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Not a deal - 8dio


Fleer

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On 1/14/2023 at 11:26 AM, Fleer said:

I’m actually feeling quite positive towards Mike Greene, VI Control’s head honcho. He mostly remains neutral, which surely can’t be easy (also because he’s a dev himself, but he’s candid about that). 

But he actually doesn't remain neutral and that has long been a concern of the developer community. Mike attempts to create the perception that he's neutral, but one can easily see that he's had a good deal of run-ins with developers and sometimes engages in name-calling of people on his forum (mental illness is a go to insult for Mike). If you look on the final or second to last page of the 8Dio attack thread, there's one of the only posts where someone is defending 8Dio that MIke didn't delete and Mike harasses the guy. He accuses him of being a shill for 8Dio and then mocks him. It in no way reflects a man (Greene) who is remaining neutral. 

I realize it's a controversial issue with people. But when Christian Henson made an anti-trans tweet furthering misinformation (basically that small children are getting ***** change operations in the UK; in fact, the minimum age there is 16),  a conversation began at VI-Control with a good deal of LGBTQ composers wanting to discuss the situation. Mike censored any conversation related to the Henson matter.  I'm your average heterosexual married once middle-aged dad and don't have an agenda beyond treating others with respect and kindness, but I'm not a fan of censorship.  I think it would have been great if the conversation were allowed to continue. When Mike doesn't like a developer or someone disagrees with him, he tends to be pretty aggressive, I would say even bullying. Just from what you can observe in the 8Dio thread, he's furthering stories without any evidence to support allegations and these stories go back 13 years, even before the formation of 8Dio, and I know one of them personally, and it's not being represented truthfully.  And I can tell you first hand that if you criticize one of his friends or Mike himself, that post will likely be deleted.  Mike acknowledged deleting hundreds of posts in the 8Dio thread -- I had some of them and I know some others that had their posts deleted or saw pro 8DIo posts deleted -- yet Mike claims that he didn't delete a single pro 8Dio post. Mike is angry at 8Dio since they pulled their sponsorship of VI-Control and the CEO harshly criticized him. Also,  Sarah and Mario both work for Impact Soundworks/Andrew Aversa, who also posted in the thread and is an 8Dio competitor and Vi-Control advertiser. That wasn’t disclosed by Sarah, Mario, Andrew or Mike. 

Edited by PavlovsCat
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On 1/14/2023 at 11:54 AM, Technostica said:

Is it possible to set up a server side script that automatically moves all threads with 'not a deal' in the title, to a different forum? :)

Did you ever think we've turned Deals into our own little forum and post everything to get attention?   It's actually rude on a forum hosted by a developer.  We take advantage of the freedom here.  Try that on any other developer's forum.   We are becoming the VI Control  mini version.  

Check this site out for a change,  https://discuss.cakewalk.com/index.php?/forum/29-community/

How many of us monopolize a forum hosting a product not everyone uses?  Of course the overall forum could use a better structure.  We've taken advantage of the liberties here/

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3 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

Did you ever think we've turned Deals into our own little forum and post everything to get attention?   It's actually rude on a forum hosted by a developer.  We take advantage of the freedom here.  Try that on any other developer's forum.   We are becoming the VI Control  mini version.  

Check this site out for a change,  https://discuss.cakewalk.com/index.php?/forum/29-community/

How many of us monopolize a forum hosting a product not everyone uses?  Of course the overall forum could use a better structure.  We've taken advantage of the liberties here/

Ironically, that IS what the Coffee House was for originally... 🤔

(Some deal, ya? 😁 )

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  • 9 months later...

THE TRUE STORIES BEHIND THE 8DIO ATTACKS on VI-CONTROL 

MY BACKGROUND  and WHY I GOT INVOLVED TO SHARE WHAT I KNOW

Over the years, I've provided consulting advice to around 3 dozen sample and plugin developers. It was never a key source of income, more of an extension of my hobby, but it's amounted to 6 figures over that entire period. My background is leading digital marketing at large brands prior to starting a dot com which grew out of my recognition as a business speaker and writer. I've given advice to Troels during his  ToneHammer days  (1 session 15 years ago), I've given advice to Mike Greene, the owner of Realitone and  Vi-Control,  and I was the person who gave advice to Mario / Evil Dragon 13 ago (via a developer) after he did a comparison of a ToneHammer library with one he worked on without disclosing that he worked on the competitor library, which he praised as superior to TomeHammer's library. It was unethical shilling, plain and simple, and Greene knows the true story, but still promoted a false narrative, leveraging Mario for his vendetta attack on 8Dio.  

