Introducing Cakewalk Next and our new brand identity

[Magic Russ]

I think at this point any reasonable person has discerned that outside of an official announcement, anything more said on pricing and licensing will be nothing more than FUD, venting,  ranting, or possibly virtue signalling.

With that out of the way, let's talk about the direction these products are going in.  "Less work, more flow" is an awesome slogan, but what's in the pipeline to actually achieve that?

What is Next?  Is it just a port of BandLab software or something more?  Is it going to be competing with FL, Ableton, and Bitwig?

What else is in store for Sonar?  The change to vector graphics might not be enough to open everyone's wallet.

What about the instruments?  What gets included, outdated, updated?

[Kyle.M]

8 minutes ago, Teksonik said:

Well you make that sound like it's going to be a subscription model and if so then I'm out. Nothing personal but I simply will not subscribe to any software. Anyone who thinks it through long term will come to the same conclusion.

Sell me a license for a one time expense, then sell upgrades from there. Sell expansions if you wish. Bug fixes should be free. Yearly update plans just put pressure on developers to produce something so people think they're getting value for their update plan money. That's why I jumped off the Sonar train after X3 when all the business schemes started happening and well...we saw how that worked out for Cakewalk.  

But again "we haven't baked the final details". Then keep all of it secret until you do bake those final details. Just tell us the cost up front and we'll make our decisions based on that. Generating hype isn't going to help. 

All you're doing is fueling 

Wow! Sad individual. 

[Teksonik]

4 minutes ago, Kyle.M said:

Wow! Sad individual. 

Yes you are! It's just a DAW. I'm not talking smack about your Mother.😆

Calm down, I'm just giving my opinion on the matter. If that triggers you then it's out of my control.

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

17 minutes ago, Magic Russ said:

I think at this point any reasonable person has discerned that outside of an official announcement, anything more said on pricing and licensing will be nothing more than FUD, venting,  ranting, or possibly virtue signalling.

Considering some of the words said by people like Noel are not official statements despite them working for Bandlab, let's call everyone who did that unreasonable because they can't keep their mouths shut. Sounds fair.

But since we can always add yet another gallon to said fire, who knows if the statement was half delivered on purpose so this partially dead forum would have some traffic?

Edited June 7, 2023 by Bruno de Souza Lino
Conspiracy added for comedic effect.

[bitman]

I don't subscribe to any software nor will I subscribe.

 

[Terry Kelley]

Is it too early to start suggesting new Sonar features? Just asking for a friend.

[Craig Anderton]

FWIW, some people prefer subscriptions. This isn't only about people who don't have enough cash upfront. For example, if you're collaborating on mixes with someone who uses Steven Slate's plugins but you don't have them installed on your machine, you can subscribe for a month or two, finish the mixes, and move on. Similarly, if you use Pro Tools Artist but need to do something more advanced for a particular project, you can subscribe to Pro Tools Studio for a month for $30. 

I'm not saying subscriptions are better, just that they work for some people even though they don't work for others. I think the most successful option for companies by far is offering both - subscriptions that include periodic minor updates or goodies, but these don't become available to owners of the "perpetual" version until they do the next major update.

For me, the HUGE problem with subscriptions is if your work is held hostage when you stop paying. That's why I thought the old Sonar rent-to-buy approach of "if your subscription stops, keep using the program...you just don't get any updates" made a lot of sense. It was also quite generous compared to other companies of that era (I'm looking at you, Adobe).

But putting all the pricing issues aside, the fact that Cakewalk continues moving forward and progressing is ultimately what matters. And it's much better news than "Thanks for your support over the years, we just sold Cakewalk to Wal-Mart, have a nice day"

[kc23]

"if your subscription stops, keep using the program... you just don't get any updates" it´s not "rent to buy". That is a subscription, plain and simple.

So, they want me to pay for a program, and when bugs are found, they expect me to pay them again for me to get those fixes? Pay them to get the fixed version of the thing I already payed and that was faulty to begin with? pffff...

I would say that definitely qualifies as holding your work hostage.

 

And I also would say, that in daw-world, the best business model in my opinion goes to Reaper: "Pay your license, whichever of the two tiers corresponds to you, and we´ll give you every update we roll out until the next mayor iteration comes to an end." And those updates come with fixes and new features. And, the program is the same for everyone.

