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3 hours ago, Misha said:

But what you said here, I can not agree with:

"Guitars and other real instruments are still cool, but electronic music seems to be the dominant market force now for computer based music."

I'm not saying that is my opinion of how things should be. IMHO, it just is what it is, as far as the commercial market is concerned with at the moment.

I grew up in a musical family where everybody played a real instrument, my father was a professional musician, and I studied music in school for years and learned how to read music. I like and respect all styles of music, especially the traditional ones.

I am just troubled whenever I hear comments from traditional musicians who protest the inclusion of "XYZ" features for so-called "beat makers"  into their DAW of choice, rather than some "ABC" feature that they would prefer. I'm not calling you out here, I've just heard this frequently in other threads and forums.

So please don't take my comment out of context. I was only making an observation about the music making world of today, not passing any value judgement. The tools should be agnostic to style or genre, but offer accessibility for all. Computers are making creative musical efforts more productive than the pencil and staff paper I began with. I have been a Cakewalk user for over 20 years, so I would like to see it become relevant to an even larger group of up and coming music creators. That will ensue that it will remain available for me to use, now and into the future!  I'm just afraid that if it holds onto the past, it will become irrelevant at some point.

Musically, I started out with the trumpet, and Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass were my "pop" heroes of the day (six Grammy awards, 15 gold albums and 14 platinum) .  In 1966, they even outsold the Beatles.

But by the end of the 60's Herb disbanded the original Tijuana Brass. And we have seen continuous changes in what musical styles the crowd seeks in the five decades since.

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abacab, I do not believe I take your comments  out of the context. My perspective is just a bit different from yours. I simply do not want an amazing DAW  to become  next fruity loop, just because it is hip at the moment. 

Again, I am all in for a sampler, especially the one which can accommodate people making  all kinds of music, not based on only particular features for "certain" styles  that is considered by some to be a market driver :)  

For me a good sampler should have GM2 / program change function.  Rompler, freedom of importing my own samples or SF2 / SFZ libraries/ WAV etc.,  16 channel internal mixer  and a few other things.  Actually, I think it would be very cool if Cakewalk would one day roll out a Sampler+Synth in one package that would replace TTS1 that is still used by many and which is due for update as it is 15+ years old.

P.S. I am not going to throw names and dates here, I do not believe it will help the topic,   I am somewhat familiar with electronic music .

I just hope we are still talking about the sampler here.... :)

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3 minutes ago, Misha said:

abacab, I do not believe I take your comments  out of the context. My perspective is just a bit different from yours. I simply do not want an amazing DAW  to become  next fruity loop, just because it is hip at the moment. 

Again, I am all in for a sampler, especially the one which can accommodate people making  all kinds of music, not based on only particular features for "certain" styles  that is considered by some to be a market driver :)  

For me a good sampler should have GM2 / program change function.  Rompler, freedom of importing my own samples or SF2 / SFZ libraries/ WAV etc.,  16 channel internal mixer  and a few other things.  Actually, I think it would be very cool if Cakewalk would one day roll out a Sampler+Synth in one package that would replace TTS1 that is still used by many and which is due for update as it is 15+ years old.

P.S. I am not going to throw names and dates here, I do not believe it will help the topic,   I am somewhat familiar with electronic music .

I just hope we are still talking about the sampler here.... :)

What you want can be easily bought from a 3rd party.

What we are talking about here is sampler WORKFLOW being integrated into the DAW, not just the best sampler for general use. Please stay on topic.

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20 hours ago, Misha said:

CosmicDolphin, can you please explain what you mean by:

"need something fast and deeply integrated" ... How is Kontakt or Halion VST's are less integrated or "not fast".  Sorry if I sound silly, I am a learner and always hungry for new info.

 

What @abacab said !

Other platforms are much faster in terms of workflow for producers of Hip Hop & EDM etc because they have integrated samplers that just " work " right out the gate for what they need.

