Audio Snap question

[jono grant]

Hi, question regarding Audio Snap:

I have a live drum kit, I turn off any effects and bounce all the tracks to a single track, I apply audio snap to that mixdown in order to add the clip to the pool and then I can apply those markers to my individual drums tracks. 

In the attached image, you'll see that audio snap will sometimes add double transients to a single drum hit. I have to go through and delete the unwanted transient markers.

My question is, why does it do that?

and also, which marker is best to delete? The one sitting right on the drum hit or the doubled marker that is either before or after the hit.

This is such a powerful feature, it would be great if it was more consistent in tracking.

Any info appreciated, thanks!

Jono

[Byron Dickens]

I have always had better luck splitting clips up and moving things around manually.

[jono grant]

23 minutes ago, bdickens said:

I have always had better luck splitting clips up and moving things around manually.

For sure! Audio snap is getting better though! Sometimes useful for a fast project.

[marcL]

Some time ago I thought also that it should be possible to detect such transients properly! 😆

But my experience in the last years showed me that transient detection is an extremely difficult thing (in particular for non-rhythmic stuff). Yet there is not only one correct way to set transients, in general. Thus, other programs like Reaper, Samplitude, Melodyne, ... have their difficulties, too (they are also not perfect)!

IMHO there is no way to get around manual correction when using transients. If you zoom in heavily (I always do when using transients) you recognize more obviously that a lot of manual work is required! 😉

Edited May 27, 2022 by marled

[marcL]

2 hours ago, bdickens said:

I have always had better luck splitting clips up and moving things around manually.

Sometimes me too! But in other situations, especially for non-drums instruments I prefer using AudioSnap, because it does stretch the audio between transients.

1 hour ago, jono grant said:

For sure! Audio snap is getting better though! Sometimes useful for a fast project.

If you want a proper result, then the speed is not that much better IMO! But the difference is the stretching. 

[Lord Tim]

The MultiResolution algorithm is definitely the most accurate when it comes to detecting transients, much better than the original 2 algorithms, but AS in general still struggles when there's any kind of noise between hits, and will often see notes without a definite start as having different transient points and will put multiple markers in.

Once you clean up the noise between hits, AS is excellent once you learn the way around how it wants you to work. But that's where I think AS needs the most improvement in the next iteration: better control over what it "hears" - high and low pass filters, gating, masking decay on each hit... if it gets cleaned up like that before it hits the detector, you'd rarely run into these kind of issues if you configure it well, I think.

I've certainly put my laundry list of things I'd like to see in the next version in, and I'd say this is on a very long to-do list somewhere!

[RexRed]

 I would listen to it and pick the transient marker that sounds like it is on the beat, move the transient marker to where it seems logical that is should go, move the marker by dragging the diamond in the center of the marker and turn snap off when you need to move a transient marker. Use a metronome to audibly listen to verify.

I use Audio Snap only to get things roughly lined up like a live performance (to stretch and shrink large sections) and I add only enough markers, as few as possible.

Then I use Melodyne to align each beat more precisely.

Audio Snap is to get it roughly in place and Melodyne is to align each beat.

Edited May 28, 2022 by RexRed

[kevro2000]

Hi, I recall CREATIVE SAUCE had a tutorial video discussing this topic. Basically, its "expected" the doubled snap bars will require some time to delete. I can't remember which video it was, but probably one of the 2 -4 at the top of this youtube list.

https://www.youtube.com/c/CreativeSauce/search?query=transients

 

[Lord Tim]

I avoid the double transients (for the most part) by using the technique I mentioned in a post on the old forum: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3388204  (Scroll down to my highlighted post)

This is way out of date now - there's been a LOT of work done on the algorithm since then (was that post really made 6 years ago? 😐) but the EQ/gate/use dummy tracks idea still works really well.

But yeah, sometimes it's just easier to go through and put in markers manually on problem tracks, then copy those to the pool across all of the other tracks to maintain phase relationships. I see this like using Rotoscoping inside After Effects (for all of you VFX nerds out there!) - when RotoBrush works, it REALLY works and saves you a ton of time, but sometimes you just have a video that you need to get in with the pen tool and draw your masks in manually, it's simply not worth the effort trying to clean up a bad detection. Pick and choose your battles with Audiosnap for sure.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Lord Tim

[jono grant]

On 5/27/2022 at 7:55 PM, Lord Tim said:

The MultiResolution algorithm is definitely the most accurate when it comes to detecting transients, much better than the original 2 algorithms, but AS in general still struggles when there's any kind of noise between hits, and will often see notes without a definite start as having different transient points and will put multiple markers in.

Once you clean up the noise between hits, AS is excellent once you learn the way around how it wants you to work. But that's where I think AS needs the most improvement in the next iteration: better control over what it "hears" - high and low pass filters, gating, masking decay on each hit... if it gets cleaned up like that before it hits the detector, you'd rarely run into these kind of issues if you configure it well, I think.

I've certainly put my laundry list of things I'd like to see in the next version in, and I'd say this is on a very long to-do list somewhere!

I think the take away here is to gate the heck out of everything before creating a mix to add to the clip pool. And yes, the Radius mix algo is best for this. 

[jono grant]

On 5/27/2022 at 5:40 PM, marled said:

Sometimes me too! But in other situations, especially for non-drums instruments I prefer using AudioSnap, because it does stretch the audio between transients.

If you want a proper result, then the speed is not that much better IMO! But the difference is the stretching. 

Ya, the manual method is best but you end up spending time filling gaps that AS would just stretch...