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Intel's 12th-generation Core i9 Processor ​ ​Faster Than Apple Silicon M1 Max

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1 minute ago, Hugh Mann said:

yeah internet stuff, text, and emails can easily be misinterpreted.  I know ive been misinterpreted quite a bit here.  im really just a wisenheimer who loves music tech stuff.  the shunning thing is a joke.  if you know the show, its pretty funny.  but yeah.  too much negativity as it is.  clean slate?  just agree Macs are far superior than anything else and we'll be fine  😆.  

Well, I won't agree to that. But I will make this promise to you. I won't respond to you on this topic again in this or in future threads. However, I do invite you to participate in other topics. Since you really are someone who loves music tech, I am sure you have much more to offer than just perspectives on Apple hardware and software. 

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29 minutes ago, Doug Rintoul said:

Well, I won't agree to that. But I will make this promise to you. I won't respond to you on this topic again in this or in future threads. However, I do invite you to participate in other topics. Since you really are someone who loves music tech, I am sure you have much more to offer than just perspectives on Apple hardware and software. 

that's really nice.  you are a good man.  I appreciate all your intentions.  thanks.  :) and btw,  respond to me if you want. I like a good debate. And im sure there will be another one of these Mac vs pc things springing up.  they always do pop up.  its like a weed, lol.   its just the personal stuff that was getting annoying to me.  or the way I was misinterpreting your intentions, at least.  ☮️

Edited by Hugh Mann

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Wow! The last time an apple caused this much commotion involved Adam, Eve and a Snake. 🙆🏻‍♂️

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1 hour ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Wow! The last time an apple caused this much commotion involved Adam, Eve and a Snake. 🙆🏻‍♂️

And very few gets that the apple logo wasn't a mistakes , providing what you don't need , as they don't answer the need they create and manage it ....not comon from my mouth but their own team ....

As for the debate , like Reid said .....

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12 hours ago, Reid Rosefelt said:

The war is over and the PC won.  Next.

 

Would need actual data on that. In my experience, most (professional) creative types are still mostly on Mac. It's rare for me to work with a graphic designer or tv editor or music producer that is on PC these days. That's across a dozen cities, many many studios and people constantly coming in and out of offices on various projects.

What I see the most are Mac Book Pros as the main machine. I see people working on desktops less and less. This is going to become more so with the M1 Max MPBs. 

FYI - I'm a Windows user, and am most definitely in the minority. I could see Windows being more popular with hobbyists / amateurs. There's probably 100 million hobby creatives using Windows machines. But for people with creative careers, I mostly see Mac.

Edited by Carl Ewing

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4 hours ago, Carl Ewing said:

Most (professional) creative types are still mostly on Mac. It's rare for me to work with a graphic designer or tv editor or music producer that is on PC these days. That's across a dozen cities, many many studios and people constantly coming in and out of offices on various projects.

 

This is true. Had the same argument in another thread about this. 

I too moved over to Mac in 2020. Not because I wanted to, but because of business. Where many was unfortunate to grow through the pandemic, I was fortunate to have and the demands from business partners i gained (labels) and few other collaborations required me to have a MACINTOSH and Logic pro and Pro tools. So as stated above, i wisely invested in one, wasnt cheap, but today im not disappointed (Business wise.) The sad reality and truth is that most major international studio worldwide operate in mac. 

I still prefer Windows systems for all my personal home computers. I don't think i will ever buy a macbook for personal usage. 

Edited by Will_Kaydo

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31 minutes ago, Will_Kaydo said:

This is true. Had the same argument in another thread about this. 

I too moved over to Mac in 2020. Not because I wanted to, but because of business. Where many was unfortunate to grow through the pandemic, I was fortunate to have and the demands from business partners i gained (labels) and few other collaborations required me to have a MACINTOSH and Logic pro and Pro tools. So as stated above, i wisely invested in one, wasnt cheap, but today im not disappointed (Business wise.) The sad reality and truth is that most major international studio worldwide operate in mac. 

I still prefer Windows systems for all my personal home computers. I don't think i will ever buy a macbook for personal usage. 

Ya agreed. The only exception for this is gaming, since most game development is on PC. But illustrators / graphics designers are usually on Mac, just the development is PC side. I will likely move to MBP this year, as I'm getting tired of problems on laptop PC (my 8th laptop) while my colleagues breeze along without having to tweak a single thing on 6 year old models. Desktop will always be Windows though. Will never go to the dark side. Although I am somewhat curious how those new MBP's hold up against my desktop system. If it can handle as much as people say - and some of those specs are insane - I may try experimenting with it as main studio system. I just don't believe it's that powerful until I see it myself.