 I won't repeat myself..here is a link to my previous request which pre-dates this thread https://discuss.cakewalk.com/index.php?/topic/1148-seamless-deeply-intergrated-sampler/&tab=comments#comment-8767

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A sampler built-into CbB would be nice to have.

Loops and samples are a large part of BandLab Technologues, just look at the BandLab Assistant tabs.  BandLab is able to see what material they provide gets used, what don't get used and how the material is used in their online DAW and their apps.

Everyone is commenting on Cakewalk by BandLab as though it is a standalone product because it presently is.  But, if you look at the new features that have been added they are to help integrate CbB into the BandLab Technologies universe.  I suspect Cakewalk by BandLab will add features important to the BandLab Technologies universe and as much as they are into loops a sampler makes sense.

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I'm a big advocate of adding features that people are looking for out of the box, but in the absence of them you really have to use what alternatives are available. 

For EDM and beat making, there are cheap DAWs that are optimized for that workflow. ACID Pro is on Humble Bundle for dirt cheap now. It can be a ReWire slave, and gives you 7.4GB of ACIDized Loops. Think outside the box. Nothing wrong with integrating other tools into your workflow. 

Sound Forge Pro 12 can be used for sound design and creative samples and loops, as well as wave editing from within Cakewalk. 

All of AIR's stuff is on deep discount on Plugin Boutique, including their Structure 2 Sampler (~40GB Library) and Strike 2 Drummer. The two Instrument/Synth bundles are ~$30 each.  AIR Creative FX Plus is $30.

The Synth Expansion Packs are dirt cheap, as well. 

Then, RX 7 Elements on sale for $29, and includes Iris 2 Synth.

If you have Ozone Elements, you can upgrade to Standard for $59.

That brings Cakewalk up to par with what a lot of commercial DAWs offer out of the box. Install CbB and Drum Replacer. Skip Studio Instruments as they aren't really useful (sound awful).

For $150-200 + CbB, you can have a DAW + Content package on par with or better than Studio One Professional. 

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On 1/9/2019 at 3:07 AM, Eve Ripper said:

I think we really need new sampler to use it in Cakewalk.

In world of free software I really like TX16WX which can be used not as a sample player but really as a sampler.

@Eve Ripper

I agree with you 100 percent that it would be nice for CbB to have a tightly integrated general purpose sampler built-in.  Yes, there are many third party options available but they are an add-on.

I want to be able to have a sampler in the multi dock that just works without requiring any set up beyond what CbB presently requires.  I want to be able to use the media browser to be able to move samples in and out of the sampler.  I want to be able to use the Cakewalk virtual keyboard to play the sampler to create an audio track.

@CosmicDolphin

I believe I also supported your post back when it was posted.

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On 3/31/2019 at 8:28 PM, Misha said:

abacab, I do not believe I take your comments  out of the context. My perspective is just a bit different from yours. I simply do not want an amazing DAW  to become  next fruity loop, just because it is hip at the moment. 

Again, I am all in for a sampler, especially the one which can accommodate people making  all kinds of music, not based on only particular features for "certain" styles  that is considered by some to be a market driver :)  

For me a good sampler should have GM2 / program change function.  Rompler, freedom of importing my own samples or SF2 / SFZ libraries/ WAV etc.,  16 channel internal mixer  and a few other things.  Actually, I think it would be very cool if Cakewalk would one day roll out a Sampler+Synth in one package that would replace TTS1 that is still used by many and which is due for update as it is 15+ years old.

P.S. I am not going to throw names and dates here, I do not believe it will help the topic,   I am somewhat familiar with electronic music .

I just hope we are still talking about the sampler here.... :)

There are no reason why the features cant co-exist. In my opinion Cakewalk should become more "electronic music producer" friendly because that is where the most users are. 

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I think my previous comment are very short sighted. 

The community have spoken and Cakewalk will focus on bug fixes and audio improvements.

The electronic music crowd will probably use VST's in conjunction with Cakewalk. 

