Phase & Latency for Overhead / Snare / Kit recording

[Edward Allen]

Hi there

I'd heard that it was worth checking if your OHs were not only in phase with each other BUT also "in phase" with the rest of the kit (from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNC5CZMawRc&list=PLleS-Mfyj_ffMRXOrhlyXh8Q3Cw6oLLjI&index=2 ) so I was looking into this (although not fully understanding if its actually "an issue" or not!) and I noticed the following:

 

 

The snare top and bottom (Green) are out of phase visually here (But I have switched the bottom snare mic polarity to resolve that) and the 2 OHS (Yellow) are in phase with each other, so far so good.

BUT

When you look at the delay between the snare mics and the OHs its @ 5ms.  The mics are equally spaced above the snare. 

So in a case  like this is it an issue that the OHs are not "in sync" / "in phase" with the snare mics? 

And if so what are the best remedies ( given that the OHs will always be some distance further away from the snare as the snare mics are)

 

Many thanks in advance. 

[msmcleod]

You've got 4 options really:

1. Do nothing
2. Flip the phase of the overheads and see if it sounds better.
3. Move the O/H clips so they better align with the other tracks (you can combine this with (2) to limit the amount you need to move the clip by)
4. Use a phase alignment plugin, e.g. MAutoAlign or MFreeformPhase from MeldaProduction

However the issue with trying to correct the phase by any of the methods, is that although you might get say the snare to align, other drums may then be out of phase.  This is pretty much unavoidable, but the quieter a drum is in your overheads, the less of a problem it'll be for that drum.

Another option: if you've got samples of the original drums in isolation, you could "reinforce" the sounds of any problem parts that have phase issues.  It's a bit of a fiddly job, although drum replacement plugins on a copy of the track might help.

Really, the best solution is to adjust your overhead mic placement so you don't get the issue in the first place.

[Starship Krupa]

On 10/4/2023 at 10:12 AM, Edward Allen said:

I'd heard that it was worth checking if your OHs were not only in phase with each other BUT also "in phase" with the rest of the kit

As already reinforced by other (sometimes terse) comments, it is worth checking, but it may or may not improve the sound. You can use Cakewalk's nudge feature to get them all lined up, then listen to how it sounds. If it's better, yay. If it's not, fine.

The tricks and so forth that are on YouTube are great things to try and see if they work for you. Initial compressor settings, etc. Unfortunately, too many YouTubers have click-baity headlines and attitudes that say something like "Do THIS simple trick to improve your drum overheads!" It gets more attention than "This may help your overheads sound better."

If they make your tracks sound better or not, your ears will tell you. The phase police won't pull your track over for violations if it sounds better a little out of phase. After all, in live situations, the sounds from the various pieces of the kit arrive at our ears at slightly different times.

To help train your ears, phase problems tend to sound whooshy or thin out the sound. Listen for that. Paradoxically, sometimes a little bit of phase shift can improve the sound.

I have long preferred MAutoAlign for multi-mic'd instruments like acoustic guitar and drums. Sometimes it sounds better without it, but usually it opens up the stereo field in a pleasing way.

As far as drums go, if you're getting so much bleed that your hi-hat is getting into the snare track or the snare is getting into the kick track, you need to first adjust your mic positions. Assuming you're using cardioids on the kick and snare, you can tweak their positioning.

Keep in mind that the drum sounds that we have absorbed as "classic" were recorded at a time when the engineers couldn't adjust phase by any means other than moving mics and listening. When it sounded good, print it.

Since there will always be some bleed, getting cozy with a good noise gate is a good idea. You can still get Unfiltered Audio's G8 CM for free with any issue of Computer Music, which you can pick up for $5 online. It's an excellent gate. A great drum-specific one is Boz Digital's Gatey Watey.

Once you minimize or eliminate the bleed, phase issues become less important.

[HOOK]

There are 2 camps.

One camp time-aligns it.  You can choose to chop the OH mic tracks and time-align it.  But where do you stop?  The toms will also be in the OH.  And so will the HH.

One camp ignores it.  I'm in this camp.

EDIT:  To clarify.  I'm specifically talking about time-aligning OH and ROOM tracks.  I don't.

Edited October 4, 2023 by HOOK

[JnTuneTech]

2 hours ago, HOOK said:

There are 2 camps.

One camp time-aligns it.  You can choose to chop the OH mic tracks and time-align it.  But where do you stop?  The toms will also be in the OH.  And so will the HH.

One camp ignores it.

I would be camp-less I guess!  In my mixes, I will find what sounds best. If time shifting OH for phase issues sounds better, I may use it. If it sounds fine as is, I just use it. -But it definitely can be a subject one can over-think, so be careful!

[Byron Dickens]

Listen with your ears instead of your eyes.

[John Vere]

3 hours ago, Byron Dickens said:

Listen with your ears instead of your eyes.

More than sage advice. I just recorded a live band a couple of weeks ago and not only the 14 tracks into Cakewalk but I had also set up a couple of video cameras.  One Camera was right behind the drums about 8’ away. My overheads were the typical 3’ above the kit. 
Turns out the drummer rented the kit because his drum kit was worth a lot and he didn’t feel comfortable taking it out on the road. The cymbals were garbage.
 

Anyhow my overheads only revealed this fact 100% and I had to almost kill them in the mix.  but this one cameras audio track which of course was muted apparently seemed to have done a better job and was not as harsh. 
I grabbed the audio track from my video editor and plunked it into the multi track project. Yes it was totally late to the game.

And yes I used my ears not my eyes to get it aligned with the other tracks. That track made the whole mix come alive because it added that room sound which was missing because I closed miked everything. 

So what Byron just said is very true in my little world. Ears not eyes. Your eyes will get it in the ballpark but your ears will make it musical.