Edited by Carl Ewing

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Both have uses in music production, but Windows operating system (be it on the PC or on the Mac hardware) is better for music production if over 96kHz sampling rate is desired. This is due to the sample buffer capped @ 2048 samples on the Mac OSX operating system.

Personally I use Mac for composing / arranging @ 96kHz 64 bit float (Cubase Pro @ 2048 buffer at mixing) and PC with Windows for Mix capture and mastering  (@ 384 or 192 kHz with buffers up to 16384 /  8192 respectively).

And MacBook Pro M1 Pro is a beast for Davinci Resolve 17.4.3 and Monterey OSX

Edited by ZokZTM

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48 minutes ago, Carl Ewing said:

Ya agreed. The only exception for this is gaming, since most game development is on PC. But illustrators / graphics designers are usually on Mac, just the development is PC side. I will likely move to MBP this year, as I'm getting tired of problems on laptop PC (my 8th laptop) while my colleagues breeze along without having to tweak a single thing on 6 year old models. Desktop will always be Windows though. Will never go to the dark side. Although I am somewhat curious how those new MBP's hold up against my desktop system. If it can handle as much as people say - and some of those specs are insane - I may try experimenting with it as main studio system. I just don't believe it's that powerful until I see it myself.

My honest opinion: This is from my current experience - NO! They are not. (Not sure about the MBP though.)  

My comparison here are between my Surface Studio and iMac and I can say with confidence that my Surfce Studio are a beast against the iMac even though theres a two Gen difference between them, with the iMac having bigger specs. It's just heavy on effects! It's ridiculous. As soon as I hit that 350 effects mark on the iMac it starts to show some strain. With the Surface Studio in the same DAW (windows version,) I easily and comfortably work beyond that 350 and all I did was saved that project with effects on the Mac and did a project conversion on the Surface Studio and opened the project.

Edited by Will_Kaydo

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23 hours ago, Hugh Mann said:

Intel is the dark side. 🤣

What does that even mean? I don't know if you're just trying to be ironic, but that's probably not a good idea when you've already made yourself sound like a fanboy and the statement can easily be interpreted to reflect your actual mindset.

Intel is as ***** of a corporation as any, sometimes excelling above. But at least they're heavily investing in growing the semiconductor fabrication industry in U.S., to make the West less dependent on China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_sites

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/06/how-intel-plans-to-catch-up-to-samsung-and-tsmc-with-44-billion-of-new-global-chip-fabs.html

Quote

In 1990, 37% of the world’s semiconductors were made in the U.S., according to industry association Semi. Last year, U.S. market share was down to 12%, according to the association. The government is hoping to change that with the CHIPS Act, which includes a proposed $52 billion in subsidies for chip companies like Intel that commit to manufacturing in the U.S. 

“It also starts building up that base within the United States, so that the United States can become more self-sufficient,” said Ann Kelleher, Intel’s senior vice president of technology development .

TSMC is responsible for 92% of the world’s 5-nanometer chips, according to research group Capital Economics. This leaves the global chip supply vulnerable to natural disasters like earthquakes and the region’s current drought. There’s also the escalating geopolitical tension between China and Taiwan, as well as the U.S.-China trade war.

“Every aspect of defense, intelligence, government operations is becoming more digital,” Gelsinger said. “And we want to rely on foreign technology for those critical aspects of our defense and national security? I don’t think so.”

 

Apple mostly helps to grow the industries in China...

https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Supplier-List.pdf

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/China-tech/China-ousts-Taiwan-as-Apple-s-biggest-source-of-suppliers

Quote

The number of Apple's U.S.-based suppliers has dropped as well, to 32 last year from 37 in 2017. Most of those remaining -- such as 3M, Corning, Micron, Lumentum and Qualcomm -- supply high-value semiconductors and materials that are difficult to replace.

 

...and of course the creative "industry" and mindnumbing consumerism in the West, increasing "quality of life".

Not to belittle anyone's productive endeavors on their Macs but computers are far more important than any number of concrete tasks you're using them to do today.

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1 hour ago, sarine said:

What does that even mean? I don't know if you're just trying to be ironic, but that's probably not a good idea when you've already made yourself sound like a fanboy and the statement can easily be interpreted to reflect your actual mindset.

 

Oh brother. This kind of personal thing is what gets annoying to me.
 

You do realize that apple still sells computers with intel chips? And I thought the emoticon made it clear I was joking.

