Mix Thread Count & other tweaks for Apolo x6?

[HOOK]

I'm deep in the process of trying to get a new PC and a new interface running smoothly.  I realize you have to work out some setup bugs when you switch everything up, and I've always been able to figure it out, but this one has got me a little sideways.

I'll admit up front that I haven't gone though the OS and changed all the normal settings you'd change for a DAW.  And I should probably have done that before I started this thread.  MAYBE that's my real problem?

Here's the system:

• Interface:  Apollo x6
• CPU:  Intel i7 12700k
• MB:  ASUS ROG Strix Z690-A
• Memory:  Corsair Vengeance LPX 64GB DDR4 3200 (XMP activated in bios)
• C Drive:  M.2 SSD - T-Force CARDEA Zero Z440 1TB (OS and Cakewalk running here)
• D Drive:  M.2 SSD - SAMSUNG 980 PRO 2TB (all audio streaming from this drive)
• ASUS ThunderboltEX 4 add on card
• Video running on-board Intel UHD Graphics 770

I had stuttering/stopping at ALL buffer settings.  But I gained some ground when I found a thread where someone suggested changing the Mix Thread Count to 6.  I don't even REALLY know what that does, but it stopped most of it. But I'm hoping Apollo users or the Cakewalk Bakers might chime in with the secret sauce settings to getting this thing to play nice with Cakewalk.

I'm testing with a project that was recorded at 24/96 and ran great on my old system with an i7 950.  It's really not an intense project in my eye.  Midi drums, 20 or so audio tracks and a few plugins.  Nothing that was in danger of dropouts on my old system.

Thanks.

[Noel Borthwick]

How many cores does your CPU have?
Setting Mix thread count to 6 tells cakewalk to limit audio engine worker threads to 6 irrespective of how many cores your PC has. This will use less CPU resources for mixing but will also not load balance a project with many tracks as well so you could get overload earlier. A max of 6 tracks or buses will be processed in parallel with that setting.

By default cakewalk uses one thread per core. If it works better after limiting the threads to me thats indicative that the driver is relying on some processing in user mode and being starved. Cakewalk switches all its threads to time critical mode and uses MMCSS by default.  Have you tried disabling MMCSS and plugin load balancing?

 

[HOOK]

Hi, Noel.  Good to see you.  I haven't been on the forums for years...but I'm a Cakewalk user from way back in the mid 90's.

That CPU is 8 Performance and 4 Efficiency cores.

Thank you.  No.  I haven't tried either of the things you mentioned because I've never had to in the past, nor would I without advice.  That's why I'm coming here...hoping to hear possible solutions from folks at your level.  This evening I'll set the Mix Thread Count back to 0 and I'll go through the OS to optimize for a DAW.  If there are still problems after that, I'll see what your tweaks offer.

[HOOK]

7 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

How many cores does your CPU have?
Setting Mix thread count to 6 tells cakewalk to limit audio engine worker threads to 6 irrespective of how many cores your PC has. This will use less CPU resources for mixing but will also not load balance a project with many tracks as well so you could get overload earlier. A max of 6 tracks or buses will be processed in parallel with that setting.

By default cakewalk uses one thread per core. If it works better after limiting the threads to me thats indicative that the driver is relying on some processing in user mode and being starved. Cakewalk switches all its threads to time critical mode and uses MMCSS by default.  Have you tried disabling MMCSS and plugin load balancing?

 

Noel.  Zero'd out the Mix Thread Count and I optimized everything in the OS that I normally would.  Didn't help.

Disabled MMCSS and Plugin Load Balancing.  Playback was smooth.

Reactivated Plugin Load Balancing.  Still good to go all the way down to 128 buffer with some pretty mean plugins.

Good stuff, Sir.  Any advice on other things this tells you I might need to do to further advance this connection?  If not...I'll make new music to see how it handles input.

[Xoo]

My guess is the Apollo is another interface that sets MMCSS in the (ASIO) driver - might be a setting in its control panel you can change?

[HOOK]

13 minutes ago, Kevin Perry said:

My guess is the Apollo is another interface that sets MMCSS in the (ASIO) driver - might be a setting in its control panel you can change?

I think shutting it off in Cakewalk did the trick.  I hate to say we're good too soon...but I think we're good.  🤣

[Noel Borthwick]

If turning off MMCSS in Cakewalk fixed the glitches this is most likely a driver bug. We’ve seen drivers that don’t properly error handle cases where MMCSS is already enabled by the host. A similar issue happened with the Lynx driver which we reported to them and was subsequently fixed. Drivers should handle the host setting threads to MMCSS.

[HOOK]

Thanks again, Noel.  I'll double check that I'm using a current driver, and I'll be running it hard this weekend on a new project to see if it's as solid as it is on playback of previous projects.

[Traveler]

Hey, chiming in with my system similar to Hook's... also a fairly new build.

I recently had a windows update that threw everything out of whack. I ended up removing my NVIDIA graphics card and that helped a lot. But the biggest change was turning off MMCSS this morning. The CPU meter for the audio engine is now low and steady, exactly what I expected from the i9-12900K.

