Tempo map

[radofdublin]

Hi everyone,

Is it possible to create a tempo map from a recorded wave.

I’ve read the documentation and seems doable but I’m not having any luck.

I’m trying to add midi drums to a prerecorded track.

Thanks for any help

[msmcleod]

If you've got Melodyne installed, you can just drag the audio clip on to the time ruler.

[bitflipper]

Maybe Melodyne makes this easier, but I still use the same method I've used since SONAR 6.

1. Select the audio track

2. Press ALT-A to bring up the AudioSnap dialog

3. Click the "On" (enable AudioSnap) button

4. Click on "Set Project from Clip"

5. If you don't care about the transient detection, click the "On" button again to hide them

You now have a tempo map that follows the audio pretty well.

 

[radofdublin]

Thank you.

[Bill Phillips]

On 4/4/2023 at 2:42 PM, bitflipper said:

Fast beat.

[bitflipper]

It's actually ~120 bpm. That's something AudioSnap sometimes does, guessing a tempo that's double the actual tempo. I still think it's pretty damn impressive, given that in this example it's extracting beats from a full - and in this case very dense - mix. An MP3, at that. It'd be more accurate on a drum track.

[John Vere]

I just pulled the tempo from Creedence's Cross tie walker today. It drifted from 94-99BPM. There was just one little spot that glitched and jumped to 150 due to a funky guitar riff he was using in the 3rd verse. Easy to fix if you know how.

But basically I recorded the song directly from You Tube using my Loopback input and then drag it to the timeline and use percussive algorithm. Then I turn on ripple edit and drag the whole song until it lines up with the grid and leave room for a count in. Then I run the metronome and listen for any drift. It's amazing how tight the metronome stays. If there's a drift you just move a node up or down until it's right. 

Then I play along and build the song part by part and because it's on the grid I can quantize parts. This one was easy because it is just Bass and drums .  I added a piano for the heck of it too. After I'm done I just deleted the audio and the tempo map and set the tempo at 99.
It's a great way to copy the exact arrangement of cover songs  and add the correct little pieces like drum fills. I had to add a better ending as it was a fade out which doesn’t work for live music . 

I have successfully done this for many fully mastered songs including rebuilding my own that were recorded pre DAW era.  I've actually never tried audio snap method. Looks like too much work to me when I watched the videos. I think the Melodyne tempo detection has improved a lot with version 5.  But the material needs to be dynamic. I don't think it will work on brick walled stuff. Needs the transients. The Creedence song worked because you can see every snare hit in the waveform. 

Edited April 6, 2023 by John Vere

[radofdublin]

Thanks everyone!

[Bill Phillips]

11 hours ago, bitflipper said:

It's actually ~120 bpm. That's something AudioSnap sometimes does, guessing a tempo that's double the actual tempo. I still think it's pretty damn impressive, given that in this example it's extracting beats from a full - and in this case very dense - mix. An MP3, at that. It'd be more accurate on a drum track.

I'm going to try it. Thanks.

 

11 hours ago, John Vere said:

I just pulled the tempo from Creedence's Cross tie walker today. It drifted from 94-99BPM. There was just one little spot that glitched and jumped to 150 due to a funky guitar riff he was using in the 3rd verse. Easy to fix if you know how.

But basically I recorded the song directly from You Tube using my Loopback input and then drag it to the timeline and use percussive algorithm. Then I turn on ripple edit and drag the whole song until it lines up with the grid and leave room for a count in. Then I run the metronome and listen for any drift. It's amazing how tight the metronome stays. If there's a drift you just move a node up or down until it's right. 

Then I play along and build the song part by part and because it's on the grid I can quantize parts. This one was easy because it is just Bass and drums .  I added a piano for the heck of it too. After I'm done I just deleted the audio and the tempo map and set the tempo at 99.
It's a great way to copy the exact arrangement of cover songs  and add the correct little pieces like drum fills. I had to add a better ending as it was a fade out which doesn’t work for live music . 