 

But aside from all ur “Mercia first crap, what if I’m Chinese? Maybe I’d be happy for the growth of china.  Anyway, I’m not Chinese. 🤣  

I do have a critique of intel though. For years they just incrementally increased their computing power on a fairly predictable schedule.  They got lazy and didn’t innovate as much as they could. Apple, also an American company, come out with a really great chip. That’s not in debate. So now the rest will have to put on their propeller beanies and figure out the heat/ wattage bottleneck. That’s a good thing.

What Apple did with the M1 chip is really worthy of admiration. Before the M1 chip, it was a fact of life that more power equals  more wattage = more heat = need for cooling= noise =low battery life.  Throttling was something we lived with. The M1 completely changed that.  No throttling on battery and battery lasts 15-20 hours. . I can do full sessions on battery for 10 hrs.  No heat.  No fan noise.  That’s impressive.  And pc windows machines can’t match that right now. That’s impressive and worthy of admiration and praise. Good job Apple! When intel or AMD do something that  leapfrogs tech like that, I’ll be right there admiring that too.  Like I said, I love tech. So can we stop with the personal attacks and put downs?   Thanks. 🤟

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On 1/28/2022 at 10:00 AM, Hugh Mann said:

There is a good example posted in this thread already. How much time has he wasted? And he’s still not done.  

If it takes someone more than about 15 minutes to tweak Win10 for maximum DAW performance, they don't know what they're doing.

If it takes hours/days, they're learning/experimenting.  

 

I build/configure machines literally every day.  (Have done so for 25+ years)

Lots of tweaks involved... but I know exactly what needs to be done... and it's the same every time.

I'd liken building/configuring PCs to Algebra. 

If you know how to solve the equation, you'll always get the right answer.

 

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Those who think most professionals are using Mac:

I get calls on a daily basis from professional composers... who simply can't get the speed/configuration (from Apple) they need to effectively work.

If you watch TV/Movies... a custom PC was used to create the music on almost all of them.

 

Composer Tim Wynn was a long time Cakewalk user (has since switched to Cubase).

Tim is now scoring feature films for the likes of Marvel.

I can say with 100% certainty that he's not using a Mac.

Nor is his colleague Ernie Lee... as we just shipped his new machine

 

I do think the Apple Mini is a slick little machine.

It's pretty cool for what it is (small form-factor simple machine).

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jim Roseberry
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Any minute now the Mac Fanboys will show up and want to argue with a man who's building and shipping out windows machines to professionals.

 

Mac.

Its not just a computer, its a religion.

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How about just bringing a touch of objective common sense to it?

A smaller percentage of a large number is still a significant number in absolute terms - making it easy to cite individual examples without proving anything one way or the other.  

I'd also venture that a man that builds and ships PCs is likely to have his experience skewed towards the group of professionals that are using PCs.

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11 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said:

Those who think most professionals are using Mac:

I get calls on a daily basic from professional composers... who simply can't get the speed/configuration (from Apple) they need to effectively work.

If you watch TV/Movies... a custom PC was used to create the music on almost all of them.

 

Composer Tim Wynn was a long time Cakewalk user (has since switched to Cubase).

Tim is now scoring feature films for the likes of Marvel.

I can say with 100% certainty that he's not using a Mac.

Nor is his colleague Ernie Lee... as we just shipped his new machine

 

I do think the Apple Mini is a slick little machine.

It's pretty cool for what it is (small form-factor simple machine).

 

 

 

 

Mini is cool , but i ll get a Z2 anytime instead ;) hehe pretty sure 10 %here knows it exists ....

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On 1/28/2022 at 3:09 PM, Jim Roseberry said:

I recall someone on these forums saying that the 12900k was faster than the M1.

He had actually benckmarked both... comparing side-by-side.

Don't know who that might have been... 😁

 

The 12900k is an amazing CPU.

Yes, you need robust cooling.

Heat is nowhere near Threadripper.  IOW, It's possible to build a quiet machine.

I'm convinced it is the right choice, but my guess it the problem is with Ableton. I have run several test (similar to Craig N who PM'ed me, thanks!) and there seems to be very weird behaviour. Ableton has this neat feature where you can see which channel uses the most CPU. If I load a project with let's say 70 tracks. Only roughly 7 tracks exhibit extreme CPU usage and the rest are just cruising by. I can delete those channels and the problem moves to another set of channels. So if I begin a project with a couple of channels, the CPU usage is too high in my opinion. But if I keep adding channels, the problem doens't seem to get that bigger. Of course there is a limit but it's like it idles at 8-10%. Every channel up to 7-8 adds 10% and after that every new channel adds almost nothing. 