I'll see how everything runs throughout the day before I consider reinstalling the NVIDIA card (its primarily for video projects).

Thanks Hook and Noel! I never considered MMCSS as an option to try.

My system:

• Motherboard – ASUS ROG Maximus Z690 Hero
• Processor – 3.2GHz (5.2 Turbo) sixteen-core 12th-generation Intel Core i9-12900K
• RAM – DDR5 5600MHz, Kingston Fury Beast 64GB (2 x 32GB)
• M.2_1 – Samsung 980 PRO SSD 1TB PCIe NVMe Gen 4 M.2 SSD (2280)
• M.2_2 – Samsung 970 EVO Plus 2TB PCIe NVMe Gen 3 M.2 SSD (2280)
• M.2_3 – Samsung 980 PRO SSD 2TB PCIe NVMe Gen 4 M.2 SSD (2280)
• SATA – Western Digital Black 2TB 7200 RPM 3.5” HDD (for backup)
• Graphics Card – NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Ti (currently removed from the system and using onboard graphics)
• Power Supply – Corsair RM1000x
• Operating System – Windows 11 Pro
• Audio Interface – UA Apollo (Silver) with Thunderbolt 3 Option Card

[HOOK]

Is that you, Reggie?  🤣

[Noel Borthwick]

@HOOK and @Traveler we just posted an EA build that has a new option to enable MMCSS only for ASIO drivers (off by default)
This allows you to enable MMCSS mode in Cakewalk but leave it disabled for the ASIO driver. 
Can you please try this on your machine and report back. I.e Turn on MMCSS but disable the ASIO MMCSS option.

 

 

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, HOOK said:

Is that you, Reggie?  🤣

Yep! This is me bro!! 😂

[HOOK]

You might have to clarify this install.  Is this install replacing my current version and all of the settings?  Because I started the install and aborted.  I just got this sucker working.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by HOOK

[Traveler]

50 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

@HOOK and @Traveler we just posted an EA build that has a new option to enable MMCSS only for ASIO drivers (off by default)
This allows you to enable MMCSS mode in Cakewalk but leave it disabled for the ASIO driver. 
Can you please try this on your machine and report back. I.e Turn on MMCSS but disable the ASIO MMCSS option.

 

 

Hi Noel, I installed the EA build and tried the new MMCSS options.

Turning on "Use MMCSS" and disabling "Enable MMCSS for ASIO Driver" didn't work for me. Cakewalk immediately reverted to the hiccups and stutters. The Performance module's Audio Processing meter keeps pausing every few seconds.

Turning on "Use MMCSS" and turning on "Enable MMCSS for ASIO Driver" also didn't work. Cakewalk continued to have hiccups and stutters. The Performance module's Audio Processing meter keeps pausing every few seconds.

Turning off "Use MMCSS" and turning off "Enable MMCSS for ASIO Driver" works great! No hiccups or stutters. The Audio Processing meter is smooth with no lags.

I'm using UAD software Version 10.1.1 for my Apollo... just in case this matters.

Cheers,

Reggie

[Noel Borthwick]

Thanks for doing the test. You should report this to UA support. This looks like some weird incompatibility with their driver when the app is running its threads in MMCSS mode. 
Other devices don't have this issue and as per this test we aren't changing the driver's configuration in any way. If they have questions, they can contact me.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Noel Borthwick said:

Thanks for doing the test. You should report this to UA support. This looks like some weird incompatibility with their driver when the app is running its threads in MMCSS mode. 
Other devices don't have this issue and as per this test we aren't changing the driver's configuration in any way. If they have questions, they can contact me.

Thanks Noel, I'll report this to UA tonight. I'll keep you updated on their response.

[Noel Borthwick]

@Traveler can you do a test. Download process explorer from here:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/process-explorer

Then launch Cakewalk with MMCSS off. 
Find cakewalk.exe in process explorer and right click and choose properties 
From the window that opens switch to the threads tab. 
Try and find the Apollo ASIO driver thread in the list of threads. The thread will have the driver name in it hopefully.
Send a sreenshot showing the ASIO thread details.

[Traveler]

On 11/2/2022 at 8:41 PM, Noel Borthwick said:

@Traveler can you do a test. Download process explorer from here:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/process-explorer

Then launch Cakewalk with MMCSS off. 
Find cakewalk.exe in process explorer and right click and choose properties 
From the window that opens switch to the threads tab. 
Try and find the Apollo ASIO driver thread in the list of threads. The thread will have the driver name in it hopefully.
Send a sreenshot showing the ASIO thread details.

Hi Noel, I just arrived in Singapore and my DAW is in the US. I won't be able to try this until in return in a few weeks.

HOOK has a similar problem on a similar system. He may be able to help with some screenshots.

[HOOK]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

HOOK has a similar problem on a similar system. He may be able to help with some screenshots.

@Noel Borthwick - I'd be happy to run this test as long as you don't require my installing the EA build. 

[Noel Borthwick]

@HOOK you can try it in whatever build you have thanks.
The 2022.11 EA build is quite solid however and we'll be releasing in a few days so there is no risk to try it. It also has a readout for the audio thread priority in the performance bar tooltip, which makes it easier to check what the driver is doing.