain a guitar or a vocal line; when you create a MIDI track, you don't have to specify upfront whether the MIDI data therein will be triggering a VSTi and which one, an external hardware module, or whatever; so why would you have to with an instrument track? That doesn't make sense to me, and apparently it doesn't for developers and users of other DAWs where this doesn't happen, so it's clearly not just me

Anyway, I was only trying to bring a different perspective as a suggestion to make the platform more user-friendly and more on par with the competition, it was a constructive type of feedback I thought of sharing in the best interest of BandLab and their users, but I am not going so far as to enter a feature request about it because I'm only a temporary user and I will go back to my other DAW once the emergency is over: if other users are fine with how this works in Cakewalk, I'm happy for them :)

 

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On 10/1/2019 at 9:35 PM, noynekker said:

Hi Bob . . . my reason for freezing here is that I want to get my latency adjusted back  to under 15 ms, so I can keyboard play a new part in, without losing all my mix and EQ settings for the rest of the mix.

Perhaps you could just lower your ASIO Buffer Size, try 128 samples, then bypass the effects, (hit FX button), record your new track/part, then engage the effects again (hit FX button again), and adjust your ASIO Buffer Size back high for mixing.

Bob Bone

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10 hours ago, MicheleS76 said:

I see, however, as I mentioned before, Replace Synth only allows to insert a new VSTi in the rack, not associate the track with an existing one, so there is still a degree of flexibility that's not covered, and a big one if you ask me

Is that track a plain MIDI track or an existing instrument?   If it's the latter you can use Replace Synth from the Track View - just right-click over the instrument track strip to open the pop-up menu.  Any existing MIDI clips on the track will now be associated with the new instrument.    If it is a plain MIDI track you should be able to change its Output to any existing Instrument track.  

 

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12 hours ago, MicheleS76 said:

When you create an audio track, you don't have to specify upfront whether the track will contain a guitar or a vocal line; when you create a MIDI track, you don't have to specify upfront whether the MIDI data therein will be triggering a VSTi and which one, an external hardware module, or whatever; so why would you have to with an instrument track? That doesn't make sense to me, and apparently it doesn't for developers and users of other DAWs where this doesn't happen, so it's clearly not just me

The content of a track and what it has assigned for inputs and outputs are two different things.  Individual MIDI and Audio tracks can exist without I/O assignments. An Instrument track  is defined by it's MIDI output and audio input assignment.  Instrument tracks were a late addition Cakewalk, and that dictated how they were implemented.

12 hours ago, MicheleS76 said:

Anyway, I was only trying to bring a different perspective as a suggestion to make the platform more user-friendly and more on par with the competition, it was a constructive type of feedback I thought of sharing in the best interest of BandLab and their users...

That's fine; this just isn't the right forum for that.  There's a dedicated Feedback forum for making suggestions, and letting other users weigh in on them:

https://discuss.cakewalk.com/index.php?/forum/8-feedback-loop/ 

This forum is primarily about answering questions, solving problems, and helping users get things done based on existing functionality.

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12 hours ago, Robert Bone said:

Perhaps you could just lower your ASIO Buffer Size, try 128 samples, then bypass the effects, (hit FX button), record your new track/part, then engage the effects again (hit FX button again), and adjust your ASIO Buffer Size back high for mixing.

Bob Bone

Yes Bob . . . It's a great suggestion, I sometimes forget you can do that to get your latency back to a playable level, with a complex mix already in place. Mostly, it's the look ahead plugins that cause problems at lower ASIO buffer settings, causing cracking sounds . . . but yeah, turn off all the "stuff" and you can record live parts in again, just have to live with the rawness of the mix for a bit . . . and not forget to turn the "stuff" back on :)

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2 minutes ago, noynekker said:

Yes Bob . . . It's a great suggestion, I sometimes forget you can do that to get your latency back to a playable level, with a complex mix already in place. Mostly, it's the look ahead plugins that cause problems at lower ASIO buffer settings, causing cracking sounds . . . but yeah, turn off all the "stuff" and you can record live parts in again, just have to live with the rawness of the mix for a bit . . . and not forget to turn the "stuff" back on :)

You good now?  

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7 minutes ago, Robert Bone said:

You good now?  

Well, the original reason for this thread was a few of my projects got messed up by this VSTi switch out  issue . . . seems like Cakewalk has found a fix for it recently, and I really only had it happen a small number of times, hard to find the reproducible steps, and a few others here concurred . . . so, it's great Cakewalk has addressed it , so I don't expect see that bug's ugly face ever again hopefully !

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