I just relayed al this info to Ableton support and I will wait for their reply. Again, seems weird that I'm venting on a cakewalk forum, but I like you guys better than the Ableton forum 😋

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58 minutes ago, Nick Blanc said:

I'm convinced it is the right choice, but my guess it the problem is with Ableton. I have run several test (similar to Craig N who PM'ed me, thanks!) and there seems to be very weird behaviour. Ableton has this neat feature where you can see which channel uses the most CPU. If I load a project with let's say 70 tracks. Only roughly 7 tracks exhibit extreme CPU usage and the rest are just cruising by. I can delete those channels and the problem moves to another set of channels. So if I begin a project with a couple of channels, the CPU usage is too high in my opinion. But if I keep adding channels, the problem doens't seem to get that bigger. Of course there is a limit but it's like it idles at 8-10%. Every channel up to 7-8 adds 10% and after that every new channel adds almost nothing. 

I just relayed al this info to Ableton support and I will wait for their reply. Again, seems weird that I'm venting on a cakewalk forum, but I like you guys better than the Ableton forum 😋

I'd setup a "stress-test" type project in another DAW.

That'll let you know whether the issue is specific to Ableton Live.

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13 hours ago, bdickens said:

Any minute now the Mac Fanboys will show up and want to argue with a man who's building and shipping out windows machines to professionals.

 

Mac.

Its not just a computer, its a religion.

Im sure you are not seeing the irony in your statement,  but the Anti-Fanboys are just as religious.  Worse, really.

Like your own post.  You stated that people would need to replace all their software.  That’s completely untrue.  Why make such an easily disproven statement?  Now I realize its  because you are an Anti-Fanboy.  Anyway, I corrected that erroneous statement. Because many people really on these forums to expand their knowledge.  That’s the spirit of these discussions.   I’ve learned a lot from these and many other forums.  If people didn’t  post misinformation and lies,  I wouldn’t post as much.  I likely would have been able to achieve my goal of having the lowest post count.  Now, because I'm dealing with so many Anti-Fanboys,  that dream is ruined.😪

The definition seems to fit some of you perfectly.

Anti-Fanboy:

-One who has a hatred of certain people, places, companies, etc. without question. They disregard every single thing posted in favor, as crap.

-Somebody who hates a certain thing for no apparent reasons, and will not listen to logic. Super annoying, and can be worse than an actual fanboy.

-A computer geek that sits all day on his  *****, telling things to people for no reason.   A troll.

Go back and look at my posts.  The majority, if not all,  are correcting misinformation or outright lies (i.e 8gb ram M1 is only good for a paperweight), or fending off personal attacks.

But now I realize I’ve been engaging with Anti-Fanboys.  That’s fine.  Just a good FYI when engaging.

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16 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said:

If it takes someone more than about 15 minutes to tweak Win10 for maximum DAW performance, they don't know what they're doing.

If it takes hours/days, they're learning/experimenting.  

 

I build/configure machines literally every day.  (Have done so for 25+ years)

Lots of tweaks involved... but I know exactly what needs to be done... and it's the same every time.

I'd liken building/configuring PCs to Algebra. 

If you know how to solve the equation, you'll always get the right answer.

 

You literally just proved my point.   As I previously stated,  and you confirm, in order to have a window machine work properly, it has to be tweaked. “Lots of tweaks involved”.  In order to know how and what to tweak,  one has to either have lots of knowledge, “  (Have done so for 25+ years) I know exactly what needs to be done”.  Or “to tweak Win10 for maximum DAW performance, (if) they don't know what they're doing. If it takes hours/days, they're learning/experimenting”.   I'll add it can take weeks and months too.  

So then,  if one doesn’t know what to tweak, and one doesn’t want to waste all this time learning and experimenting,  one has to go through someone like you, right?  And you aint any cheaper than a Mac. And all support has to go through you.  That’s an even smaller walled garden than Apple. Can’t even call that a garden.  More like stuck in a plotted plant.  My view, anyway.

So,  since there are  “Lots of tweaks involved... but I know exactly what needs to be done... and it's the same every time” why don’t you share what those tweaks are so everyone can have an optimized DAW  in 15 minutes? Or does someone have to pay for that?  Don’t get me wrong.  I understand trying to make a living in the music biz.  Everyone in it has to hustle.  Even the famous and more successful ones. You got computers to sell.  Not knocking that.  But I do see the bias and conflict of interest.

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