I believe in the future the step sequencer and sampler will be souped up. 

To satisfy everybody will be very difficult and I am glad for what we have. 

Cakewalk is not just a DAW anymore, its a movement. 

Edited by Francois van der Merwe

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54 minutes ago, Francois van der Merwe said:

I think my previous comment are very short sighted. 

The community have spoken and Cakewalk will focus on bug fixes and audio improvements.

The electronic music crowd will probably use VST's in conjunction with Cakewalk. 

I believe in the future the step sequencer and sampler will be souped up. 

To satisfy everybody will be very difficult and I am glad for what we have. 

Cakewalk is not just a DAW anymore, its a movement. 

I think not focusing on adding features that other DAWs have added (and are using to leach customers off of Cakewalk - Gibson shutting it down was not the only reason those aggressive crossgrade offers were so successful) is a mistake, but the Cakewalk community is dominated by "old timers" who are coming over from SONAR - and those forums 😉

The "package" that is CbB looks very different for someone who installs it on a machine with SONAR Platinum, than someone who doesn't have anything else on their machine... At least, compared to a fresh installation of most other DAWs (barring Reaper, which still has a lot more Effects for Mixing and Mastering than CbB out of the box).

For many of those other people, the CbB package (and feature set) doesn't seem all that competitive - or attractive - because the major investment for music production is not the DAW itself.  The price of a DAW is a drop in the bucket.

Trying to argue for feature additions just results in people piling on, so it just is not worth it.  The developers  regard much of it as "advocating for bloating up the DAW," anyways.  A few people cannot change those sentiments, so most people are more likely to walk away and pay $60 for Reaper than use "Free CbB," because they don't feel like they have a voice in this community.

Most old timers are used to what SONAR has to offer, and have built their workflows around its [comparative] limitations.  They have the content from the commercial SONAR packages as a "default," so they don't have to pay for the price of a DAW with more development/support just to get it up to par with what those offer out of the box.

Most free VSTi, Sample Libraries are mediocre.  I've tried tons of them, and scoured the internet.  These days, I'd rather pay $400-500 then waste another 20 hours trialing out things.  The time is worth far more than the cost of a piece of software.

The best option you have is going to Plug-In Boutique and buying everything from AIR that is on discount (Effects, Sampler, VSTi, Synths) and perhaps a few things from iZotope, as well.  It will cost you a couple/few hundred dollars, but you will have a decent base set of stuff to produce music in CbB.

As far as DAW features are concerned...  Good Luck if any of the disparities hurt you in Cakewalk.  Either you deal with them, and/or use supplementary applications (incl. other DAWs, Notation Editors, etc.) to pick up the slack, or simply use a different product.

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16 hours ago, Francois van der Merwe said:

There are no reason why the features cant co-exist. In my opinion Cakewalk should become more "electronic music producer" friendly because that is where the most users are. 

Most people here aren't concerned with growing marketshare by closing the feature gap and making the DAW more applicable to more workflows.

They just expect people to use the DAW and help them increase it's market penetration, while "dealing with it" because "you can't complain about free."

That's why there is an overemphasis on bug fixes.  They're okay with the product, so they're only concerned about making it better for themselves... not you or any other "potential users."

Meanwhile they complain that it isn't getting enough reviews or press at music websites/magazines.

Edited by SomeGuy
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On 9/7/2019 at 9:43 PM, SomeGuy said:

Most people here aren't concerned with growing marketshare by closing the feature gap and making the DAW more applicable to more workflows.

They just expect people to use the DAW and help them increase it's market penetration, while "dealing with it" because "you can't complain about free."

That's why there is an overemphasis on bug fixes.  They're okay with the product, so they're only concerned about making it better for themselves... not you or any other "potential users."

Meanwhile they complain that it isn't getting enough reviews or press at music websites/magazines.