THE ROOT OF MIKE GREENE'S VENDETTA: SEVERAL WEEKS  PRIOR TO THE ATTACK, 8DIO PULLED THEIR SPONSORSHIP OF VI-CONTROL DUE TO GREENE'S  CENSORSHIP OF THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY  

How did it all start? 

TIMELINE: 
SEPT 2022: Greene Censors Discussions About Henson's Transphobic Tweet. 8Dio CEO Contacts Greene to Persuade Him to Allow Discussion. Greene Refuses, The Conversation Isn't Pleasant and Greene Taunts the CEO . 8Dio Pulls Sponsorship of VI-Control. 
JAN 2023: Greene Actively Participates in Defamatory Thread  Containing a Series of Character Attacks Against 8Dio's Co-Founders, with the Aid of a Scripter Upset that She Didn't Get the Offer She Wanted for an Uncommissioned 8Dio Fan Project. The Scripter (Sarah) and Greene Leverage Anyone They Can Find Who's Had a Grievance with 8Dio or One of Its Founders, Going Back 13 Years to Make Their Attack. 

 

Sept 2022: 
8Dio's CEO, Tawnia Knox , PMs Vi-Control owner (and also owner of Realitone, an 8Dio competitor) Mike Greene to persuade him that 8Dio to stop the censorship of threads discussing the Christian Henson tweet; with the premise that canceling this conversation is unfair to the LGBTQ community.  Greene disagrees strongly, and reacts unpleasantly. Knox states 8Dio is pulling all sponsorship of VI-Control. The conversation is not friendly. Greene's communications with Knox could be described as demeaning, unfriendly, condescending/insulting, and abrasive. Greene doesn't like Knox and clearly wants her to know it.

I realize that Henson's tweet is the subject of disagreement and has been politicized. I hope that, regardless of your worldview, we can agree that conversation is better than canceling conversations and retreating to corners. I'd also add that while Greene has publicly stated many times that he is a solid liberal and can be abrasive ot the other side, Ms. Knox is a very non-political person, and I don't believe there is any political element to this. 

Jan 2023: 
The timeline is undeniable. Only several weeks after 8Dio pulled their sponsorship of VI-Control, Greene was a very aggressive part -- eventually the attack leader -- of a very hostile, libelous attack thread against 8Dio at VI-Control. Greene and two contractors of 8Dio competitor Impact Soundworks (IS), later joined by IS CEO, Andrew Aversa (a friend of Greene). Sarah and Mario attacked and mocked 8Dio and its two principals, but never disclosed that they worked for an 8Dio competitor. Aversa joined in on the attack against the IS competitor and did not disclose that Sarah and Mario worked for him. 

SARAH'S STORY:  A KONTAKT SCRIPTER UPSET HER UNCOMMISSIONED FAN PROJECT FOR A RETIRED 8DIO LIBRARY WASN'T PURCHASED FOR 5-6 FIGURES FROM 8DIO
Sarah Mancuso originally created the thread to share her fan scripting project for a retired 8Dio library. For more than 20 pages, she praised 8Dio's work as a developer. However, when Sarah went to 8Dio to pitch buying it for 6-7 figures (the amount is disputed), 8Dio felt that the retired library didn't have commercial viability and instead offered Sarah the opportunity to work on upcoming projects. Sarah rejected 8Dio's offer for upcoming projects and instead stayed fixated on getting 8Dio to buy her fan project, persuading 8Dio to re-released the retired library to see how it sells. 8Dio did re-release their retired library and during the course of several months it sold a total of $400 USD. As a result 8Dio re-retired the library. Troels decided to use Mancuso's donate page to give Sarah $300 USD of the proceeds to show his thanks for her efforts. Sarah was offended at Troels' gesture and turned her 8Dio fan thread at VI-Control into an attack thread, using her story, her co-worker at Impact Soundwork's story with Troels that pre-dates the formation of 8Dio and anyone she could find that had a dispute with 8Dio going back a decade or more to find two additional individuals she didn't know that she leveraged to attack the developer. Some VI-Control forum participants bought Sarah's narrative but started to come to the conclusion that Sarah was not wronged by 8Dio. After Sarah name-called 8Dio's management -- including calling 8Dio's CEO, whom she never met or had a single interaction with, an "evil bitch," Mancuso eventually acknowledged that 8Dio did not wrong her and privately acknowledged to me that she never met or had any interaction with 8Dio's CEO. Mancuso's sole impression of her was based on Mike Greene's opinion. A week ago, Sarah Mancuso told me that she no longer feels good about Mike Green or believes him to be a friend. 

