Cint MMedia Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 (edited) We load a large project, 24 miditracks, 4 audiotracks (vocals and effects). Multiple instances of VSTi's on the miditracks, among them Halion Sonic 3, Magix Independence, Korg Triton Collection, Cakewalk SI drums. Cakewalk VST-efx on a couple of tracks. After loading - and no start - the Late Buffers counting begins. Wait 15 minutes and we read 400 or more late buffers. Playing the project, Late Buffers behaves in the same way. Sometimes Cakewalk's audio engine stops, sometimes nothing happens, sometimes Cakewalk crashes. Experimenting with buffer settings in Cakewalk and/or Asio Panel does not solve the problem. By removing some tracks, one by one, at a certain point the Late Buffer counting stops. Playing the left-overs of the project: zero Late Buffers. All plug-ins, VSTi's and VST's, are 64 bit. System (April 2021): Windows 10 Pro, ASUS Rog mainboard, Intel i9-9900 (not overclocked), 32 GB Ram, 2x SSD 1TB, Motu 624 audio interface on ASUS Thunderbolt EX3, Motu Asio driver. No reports of devices not working properly or missing/outdated drivers. Loaded the project in our second system: same behaviour. System (September 2021): Windows 10 Pro, ASUS Rog mainboard, Intel i9-11900F (not overclocked), 32 GB Ram, 2x SSD 1TB, Behringer UMC404HD audio interface on USB. Behringer Asio driver. Loaded another large project, following same procedure as with the other project: same behaviour. The tests on our second system rule out that there is a problem with the computer system(s) and connected devices. So it seems that Cakewalk by Bandlab is not capable of handling large projects with multiple instances of VSTi's and VST's, which we find hard to believe. Though we are longtime satisfied and experienced users of Cakewalk, there might be a chance we overlook something in the Preference Settings, but that's also hard to believe. Anyone an idea? Edited October 24, 2022 by Cint MMedia Solved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azslow3 Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Late buffers means some processing does not manage to finish in time. Try to increase the buffer size (and so the time available to process it) till the problem disappear. While that also increase the amount of data to process in one buffer, some plug-ins do quite some "extra" work per buffer. Also longer available time helps with the system latency (f.e if your system is blocked for 5ms, nothing can be processed during that time, even so required processing may be takes just 1ms). High specification of computer system by itself just means theoretical possibility to run more plug-ins when optimized for audio. "Out of the box" any processor under Windows can't run at low latency at all, defaults settings are for power saving since that is what most consumers want. I mean "rule out" a problem with computer is only possible in case the computer is from Studiocat (or comparable manufacturer), after letting support check everything is fine. Otherwise even 100 top gaming PCs which can't run with 1ms latency is not an indication the problem is not computer related 🙄 Multi-threaded processing/load balancing/oversampling/etc. Cakewalk settings obviously influence what can run smoothly. As well as the rest of the system and drivers with all there settings and other currently running programs as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teegarden Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 (edited) You might want to check processor scheduling in CbB settings. Here's a topic where you can find several tips if you scroll through it: how to assign cakewalk to use all the cpu cores Use to find what's slowing down your pc: latencymon Freeze tracks might also help you save some resources In case you haven't tuned your pc yet here are some links: Unofficial Windows 10 Audio Workstation build and tweak guide PC Optimization Guide for Windows 10 How to set up and optimize a Digital Audio Workstation Make sure you have the latest runtimes: all in one runtimes You can stop several processes to speed up the PC Here are some sites that explain which ones how they effect your PC: 12 windows 10 services that are safe to disable black vipers windows 10 service configurations windows 10 unnecessary services you can disable safely Check carefully what they do, some you might need depending on what you do with your PC. Here are a few some (see Black Viper for many more): Antivirus (if you disable internet connection) ctfmon.exe OneDrive.exe LockApp.exe NewsAndInterests.exe GrooveMusic.exe Windows Mobile Hotspot Service Print Spooler Certificate Propagation Service Universal Telemetry Client (UTC) Windows Biometric Service Broadcast DVR Server Windows 10 OneSyncSvc Windows Update Service Windows 10 Security Center Windows Search Fax Service Downloaded Maps Manager Bluetooth (if you mainly use cabled mouse and keyboard - additional advantage: they might reduce noise - less inference) WIFI Remote Desktop Remote Registry Touch Keyboard and Handwriting Panel Service Windows Insider Service Windows Error Reporting I use a simple tool to quickly stop undesired processes when I only want to use my DAW on my PC (that I usually use for many other tasks): ProcessKO I never measured the effect on the PC but this also let's you safely stop several processes in Windows (might need to run it again after a new Windows update): shutup10 Make sure your HD's/SSDs have enough spare room Edited October 20, 2022 by Teegarden additional info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will. Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 6 hours ago, Cint MMedia said: We load a large project, 24 miditracks, 4 audiotracks (vocals and effects). Multiple instances of VSTi's on the miditracks, among them Halion Sonic 3, Magix Independence, Korg Triton Collection, Cakewalk SI drums. Cakewalk VST-efx on a couple of tracks. After loading - and no start - the Late Buffers counting begins. Wait 15 minutes and we read 400 or more late buffers. Playing the project, Late Buffers behaves in the same way. Sometimes Cakewalk's audio engine stops, sometimes nothing happens, sometimes Cakewalk crashes. Experimenting with buffer settings in Cakewalk and/or Asio Panel does not solve the problem. By removing some tracks, one by one, at a certain point the Late Buffer counting stops. Playing the left-overs of the project: zero Late Buffers. All plug-ins, VSTi's and VST's, are 64 bit. System (April 2021): Windows 10 Pro, ASUS Rog mainboard, Intel i9-9900 (not overclocked), 32 GB Ram, 2x SSD 1TB, Motu 624 audio interface on ASUS Thunderbolt EX3, Motu Asio driver. No reports of devices not working properly or missing/outdated drivers. Loaded the project in our second system: same behaviour. System (September 2021): Windows 10 Pro, ASUS Rog mainboard, Intel i9-11900F (not overclocked), 32 GB Ram, 2x SSD 1TB, Behringer UMC404HD audio interface on USB. Behringer Asio driver. Loaded another large project, following same procedure as with the other project: same behaviour. The tests on our second system rule out that there is a problem with the computer system(s) and connected devices. So it seems that Cakewalk by Bandlab is not capable of handling large projects with multiple instances of VSTi's and VST's, which we find hard to believe. Though we are longtime satisfied and experienced users of Cakewalk, there might be a chance we overlook something in the Preference Settings, but that's also hard to believe. Anyone an idea? Its best to attach the crash dump file. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitflipper Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Because you have a number of VSTis you might try freezing them one by one until the errors stop. You'll likely discover that it's a particular VSTi that's not able to keep up, or a particular library in a sampler. That, or use the real-time bounce option when exporting. I've had synths in the past that were only reliable with a slow bounce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Borthwick Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 It has nothing to do with cakewalk not being able to process large projects tracks. 24 tracks in itself, is tiny. People are running literally projects containing 500 tracks. Even on a powerful machine if you put a single plugin that is expensive on a track, it can block processing for longer than the allotted time and lead to late buffers. This is because a buffer will be delayed even if a single tracks processing is late. Raise your buffer size and it will reduce or eliminate late buffers. Plugin load balancing can also help. Like others said if removing a particular track or tracks stops the late buffers, then something in that track is taking longer to process than the buffer quantum. If it takes longer than the time allotted playback will continue but you might hear clicks from your sound device because it is being starved. The late buffers is just a metric to help users diagnose why glitches occur. Try deleting the plugins in the tracks to diagnose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cint MMedia Posted October 21, 2022 Author Share Posted October 21, 2022 Good morning (it is in The Netherlands) to all of you advising what to do. Thanks a lot for that, very valuable. It will take time to try out and find out. So I will come back next week. Beste regards, Han - Cint MMedia/Amsterdam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cint MMedia Posted October 21, 2022 Author Share Posted October 21, 2022 No, Dear All, it's not yet next week here in the Netherlands. We took the time, step by step implementing the main part of all your advices and suggestions. A fine result: no more Late Buffers. Moreover we finally went for better latency (till this morning 11.3 ms): now at 128 buffer size > 5,1 ms. It became a combination of 1. adjustments and fine tuning in Windows and the computer system, 2. in Cakewalk. Eliminating a VSTi, replaced by another one, helped a lot from the start. Many thanks to you all for your interest, time and knowledge. Best regards, Han - Cint MMedia, Amsterdam NB. Our small group of musicians, under the name of Cint MMedia, composes and produces music/songs for musicals, documentaries and sometimes, by exception and on request, songs for a local artist. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will. Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 (edited) The title sounds like an Ad. Holy Waffles! 😓 Phew! I was ready to buy something. 😐 Edited October 21, 2022 by Will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Vogel Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 I'm sure all those who helped you, appreciate your polite and respectful attitude. Just do one more thing. That is, go back to your first entry, select Edit for your Post and update your thread title to include [SOLVED]. That will inform others appropriately. Thanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cint MMedia Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 Thanks, Michael Vogel, for your tip. I've done so. Sorry, dear Will, we do not sell things. We are not commercially involved in the music industry. We - retired from other jobs, now only musicians - give our productions away for free. Revenues - unavoidable authors- and copyrights - are donated to a charity, the Marijke Foundation, of which I am the founder. The work of the foundation can help to prevent people around the world - most of them women - from becoming more seriously ill because of untreated progression of two rare diseases that are very hard to diagnose. I am aware this may not be the proper place to supply a link to the work of the Marijke Foundation, but nevetheless: www.symptomatrix-eng.eu Thanks for your attention and to all: best regards, Han 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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