I have successfully done this for many fully mastered songs including rebuilding my own that were recorded pre DAW era.  I've actually never tried audio snap method. Looks like too much work to me when I watched the videos. I think the Melodyne tempo detection has improved a lot with version 5.  But the material needs to be dynamic. I don't think it will work on brick walled stuff. Needs the transients. The Creedence song worked because you can see every snare hit in the waveform. 

I use Melodyne too, and have had very few problems. Most of the songs I mix are vocal and acoustic guitar only. So not very complicated. My only complaint is that I get dozens of really small tempo changes. I'm thinking the AudioSnap method will allow me to drastically reduce the number of tempo change. Not sure which will work best with tempo based FX, but hope to find out.

[John Vere]

Those dozens of small tempo changes are what makes it stay synced to the grid. It’s something that can be hidden if it scares you.  

I can only imagine that stuff like this puts more stress on your CPU so I never keep the tempo map after I’m done with it. 

As I said my workflow is to recreate the song using all midi first. Then I delete the tempo map and choose the single tempo I want. Then I would start recording audio if the project is more than just a backing track.  Mostly I use tempo extraction for making backing tracks.  

I find it faster and easier to play along with the original to come closer to the correct vibe of the song. Especially drums and bass. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by John Vere

[msmcleod]

1 hour ago, John Vere said:

Those dozens of small tempo changes are what makes it stay synced to the grid. It’s something that can be hidden if it scares you.  

I can only imagine that stuff like this puts more stress on your CPU so I never keep the tempo map after I’m done with it. 

As I said my workflow is to recreate the song using all midi first. Then I delete the tempo map and choose the single tempo I want. Then I would start recording audio if the project is more than just a backing track.  Mostly I use tempo extraction for making backing tracks.  

I find it faster and easier to play along with the original to come closer to the correct vibe of the song. Especially drums and bass. 

The tempo map is re-calculated after any change in the tempo track / tempo inspector, and while tempo changes in the tempo map have a slight hit on CPU, it's pretty insignificant compared to actually entering the changes - hence the slight delay after making changes in the tempo track. On other words, the hard work is done up front at the tempo editing stage.

Once the tempo map is calculated, reading the tempo changes is pretty cheap.  And the advantage of using a varied tempo map is a more natural sounding project that is also visually snapped to the grid.

[John Vere]

 

15 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

Once the tempo map is calculated, reading the tempo changes is pretty cheap.  And the advantage of using a varied tempo map is a more natural sounding project that is also visually snapped to the grid.

Thanks for that Mark. Good to know. I have a pretty old computer so I'm still cautious about keeping projects very simple and straight forward. As I said these are backing tracks and a steady tempo is perfect as I doubt very much the punters on the dance floor give a hoot about "natural" sounding tracks 😁 . 

A natural tempo map is a great way to go for those songs you record live, be it a band or singer songwriter tunes played on acoustic guitar or a real piano. I've done that as well taking old recording of mine that were originally done with a live drummer and I re build them using drum replacer etc. Cakewalks tools are incredible for this and it's amazing to take old tracks and bring them forward with the tools for sonic improvements now on hand.  I find the tempo extraction has improved over time I guess due to Melodyn upgrades. 

[Bill Phillips]

On 4/7/2023 at 10:28 AM, John Vere said:

Those dozens of small tempo changes are what makes it stay synced to the grid. It’s something that can be hidden if it scares you.  

I can only imagine that stuff like this puts more stress on your CPU so I never keep the tempo map after I’m done with it. 

As I said my workflow is to recreate the song using all midi first. Then I delete the tempo map and choose the single tempo I want. Then I would start recording audio if the project is more than just a backing track.  Mostly I use tempo extraction for making backing tracks.  

I find it faster and easier to play along with the original to come closer to the correct vibe of the song. Especially drums and bass. 

Thanks John, I'll stick with the Melodyne method.

On 4/7/2023 at 11:48 AM, msmcleod said:

The tempo map is re-calculated after any change in the tempo track / tempo inspector, and while tempo changes in the tempo map have a slight hit on CPU, it's pretty insignificant compared to actually entering the changes - hence the slight delay after making changes in the tempo track. On other words, the hard work is done up front at the tempo editing stage.

Once the tempo map is calculated, reading the tempo changes is pretty cheap.  And the advantage of using a varied tempo map is a more natural sounding project that is also visually snapped to the grid.