MARIO'S STORY AND HOW THE FORUM  OWNER  CENSORED THE TRUE STORY OF IP THEFT, SHILLING  AND VI -CONTROL'S OWNER "STACKING THE DECK" TO CREATE A FALSE NARRATIVE TO ATTACK A FELLOW DEVELOPER 
13 years ago Mario / Evil Dragon deceptively posed as an unaffiliated KVR member comparing what we'll call K choir sample library to Embertone's library (the sample developer Troels co-founded prior to 8Dio) and proclaiming that the K library was superior. Mario didn't disclose that he was actually shilling for K developer. Mario had done the KONTAKT scripting on the library. K had plagiarized some of ToneHammer's intellectual property in the creation of their library, so there was a bad history.  When Troels realized that Mario was doing a "fake review" of a library he worked on, he confronted Mario and told him what he was doing was unethical and he could be sued. Worried that he was caught doing something unethical and illegal, Mario turned to a developer I advised who called me in to give Mario advice.  My advice to Mario 13 years ago was that what he did was unethical and he shouldn't have done it and that he should apologize to Troels. I told him that he shouldn't worry about a lawsuit, that while ToneHammer was within its rights to sue, the lawsuit would most likely be confined to K and not Mario, as Mario lived in Croatia and ToneHammer was based in the US. Consequently, it would be very costly to do that lawsuit and likely cost more than Mario's net worth. To find out 13 years later that Mario not only never apologized to Troels, but that Mario is now mispresenting facts and claiming that he's a bullied victim was very disappointing, patently false and unethical. 

I shared this in the original attack thread, but Greene deleted my posts, PMing me not to get involved. Deleting my posts along with hundreds of other comments in the thread. Greene later falsely stated that he never deleted a single post defending 8Dio. 

MIKE GREENE'S  ATTACKS ON 8DIO AND ITS CEO 

Mike Greene went from calling Sarah's, Mario's, and two other people's stories allegations to presenting their allegations -- some of which Greene privately knew to be false -- as facts. Greene went on to create a false narrative that 8Dio has a history of bullying people and is very litigious, never providing a single piece of evidence for these claims. Sadly, you can see Greene's narrative reflected in the comments of posts he didn't delete and more recent posts in 8Dio related threads at VI-Control. Greene has privately acknowledged to me that he realizes that his behavior with the 8Dio attack thread may have been wrong, but still continues to post angry, defamatory rants against 8Dio, often stating that 8Dio's deep discount sales prices are destroying the sample development industry and that 8Dio is leading a "race to the bottom" with their heavy discounting. Greene has very boldly made clear that he despises Tawnia Knox in our correspondence and tried to persuade me to dislike her, similar to the way he has influenced Sarah Mancusio and Mario / Evil Dragon. 

8DIO CEO, MOCKED, RIDICULED AND DEFAMED BY GREENE, SARAH AND MARIO, IN A TOXIC, BULLYING THREAD ENCOURAGING A MOB TO JOIN IN THE ATTACKS 

While Sarah referred to 8Dio’s CEO Tawnia Knox in her attack thread as an “evil bitch” and Mario also disparaged Tawnia, neither Sarah nor Mario have ever met, exchanged a single email, PM, text or even had a conversation in social media or a forum with Tawnia. I have confirmed this directly with Mario and Sarah, although they were both very evasive before finally acknowledging the truth.  Mario’s and Sarah’s opinion of Tawnia Knox was based solely on what they were told by Mike Greene and their employer, 8Dio competitor, Andrew Aversa,  owner of Impact Soundworks. I'd interviewed Tawnia and was supplied with correspondence between her and Mike Greene and others. I found that Greene represented different stories than he privately knew to be true. The private Greene is very different than his public persona. In his correspondence with Knox -- and his remarks to me regarding Knox -- he is routinely mocking, insulting and taunting. 

