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Help With A '77 Gibson LP


Grem

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I come to this forum because I know a lot of people here are very knowledgeable about many things associated with music.

I need help.

I have a '77 Gibson LP that DOES NOT have a glued in neck. The neck is connected with a dovetail joint. How I got it was total luck. No kidding. ( I will tell the story if anyone wants the details)

 

Anyway, many years ago I knew how to take the neck off. It's a process of holding the neck with the left hand a certain way and hitting the top of the bout (by the pickup selector switch) above the neck. It has to be done a very certain way, and I have forgotten how to do it.

When I bought this guitar, I had no idea there was such a thing as a glued on neck, a bolt on neck, or a dovetail joint neck. Knowing what I know now I wish I had taken pictures of it when it was appart, but I didn't. Now when I tell someone about this guitar, they look at me like I was an idiot.

 

The best thing that I can think of to prove what I am saying is true, is to find someone who knows how to take the neck off and get pics of it. I haven't been able to find anyone that can do this. Hell, I don't even know if people believe me!! Knowing what I know today, I can't blame them.

My other thought was to x-ray the neck and see if that would reveal any details that would prove it's a dovetail joint.

Maybe a MRI scan?

Are there companies out there that do this?

Any help or advice would be welcomed and appreciated. 

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23 minutes ago, Grem said:

I will tell the story if anyone wants the details

I, for one, would love to hear it. This is news to me, and I’m a bit more than a “casual” LP fan. 
Pictures?

Maybe the neck pu needs to be pulled to expose the joint?

The long neck tennon is hidden by the neck pu. 
t

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2 minutes ago, DeeringAmps said:

I, for one, would love to hear it.

Gotta go cut grass before it rains. But I will tell the tale. You asked!! : )

 

2 minutes ago, DeeringAmps said:

This is news to me, and I’m a bit more than a “casual” LP fan. 

I have asked every guitar luthier I have been too and they all gave me that 'look'!!

 

3 minutes ago, DeeringAmps said:

Pictures?

Yes I will post some later after the grass gets cut.

 

4 minutes ago, DeeringAmps said:

Maybe the neck pu needs to be pulled to expose the joint?

No long neck tendon. It is not shaped like any LP set-in neck that I have seen. I have pics of the neck pu cavity I will post.

 

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6 hours ago, DeeringAmps said:

would love to hear it.

When I had my first real good paying job (grain surveyor), the first paycheck I got I called the music store (Rock World Music on Veterans Blvd, Metairie La.)  and asked if they had a natural finished LP. They said yes, that it was little over $600. Being I was at work at the time, I gave the cash to a friend and sent him to go pick it up. He brought me back a natural blonde finished LP Standard. I got it sight unseen and never even played it before I bought it!!

I knew little to nothing about maintaining a guitar back then, so I brought it back to Rock World Music to get the strings changed and a basic setup. I was looking in the store (I was eyeing a pedal that they said sounded great, a Roland Chorus, that I didn't buy, big regret!!) at other guitars and stuff  when the guitar tech came on the floor, found me, and told me to follow him in the work room. When I got back there he asked me "Did you know your guitar did this?" and he showed me the neck in one hand and the body laying on the bench. I told him no I didn't know it did that. Looking back on it years later I realized he was trying to tell me something. But in my ignorance I just didn't get it.

So he demonstrated to me how to take it apart, and I did it right there in front of him. He finished with the setup and I took the guitar home. Still not knowing what I had, I would take the guitar apart and clean it all around the neck real good. After a while I realized that if I keep taking this neck off the guitar it would eventually wear the dovetail joint out. So I quit doing it. Never thought much about it at all after that.

Got into a band where the other guitar player had previously worked in a guitar repair shop. And he was talking about how many times he had put irons and a towel on the back of a LP to get the neck off. When I told him my neck wasn't glued, it was a dovetail joint, he said I was nuts. All LP have a glued in neck he insisted.

Some years later I called Gibson (because back then they had a lifetime warranty) to see about getting my neck glued in. (Still had no clue whatsoever!!!) The guy that answered the phone talked to me a good while because I told him the story of the guitar (that conversation is another story in itself!!). He told me that it was very rare to have a dovetail joint on a LP, but back in those days (the Norlin era) they were trying different things so it wasn't beyond the realm of possibilities. I wish I would have gotten his name, but like I keep pointing out, I just had no clue!!

Then the internet explodes and I figure now I can find somebody who will know how to take this thing apart and I can get pics of it to prove what I am saying is true. I haven't had much luck. Hung around forums, looked high and low, but no one has any idea what I am talking about.

Here is what I think happened with me ending up with this guitar. It was a special order for someone in the New Orleans area. When my friend walked in the store to pick up my "Natural Finish LP" a unknowing salesman sold him that special order guitar. When I brought the guitar in to get the setup, the guitar tech knew that guitar. That's how he knew the neck came off like that. There is no other way to tell. Unless you knew it was a special guitar in the first place. And when he showed me that it came apart, he was trying to tell this long haired dufus what he really had. I just had no clue at all!

And that's the story.  

I have to go to my other computer to post the pics I have.

Edited by Grem
Clarity and spelling
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12 minutes ago, DeeringAmps said:

Norlin, the wonders never cease…

You said a lot right there!! From what I learned there was a lot of 'experimenting' going on at that time.

 

Here are some other pics

Look at the Volume/Tone Pot cavity. You can see that the pots look like they mounted on a metal plate. Haven't seen nothing like this around any other LP pics I have been able to find.  