I don´t really get this post. What "feature gap"? CbB has its own feature set, that obviously is not the same as programs like Bitwig or Ableton Live, but that is not much different from other programs of its kind, like Logic or Cubase, and both of them are widely used for electronic music. Even  though Live has become the de facto standard for that, you see a lot of people using Logic, that has a feature set much like CbB´s. 

I also do not see that attitude that you mention, "you can't complain about free" from the developing team´s side, who seem very much commited to make this software improve, not only in stability but also in core  features.  And yes, maybe sometimes you can not complain about free if your complain is that you are not getting enough instruments or plugins of your liking with your free DAW.

 

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On 9/12/2019 at 10:03 AM, JoseC said:

1.  I don´t really get this post. What "feature gap"? CbB has its own feature set, that obviously is not the same as programs like Bitwig or Ableton Live, but that is not much different from other programs of its kind, like Logic or Cubase, and both of them are widely used for electronic music. Even  though Live has become the de facto standard for that, you see a lot of people using Logic, that has a feature set much like CbB´s. 

2.  I also do not see that attitude that you mention, "you can't complain about free" from the developing team´s side, who seem very much commited to make this software improve, not only in stability but also in core  features.  And yes, maybe sometimes you can not complain about free if your complain is that you are not getting enough instruments or plugins of your liking with your free DAW.

 

1.  The feature gap that is obvious when you use other DAWs and then use Cakewalk.  It exists, it doesn't mean CbB is "bad."  Yes, CbB is fine; maybe even AMAZING for the people who have sat on SONAR for many years and are used to just working with what they are handed.   However, there is a pretty sizeable disparity in feature set in core areas vs. many other DAWs due to their superior development momentum and investment from the parent companies.  This leads to a product that is less dependent on plugins and/or external applications to work productively (if we can say that).

People have been doing Orchestral Composition in DAWs like FL Studio and Ableton for a decade or more.  Typecasting DAWs is for the 1990s.  Most of them are pretty well-rounded and "generalist" these days - even if they still retain clear historical strong suits - because there is only so much you can do within one niche, and sitting within a niche is not good business.  And if you aren't delivering the goods, then users see no point in paying for upgrades (or subscribing/moving up from perpetual to subscription).  They will just use their old version, and keep on trucking.

There is a decent amount of disparity between CbB and LPX.  Just look at the Staff/Score editor that [paying] users had been begging for the developers to fix for probably a decade.  Logic is in a completely different league, there.  Logic also has much better audio editing than CbB.  Cakewalk feels the base of an amazing package, but the developers shifted away from shoring up the DAW itself to bundling Plugins, Instruments, etc. instead

2.  Read the forums?

Instruments and Plug-Ins aren't worth complaining much about, except for the fact that it is not great for getting newbies onto the platform .  Those users tend to prefer to get a decent "package" out of the box so that they can at least have fun making music without having to worry about what they need to add onto it.

Stability fixes and small things here and there are nice...  if CbB - as it stands today - were a $200-250 upgrade from SONAR Platinum...  how would you feel about that?

That isn't to say the changes they've made aren't good (and bug fixes are always good).  I just think they're overrated, and the development rate is such that the product is still seen as stagnant by most people.

There's a reason why the mad rush of cross grade offers after the Gibson announcement was so successful, and most of those people did not come back after the BandLab announcement.

 

Edited by SomeGuy
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@SomeGuy

I am extremely grateful to the new owner of CakeWalk. I believe him and the developers of CdB would like to satisfy all of its users, catering to the audio, electronic music and composing crowds simultaneously.  At the moment Bandlab are aiming towards 100 employees.   The startup itself is fully funded and the investors of Bandlab have a net worth of $13.2 Billion Dollars US.  I believe the resources to turn this DAW into an all-rounder are there and it will happen. We just have to be patient. 