I was impressed with Troels that even while Mike, Mario, and Sarah were berating him after he gave what appeared to me an honest apology -- when I knew that Mario owed him an apology -- Troels didn't react and never shared something in Mario's past from around that time that he could easily have shared that would greatly impact Mario's credibility. Because back then, it was widely rumored that Mario was engaged in piracy. I know that Troels knew that, but chose not to disclose that even when faced with dishonest personal and business attacks and cyberbullying. That speaks to the man's character. This fact greatly impressed me as I tried to navigate fact from fiction among the stories being told. Troels and Tawnia saw Mario's past as mistakes as the past and didn't want to harm his reputation even when he was telling a misleading version of events that harmed their reputations.

CONFLICTS OF INTEREST: A DEVELOPER THAT OWNS THE FORUM USING IT TO ATTACK COMPETITORS, MARIO & SARAH ATTACKING A COMPETITOR W/O DISCLOSING THEIR AFFILIATION 

The owner of VI-Control, Mike Greene, also own a small sample development business called Realitone, a competitor to 8Dio. A number of developers have told me that they have concerns about the conflict of interest of a developer owning a forum and Mike Greene's propensity to use his forum to attack developers. The attack thread also featured three people who work for 8Dio competitor Impact Soundworks, Mario, Sarah and Andrew Aversa. Greene never pointed out that these are an 8Dio competitor and most forum owners would have good enough ethics to not permit developers attacking competitors on their forum. 

Consider that Greene has spent the rest of 2023 doing hostile melt down rants in literally every 8Dio sales thread I've seen that anyone has made at VI-Control. Here is an except so you can understand that Greene is making a very ugly vendetta attack against 8Dio as a competitor. It's very apparent that Greene has incredible hostility against 8Dio as a business competitor, and the people and lies he uses as props are transparent (it should be noted that Greene refers to 8Dio "sicking" their lawyer on him is also a lie. In fact, that lawyer is the wife of one of Greene's friends and he's friends with her also,  but he's trying to paint a false picture and those facts don't matter to him; additionally, Mike doesn't know Cory and has never had any correspondence with him, I know that directly from Mike:  

Quote

"Their "race to bottom" pricing strategy is bad for the industry. It makes things difficult for those of us who are trying to invest in producing quality products and need to price them accordingly. In my own case, I'm over $160k in recording costs alone for our upcoming choir library. $160k. And that's before editing or advertising or licenses or paying myself for my time. Yet I guarantee someone will post on my Facebook ad that it's overpriced, because they got Requiem Pro for 35 bucks. Guaranteed. In fact, I got one of those yesterday on my Nightfall ad, as someone said it should be $39, because that's what Product X is.

It's not healthy for the industry, and from what I've heard, Troels and Tawnia don't give a flying f*ck. (Before they sic Amanda on me again, they're welcome to correct anything I'm saying. I won't delete anything they post.) They've got a large catalog they can keep drawing from, so it will be a while before that well runs dry.

I might add that a year and a half ago, Tawnia told us (here) that 8dio wouldn't be doing sales like this anymore. But ... did anyone really believe her? I didn't, which is why I bookmarked the post.

So yes, I get really pissed off seeing that 8dio Flash Sale thread day after day, bumped to page one of Latest Posts, cycling blowouts on the same damn products (you know they're being repeated, right?) with the same damn discussions, over and over and over. Making a mockery of the companies I do respect.

F*ck that. And especially f*ck anyone who threatens Cory Pelizzari, who is one of the nicest guys I know."

CORY PELAZZARI 'S STORY: LEVERAGED FOR GREENE'S AND SARAH'S ATTACKS; CLAIMED AS A "FRIEND,"  NEITHER HAVE HAD ANY COMMUNICATION WITH CORY

If you visit Cory Pelazzari's YouTube channel and check out his recent videos, you'll see that he posted that his friend Peter D. was his motivation to become active again. I’m Peter D.  Cory's story is more complex and he’s actually never done a video review of an 8Dio library (he's done videos about 8Dio libraries he owns, comparing some and about a loading issue). When Cory is ready to tell that story, I’ll report on it. But Tawnia is the only ones in this story who knows Cory and they have shared personal details of their lives and though there apparently was some falling out at one period over what I've found clearly appears to be a sock puppet account Cory made on 8Dio's web page and some fake reviews,  the two have been very personal with one another. While Mike Greene repeatedly used Cory in his attacks on 8Dio has never had any direct communications with Cory. Sarah acknowledged to me that she never has never had any communications with Cory, but only came across his video while searching for anyone who's ever had a dispute with 8Dio in order to bolster her own attack.  