Either that, or lifetime updates. But... yeah.

[Misha]

"Thanks for your support over the years, we just sold Cakewalk to Wal-Mart, have a nice day" 

LOL.

That is actually another concern. It was mentioned several times after Gibson thing (even in this thread), that there was a plan "B" to permanently unlock existing licenses.

That brings me to a question. Actually two.

1) Can a similar promise be made on the new paid (non-subscription) licenses if unfortunate (or fortunate) event similar to Gibson happens?

2)Why there is a 6 month de-activation happening in the first place?  I do get that "free" is "free" while it's free, but a paid perpetual license, in my view should never de-activate on a  chosen machine, while that machine is intact.  

 I own a decent set of musical software. Only one, a very minor app deactivated and asked to be re-activated after a period of time. That one and Cakewalk. What bothers Bakers, not allowing to permanently activate license on particular machine (Machine ID) , like 90%+  of others do?

 

[Lord Tim]

Alternatively, you could buy a version of an app, get 2 or 3 updates during the course of its lifespan, then you have to buy an upgrade to the new version, with no fixes going to the previous version. Many companies do this. If anything, having ongoing support while you're paying for a subscription (or whatever it would be called) is actually more flexible than that. Your app doesn't stop working when you stop paying, unlike other companies like to do, and you get ongoing updates spanning different revisions rather than being locked into a single version update cycle.

[Lord Tim]

The "check activation" thing has been talked about a lot and the short answer is:

1. Small team, finite resources to support the product, so the more people on a current product, the less wild goose chases for old bugs that may already have been fixed in the current version

And 2. Bandlab is a business, they want to know how many active users they have. They invested in the Cakewalk IP for a reason, and I doubt it would have been cheap. I know I'd want to know some metrics on my userbase if I just dropped a wad of cash on a product.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Lord Tim

[jackson white]

On 6/6/2023 at 7:41 AM, Lord Tim said:

I have a lot of ... Mac users

.,. same in my network. if the changes/strategy/investment leads to basic cross platform support, that would address the one major missing feature with Sonar. (currently exploring candidates for a common project platform to improve productivity across a diverse group of musicians/projects)

...

np with calling it Sonar here, but if they gonna rebrand. might have considered a new name given the history/baggage and overall tendency for far too many to repeat nonsense as if it were fact on public forums. 😲

and assuming there's no issue with NeXT. 🙂

...

1 hour ago, Craig Anderton said:

For me, the HUGE problem with subscriptions is if your work is held hostage when you stop paying.

^^ showstopper

otherwise, i only look at what you get for what you pay but believe it's a better investment to own a good tool that you're going to use very day than rent. imo, too many subscriptions tend to spawn feature bloats to justify subscription costs and end up compromising the usefulness / robustness of core functionality.  ymmv

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by jackson white
grammar

[Misha]

"The "check activation" thing has been talked about a lot and the short answer is:

1. Small team, finite resources to support the product, so the more people on a current product, the less wild goose chases for old bugs that may already have been fixed in the current version"

This makes "0" sense. Most software titles have "Automatically check for updates" option. Same goes for Cakewalk.  Locally shutting down a paid license  software is not a friendly or cool thing to do to a customer.  It didn't bother me too much with cheap / free versions...  As I mentioned, only a minor software title (single developer gig) done similar from my experience.  That and Cakewalk. 

I hope some kind of clarity on that is given prior purchasing paid annual license.  

Bottom line, if a full annual license is purchased, there should be an option/choice to keep this license on a local machine as most companies do, without any trickery with de-activating software. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Misha

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

37 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

1. Small team, finite resources to support the product, so the more people on a current product, the less wild goose chases for old bugs that may already have been fixed in the current version

I believe the people that developed Natron used the same reasoning for requiring you to fill a form in order to give you access to the download and after some small time, they left the project to the community because nobody was using it.

I'd love to believe in the whole "small team, finite resources to support the product." But then you have this bandcamp-like service which sells loops, has free AI mastering, song composer and an online DAW which integrates with the one that supposedly has small support. Who are these ninja rockstar coders,  cause there will be a bunch of companies lining up with blank checks ready to hire them.