That is good news. Thanks Mark. I'm sold; keep using Melodyne.

[Tim Braun]

Hi, folks

I've tried using AudioSnap on a couple of commercial songs I wanted to re-track, but haven't had much success.

Today it was a punk track and it was drifting from 187 - 189 bpm. I found it worked better to get the tempo map track up, and just insert tempo corrections when necessary, like after 4 or 8 bars or so if it was drifting.

Once the drums and maybe a scratch bass line are basically  recreated in midi and I have the arrangement blocked out, I'll copy the project and delete the tempo map, running at a consistent tempo.

Just my 0.02, another way to do it.

[msmcleod]

42 minutes ago, Tim Braun said:

Hi, folks

I've tried using AudioSnap on a couple of commercial songs I wanted to re-track, but haven't had much success.

Today it was a punk track and it was drifting from 187 - 189 bpm. I found it worked better to get the tempo map track up, and just insert tempo corrections when necessary, like after 4 or 8 bars or so if it was drifting.

Once the drums and maybe a scratch bass line are basically  recreated in midi and I have the arrangement blocked out, I'll copy the project and delete the tempo map, running at a consistent tempo.

Just my 0.02, another way to do it.

Both AudioSnap and Melodyne rely on transient detection to work out the tempo, so depending on the material, the results can vary.

One feature that has been in Cakewalk since the pre-SONAR days is "Fit to Improvisation".

To use it:

1. Create a new MIDI track, and arm it.
2. Start recording and tap quarter notes on your keyboard or a drum pad.  Use the same note/pad throughout until the end of the song.
3. Select the MIDI clip you've just recorded, then choose "Fit to Improvisation" from the Process menu.

A tempo map will be created based on your performance.  Assuming you can tap in time, this is still in my opinion the most reliable way of creating a tempo map.

[Bruno de Souza Lino]

On 5/18/2023 at 7:50 PM, msmcleod said:

Both AudioSnap and Melodyne rely on transient detection to work out the tempo, so depending on the material, the results can vary.

One feature that has been in Cakewalk since the pre-SONAR days is "Fit to Improvisation".

To use it:

1. Create a new MIDI track, and arm it.
2. Start recording and tap quarter notes on your keyboard or a drum pad.  Use the same note/pad throughout until the end of the song.
3. Select the MIDI clip you've just recorded, then choose "Fit to Improvisation" from the Process menu.

A tempo map will be created based on your performance.  Assuming you can tap in time, this is still in my opinion the most reliable way of creating a tempo map.

Sometimes fit to improvisation doesn't do anything, which can be a fun exercise in frustration.

There doesn't seem to be a solution for when you encounter stuff with time signature changes. Taking the tempo division would set it at a tempo that would change when you change the signature. Can't line it with the grid because the grid changes once you change the tempo or time signature.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Bruno de Souza Lino

[Blogospherianman]

On 5/20/2023 at 1:35 AM, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

There doesn't seem to be a solution for when you encounter stuff with time signature changes

I prefer to map the tempo/time signatures by hand as it guarantees that the map is exactly as it should be.  Been doing it this way for over twenty years.  😄

Turn on the click track, open Tempo view or tempo track, draw the tempos by hand to keep the click right where the beat is. It takes practice and patience.  
I’ll even use multiple versions (live/studio).

Map one version then tell that version Clip follows project, then map the next version.

Map that version then tell the second one to Clip follows project, then map another.

I’ve literally had three different versions of the same song all synced up perfectly as a reference. Then I’ll adjust the Tempo map to suit my own version.

To make Ape-ing a track even funner, use Izotope RX10 to separate the references into Percussion, Bass, Vox and Other using Then adjust the Key and Tempo/Arrangement to suit .Then just mute the stuff as you lay each part down.  I’ll end up with the full track of mine with the original artist’s Vox as a scratch vox.  

 

 

[dilletant]

It's strange that no one mentioned "Set Measure/Beat at Now" command. I always use this method, it's most reliable and precise tool. Of course it requires some manual work and is kind of time consuming, but allows you to have total control of the tempo map points.