ADDRESSING GREENE'S F-BOMB DROPPING MELT DOWN RANTS  THAT 8DIO IS LEADING THE "RACE TO THE BOTTOM"  THAT CONTINUE TO THIS DAY
[Note that since I've written this post, Mike has been editing his posts and removed at least some of his rants on 8Dio's pricing.]

It's like the old tale of Mary Worth. Say her name in a mirror 7 times and she'll appear. But at VI-Control, it's create a thread about an 8Dio  sale and Mike Greene will appear ranting and raving, dropping F-bombs, about 8Dio's deep discounting of their libraries causing a "race to the bottom." There is no ethics problem for a developer like 8Dio having sales with huge discounts and I think those huge discounts reflect a trend in the sample library and plugin world dramatically lowering pricing. I do understand and empathize how a small developer like Greene (in addition to owning VI-Control, Mike is a developer of KONTAKT sample libraries called Realitone) is worried about how his business will have to adjust to a changing marketplace where sample libraries simply don't have as high of a profit margin as they used to. Mike regards 8Dio as leading the charge to lower prices in the industry, and to candid, I'm not sure if 8Dio was the developer that started deep discounting orchestral sample libraries or another developer did, but Mike using his forum to attack a competitor makes clear that the conflict of interest of a developer running a forum may be too great to overcome. 

I empathize with any small developer when disruption occurs in the marketplace and now they have to concern themselves with how to adjust their strategies to attain similar ROI to what they achieved in the past. However, this is a normal part of how technology and competitive forces cause marketplaces to change over time. Of course, these changes are great news for sample library buyers and I think it's clear that sample library prices are likely going to be reduced in the orchestral space due to competitive forces regardless if Greene blames 8Dio or not for these marketplace changes, I think that this change has already started occurring. I've never asked Greene this question, but perhaps part of this dimension of Mikes's hostility towards 8Dio is because his sales are down and he blames 8Dio. In any event, 

As a marketing and branding strategist, I have to note that this is simply how markets change and adapt over time and it is a bit of a Darwinian situation. To use less academic take, look at the impact of Waves deep discounting on the effects plugin industry. Waves has been a disruptor in the effects plugin industry by dramatically reducing the cost of high-quality plugins from the three-figure price point range to $29/39 USD, the price of many of their plugins in their nearly always-on sales. That certainly has presented challenges for small developers competing against them. They're dropping their prices that dramatically isn't ethically problematic. But it does present a challenge for small developers who don't sell their products at the same volume levels as Waves. It puts them in a situation where their plugins may no longer command prices of $200 USD on up for a reverb effect. Consequently, it presents a challenge for a developer who has invested a lot of money and resources into plugins that will not yield a positive ROI if they have to dramatically reduce prices at their historical sales volumes. 

MIKE GREENE'S ATTEMPTS TO CONTACT ME FOLLOWING MY PARTING WAYS WITH VI-CONTROL

After I responded to one of Mike Greene's recent angry, F-bomb dropping meltdown rants against 8Dio made long after the original attack thread, I attempted to tell this story on VI-Control, however, I was still trying to persuade Mario to tell the true story of what happened between him and Troels 13 yrs ago instead of me telling it. Mike began deleting all of my posts and calling me bullying names. He sent me an email telling me what a great guy I am and that maybe he has been unfair to 8Dio and then proceeded to get lost in an attack on Tawnia Knox that I can only describe as somewhere between libel and mean girl behavior.  When I replied cc'ing Tawnia so that she could see what he wrote, Mike was furious and told me that he was republishing a thread he previously deleted where I was libeled and bullied after sharing an experience as a customer with a developer friend of his. Mike then removed my posts from the thread they were originally in and moved them to their own thread out of context titling them PavlovsCats "rehash..." falsely implying that I had rehashed the original attack thread out of the blue when I was replying to his more recent rant against 8Dio that referenced the past attack thread and presented the allegations made that were never proven as facts.  When Mike created this new thread, it didn't contain all of the posts I was responding to, so it's really just a collection of my admittedly, way too long posts that are out of context and and some that were deleted.  His intention is rather obvious, to portray me as writing those posts out of the blue, not in response to his recent attack posts. And he has since edited his attack posts and added an additional post about Tawnia and I, which I cannot respond to because he has since banned me. Granted, I told him that I have no interest in returning to his site, but I find it unfair for him to delete or deceptively edit the posts I am referring to and then add new posts attacking and disparaging me when I cannot respond. I propose the best solution is to delete the entire thread, but he added to it, which knowing Mike, was merely done to bully. 