Edited by Francois van der Merwe
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On 9/18/2019 at 6:02 AM, Francois van der Merwe said:

@SomeGuy

I am extremely grateful to the new owner of CakeWalk. I believe him and the developers of CdB would like to satisfy all of its users, catering to the audio, electronic music and composing crowds simultaneously.  At the moment Bandlab are aiming towards 100 employees.   The startup itself is fully funded and the investors of Bandlab have a net worth of $13.2 Billion Dollars US.  I believe the resources to turn this DAW into an all-rounder are there and it will happen. We just have to be patient. 

All of that is fine.  Everyone is grateful.  Myself included.  Even if I had never used the software, I'd be grateful.

A competitive market only benefits consumers, and Cakewalk forces other competitors to deliver by virtue of existing at its price point.  It means that any product that wants to sell for anything has to "approach at least as good" as CbB to be worth it (value proposition) - assuming they've heard of it.

That is a good thing for all of us.

However, in order to get people to switch over - particularly those who already OWN other DAWs, and can easily secure Upgrade or Crossgrade pricing to competing products - or rope in and keep serious users; the product needs to grow its user base and it needs to give the impression that it isn't just being kept around in maintenance mode. 

Stagnation is a deterrent. Artists are innovative, and they want to feel like their tools will enable that [by developing and innovating] as well.  Much as we detest it, this is an industry of FADs.  Waves come and go, and products that don't allow people to surf them tend to get left by the wayside.

Cakewalk is already an all-arounder.  The issue isn't what "type" the DAW fits in (90% of DAWs are all-arounders, even when marketed with historical strengths).  It's whether [or not] it delivers what users are looking for; and whether what it does deliver is worth using it over paying for a competing product.

In principle, I don't disagree with anything you're saying.

Patience is easier to have when you don't depend on these tools for your quality of life.

The grass is always greener on the other side.  Sometimes it's a mirage.  Other times, it's just the fact of life.

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Deleted.

Edited by Jim Fogle
Delete question. It was answered later in post.

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Personally, I would prefer that they work on things that can’t be done via VST. There are samplers galore on the market, so refining and simplifying the workflow and maximizing stability should be prioritized. I think this approach is already attracting attention.

 

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Just an observation here, but I think the term "sampler" means different things to different folks, as it appears to often  be a used in a rather broad context. This seems to sometimes result in a rather polarized discussion where both viewpoints can be correct, but are actually referring to different objects.

To the folks that consider a sampler as something to load in a ready made instrument library and play back those sounds (aka as a ROMpler), or something to painstakingly build an instrument library up one multi-sample at a time, I totally agree that we don't need yet another one of those.

But to those who actually prefer to sample (record) sounds within their projects, and like to manipulate them as melodic or percussive instrument parts in their creative song writing  process,   that can be a different animal.  And I don't think this is genre specific in any way, but is a new type of workflow enabled by working in the modern DAW.

There are a few existing DAWs that have successfully integrated some built-in basic sampling tools to improve the workflow for those who choose to use sampling that way. I can see that Studio One Pro, Cubase Pro,  Ableton Live, Bitwig Studio, Reason, Traction Waveform, and possibly others already  offer integrated sampling.

I don't think that having an integrated sampling tool available would get in the way of those not interested in it, so it really all would come down to development priorities. But adding this one feature would up the game for Cakewalk, and maybe even interest those existing users who have never tried it, but may be seeking some new creative juice. And quite possibly bring more users into Cakewalk.

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19 hours ago, Jon L. Jacobi said:

Personally, I would prefer that they work on things that can’t be done via VST. There are samplers galore on the market, so refining and simplifying the workflow and maximizing stability should be prioritized. I think this approach is already attracting attention.

 

In a similar discussion during the Gibson era, this was the sentiment that was given back to the users on a few occasions; but there is definite benefit for users to have an integrated solution if sampling is a key part of their workflow. When dealing with 3rd party solutions, it can lose a lot of integration functionality, forcing the user to either do all work in the VST or drag/drop between workflow steps. Example is the Matrix View... it is an already existing module that could be beefed up to compete with Impact XT/Sample One XT (manipulating data in Matrix View has always been frustrating).

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