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35 minutes ago, Sheens said:

was gonna ask 'why remove neck?'  

 can only be a faulty trustrod.... so not gonna ask.

 

 

Actually,  that's a very pertinent question. 

At the time the guitar tech brought me in the back to see my LP apart, this question never occurred to me. However, after becoming more educated on the subject, that was the exact question I asked; Why did he take that neck off? How did he know it came apart? How did he know how to take it apart?

As I said in the story,  I kept taking it apart when I was doing a good cleaning but stopped after a while because of it wearing the joint out. 

But again, why did the tech take it apart and show it to me? I think he was trying to tell me I had something special.  And he also knew I had no clue what I had!!

But I know now!!

Edited by Grem
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The pot codes indicate CTS pots, made the 18th week of 1977. 
The reasoning behind a non-glued dovetail is certainly a mystery. As the instrument ages one would assume the joint would loosen not tighten. I see baps has joined the conversation. 
t

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The 2 places I can think of where you may be able to get the most direct answer online would be these 2 Forums ...

#1 https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php

The Les Paul forum has a wealth of people that live and breath Les Paul's ...the knowledge over there is off the charts ... I lurk so I'm not a member ...

I have heard they are a tough crew meaning they are very strict about membership ...they may even have a probation period before you can post.

I don't know if you have the desire to jump through the hoops but I'm sure you can find an answer over there for sure ...

#2 https://forum.gibson.com/

I listed this one as # 2 . Yet it may be the first place to try only because the forum seems low key .I am a  member over there .

I have asked questions about my Gibson Historic Les Paul and people that actually worked for Gibson got back to me and answered all my questions satisfactorily and in great detail ...

Hope this may help you,

Kenny

 

Edited by kennywtelejazz
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Okay, I'm by no means a "luthier," but I've built a few part-o-casters and done refrets and done setups and renovations on friends' guitars. I'm also an amateur woodworker who has gotten as far as milling my own window sash and making a table saw finger-joint jig so that I could build a Bassman copy 2-12 cab out of fir.

At first I was WTF? about your dovetail joint. But then I'm also familiar with the weirdness that went on at Gibson in the Norlin years. Not too long ago, I worked on a Gibson Sonex for a friend. I only knew of the foam core ones, but then I learned about this mode;, body made of MDF(!), with a bolt-on neck. Japanese humbuckers with coil split switches. Someone had botched the electronics in it, so I looked up a schematic and got it all set back to stock, and set it up correctly. Replaced the potmetal bridge with a Tone Pros. Turned out to be a really nice sounding and playing axe.

So anything is possible. Selling what was probably a prototype? Sure, why not. It's a finished instrument, isn't it?

I can understand the thinking behind trying this construction method. A properly cut dovetail, as opposed to the standard tenon joint, will inherently be aligned without as much need for human intervention. And they're strong. They probably got a big-a55 dovetail shaper bit, made a jig to hold the body in alignment and let it rip. At which point they also said to heck with even gluing it, the string tension will hold it in, and we can spray the finish on the bodies and necks separately. They were probably trying everything to automate the process as much as possible. If all the workers have to do is feed parts into a machine and then stick them together, that would in theory eliminate (expensive) skilled labor. Who even cares about skilled labor? This is the same era and industry that saw legendary Fender neck shaper Tadeo Gomez hired back by Fender's parent company, CBS, as a janitor.  At least they kept Abigail Ybarra at the pickup winder. She could have wound up in the lunch room or something.

What I see in your photo suggests that the way to get it apart is to take the strings off and hold the body under one arm (your left if you're a righty) and tug the neck straight away from the body with your other hand. There's a telltale line at the heel where there's a gap in the finish. I'm pretty sure the idea was that the string tension holds the neck snug in the pocket. And from what I know of dovetail joints (yeah), there would be no other way for it to come apart.

Since you're having a hard time pulling it apart, that suggests that it's in there nice and snug, which is good. Were it my guitar, I would be sorely tempted to put some Titebond in there before putting it back together, because I have the idea that the it would "sing" better. It's a truism that the better the coupling between neck and body, the more a guitar will sustain. Sustain ain't the be-all and end-all of tone, though. Glue is a one-way street with this joint (getting it back apart would require the services of a pro), and if it plays and sounds like you want it to, it ain't broke. Many highly-regarded guitar makers, including Martin, use or used dovetail neck joints. This is the first one I've heard of that wasn't also glued. 😳

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2 hours ago, kennywtelejazz said:

The Les Paul forum has a wealth of people that live and breath Les Paul's ...the knowledge over there is off the charts

Agreed. I went to them. There were some guys that worked in the plant that are/were members. They said the same thing the guy on the phone did: Anything is possible!!

Thanks for the Gibson forum. Never been there. Will ask over there.

 

Edited by Grem
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4 hours ago, Grem said:

 

Actually,  that's a very pertinent question. 

At the time the guitar tech brought me in the back to see my LP apart, this question never occurred to me. However, after becoming more educated on the subject, that was the exact question I asked; Why did he take that neck off? How did he know it came apart? How did he know how to take it apart?

As I said in the story,  I kept taking it apart when I was doing a good cleaning but stopped after a while because of it wearing the joint out. 

But again, why did the tech take it apart and show it to me? I think he was trying to tell me I had something special.  And he also knew I had no clue what I had!!

But I know now!!

As in playing or collecting?

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