Mike had recently started a series of emails with me. The basis of the first one was Mike's attempt to manipulate me -- much like I suspect he manipulated others -- that although Tawnia Knox seems like a very nice person, she's a terrible, terrible person and I need to hate her like he does. He acknowledged that perhaps his war on 8Dio was unethical and he's done some wrong things and then went back and engaged in more personal attacks on 8Dio's CEO that can only be described as veering somewhere between mean-girl behavior and libel. When I replied cc'ing 8Dios CEO, Greene was furious with me and began name-calling at me. To wrap this up, I gave up on trying to reason with Mike. I thought I'd tell my story here where the forum moderators are very fair and don't deceptively edit posts or engage in personal attacks or try to humiliate people they've put on their enemies list for various reasons that they find justify their indefensible behavior. 
 

 DISCLOSURES
I have given Mike a minor amount of branding/marketing advice in the past at no charge and Mike sent me an NFR as thanks. I never received anything for my advice to Troels 15 or so years ago. I was contacted by Tawnia Knox, the CEO of 8Dio, after she came across a post of mine in this thread. She didn't know who I was and wanted to know how I knew so much about the story of 8Dio and Mike Greene. We ended up hitting it off and quickly bonded as I too have experienced online bullying at VI Control and with Mike Greene and couldn't stomach watching someone else experience it, especially when I knew that some of the accusations against 8Dio were false. I felt morally compelled to speak up. Since then Greene, Tawnia and I have exchanged emails. Greene's communications to me were defamed Knox and when I  cc'ed her on the reply, Greene lashed out at me calling me ugly bullying names and made a bullying threat to me Tanya was cc'ed on. Greene went from praising my ethics and saying I had a heart of gold to bullying and threatening to publicly humiliate me on his forum within a couple of emails.  I copied other developers in my reply to his threat, letting Greene know that fact. However, I blind cc'ed the developers so that Mike won't retaliate against them too or try to defame me to them like he has done to Tawnia with me.  Yes, this is how ugly some players in this small industry can be, all due to greed and ego. 

Edited by PavlovsCat
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On 10/29/2023 at 8:58 PM, craigb said:

I have no idea what's going on in this thread (and no time to read everything), but I DO like this image and am stealing it for use elsewhere! 🙂

IRL, I'm a business person who's also known as a writer on marketing strategy and business ethics. But I'm a former musician and have advised around 3 dozen sample developers on marketing and branding strategy over the years as an extension of my music hobby,  really. 

I basically just shared the inside story of the attack on 8Dio at VI Control, because Fleer wondered what was going on and I had all of these connections to every player in the story, but it took talking to everyone involved to piece everything together which is nearly a year from when the attack on 8Dio thread happened, but that's when I finally was able to figure it all out. 

My insights come from: (1)  having been the person who gave Mario / Evil Dragon advice on how to work with Troels after he was caught in an appearing to give a comparison with a ToneHammer's sample library without disclosing he worked for the competitor one he stated sounded better in a KVR post back in 2010, (2)  knowing Mike Greene and having numerous discussions and provided the emails and PMs between him and 8Dios CEO (I've given him marketing advice in the past and we've known each other for 2 decades),  (3) having given Troels a single marketing/branding consulting session nearly 15 years ago; (4) having had many conversations with Sarah and Mario on this matter, (5) getting to know 8Dio's CEO, Tawnia Knox and interviews with her and (6) being friends with Cory Pelazzari, the person Greene and Sarah leveraged as their friend in their attacks, although neither had ever known him or had a single communication with him. I'm the friend named Peter D. that Cory credits in a recent YouTube post for motivating him to start making videos again. 

Edited by PavlovsCat
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18 hours ago, craigb said:

I have no idea what's going on in this thread (and no time to read everything), but I DO like this image and am stealing it for use elsewhere! 🙂

Go for it. Just be aware that I didn't create it (I have no idea who did), and it's already floating around on the Internet.

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  • Fleer changed the title to Not a deal - 8dio

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