1 hour ago, Craig Anderton said:

That's why I thought the old Sonar rent-to-buy approach of "if your subscription stops, keep using the program...you just don't get any updates" made a lot of sense.

"Rent-to-buy" is just another term for a payment plan. What you're describing is a subscription plan which only applies to updates.

[John T]

Is anybody excited about scalable UI? Cause I think that's kind of exciting. For one thing, it'll make touch screen use much more viable than it's ever been in Sonar, despite it having had a decent fundamental implementation for years. I've tried it a bunch of times, and only really been defeated by the smallness of many of the controls. I can see a lot of potential in that.

[Quinellipe Zorn]

On 6/6/2023 at 8:35 AM, User 905133 said:

I am an old man. I'll cross that bridge ^^^ later on if it comes.

I am a worrier, too, so I understand the question, but for now, I will keep my faith in the company that resurrected  and continued to improve SONAR after it wasTa abandoned and discontinued by the former owner.  

Same; I'm an OLD user of Cakewalk, back from the '90s before it was "Sonar", and frankly bringing back the Sonar name gives me no comfort in and of itself BUT I have really appreciated how Bandlab not only kept the old DAW alive but even made it more reliable as well as even improved it.  I'm also encouraged that Bandlab is going full-throttle with Cakewalk/Sonar, betting their DAW/music production future on it.

That said, it's been an amazing benefit not paying for updates to CbB so that I could invest in more video as well as audio plugins and software, will miss that! 

[noynekker]

Catch 22 . . . After I replace my old dual monitors with dual 4K monitors to actually utilize the vector advantage, there won't be a lot of cash left to pay for a DAW.

[Brian Walton]

On 6/6/2023 at 4:16 PM, Noel Borthwick said:

We're still hashing out the details of pricing/payment models. What bothers you most about subscription? It's essentially a pay as you go lease model and is beneficial for those who can't justify putting down a lumpsum of cash at one time...
For those afraid of the software deactivating, there are models that allow you to purchase an annual (non-expiring) license. This is what we did in the SONAR days. An annual license is no different from buying the software outright.
 

I think it is fair to assume that if one has to setup a subscription model because a one time payment is too cost prohibitive for some then the cost of the product over the life of the subscription is also too high.   $5/month for a year is what Reaper costs to own outright though they don't seem to need to create a sub to get there.  (and yes, I bought lifetime updates under previous ownership)

While I appreciate the move to vector graphics, sad to hear the themes we have will not translate and that options to "port" and customize will be close to non-existent.

The custom theme I use is what I've grown to love (though I'll be blunt that most custom themes are unusable to me and a complete eyesore at best sometimes).  

Edited June 8, 2023 by Brian Walton

[Quinellipe Zorn]

On 6/6/2023 at 9:18 AM, Matteo Bosi said:

as long as i will not have to learn a brand new DAW system, i'll stick with cakewalk. I'm with them since 25 years!

please make the transition effortlessly and don't change the "user experience" too much.  Otherwise, if i have to "learn" too much things and have to change my workflow too much,  switching to cubase may have added values such as extended compatiblity with external controllers...

I feel like Cakewalk's UX is rather cemented, it's hard to imagine Bandlab, having made their DAW entry on the Cakewalk crowd, from departing radically from the trad UX.

I've used Cubase and Logic, as well as PARIS for a long time, ended up back with Cakewalk/Sonar after ~15 years of barely using it, and while it's radically transformed from its pre-audio/MIDI-only days, I have to say its paradigm remained/remains familiar - and, to me, likable, though that's just preference.  I suppose it has something to do with its Windows-related UI.                                                                                                                         

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

1 hour ago, John T said:

Is anybody excited about scalable UI? Cause I think that's kind of exciting. For one thing, it'll make touch screen use much more viable than it's ever been in Sonar, despite it having had a decent fundamental implementation for years. I've tried it a bunch of times, and only really been defeated by the smallness of many of the controls. I can see a lot of potential in that.

My only concern with vector based UI is that it will introduce extra overhead in the DAW. Dorico uses a vector based interface and the sofware is very unresponsive even on high end machines, as controls only respond a few seconds after you clicked them and the program becomes slower as you start actually doing stuff.