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garybrun

First 40 channel Mix Critique vs 5

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Thanks for your ears ./.. I'm sending my ear drums as well with them .........

Btw  Love the mix mate 👍

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2 minutes ago, SupaReels said:

Thanks for your ears ./.. I'm sending my ear drums as well with them .........

Btw  Love the mix mate 👍

TURN IT DOWN!!!   LOL

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TURN IT DOWN!!!   LOL

 

 

Sorry  .. didn't know you could hear it all the way from here in Westward Ho! ... turning it down now ...otherwise the wife will be calling me on the phone 😁

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I have to confess not my field of expertise sorry I can not help.

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5 hours ago, garybrun said:

know this thread is long and un-interesting

Say what!
This is the "Songs" forum, there isn't a person here that hasn't toiled for hours on a mix and questioned every decision they've made.

5 hours ago, garybrun said:

see the thought process that goes into a mix

creative process, who doesn't love insight in how others work?

5 hours ago, garybrun said:

guy who orignally mixed this did it in about 10 mins...

No, he was "familiar" with the track, I could be wrong; but no!

5 hours ago, garybrun said:

never thought about "call and response"

Coming from a rock/blues background; its all about the call and response...
I would "center", and bring up the level, on something when the singer is quiet.
I'd have to go thru tracks, but I suspect there's something to "fill the void"; I could be wrong...
I'm guitar "centric", and I know that; but with all these tracks, someone is "playing his a-s-s off" everytime the singer takes a long breath.
Also, the first section of the solo lacks a "focal" point. I'm not hearing anything, and I find that surprising.
The second section has that slide work (Dobro maybe). You've got that pretty well centered.
These are my quick thoughts.

HTH

t

big 👍's on the whole process here!

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3 hours ago, Wookiee said:

I have to confess not my field of expertise sorry I can not help.

@Wookiee Thanks O. Furry  One!

I recently requested an additional forum for mixes and maybe mix templates. (not had a reply yet).
Many post their songs up and then post various revisions for advice on mixing etc.
My suggestion it would be good to have a dedicated area.
Its so easy to get lost..  🙂

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1 hour ago, DeeringAmps said:


Also, the first section of the solo lacks a "focal" point. I'm not hearing anything, and I find that surprising.
The second section has that slide work (Dobro maybe). You've got that pretty well centered.

Thanks for that..  I did have it set louder.. the automation on that track was switched off  😞
You get so involved in a project that you miss things...

Ive listened to this track too much!!!  🙂

Think I'll give it a break for a while.

Now back to a few projects people have sent me from the forum 🙂

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Getting in late but I had a listen to mix 5 just then and the arrangement and performances are really great :) 

I reckon where you're running into a bit of trouble on it is the mastering. There seems to be both a lot of stereo enhancement and limiting on it, which is making things like guitars super loud (and this is me - you know I love super loud guitars! HAHA) and to get that vocal up front, that needs to be cranked, but that's also making the limiter pump and that's making the stuff that's getting lost get even more lost, like the drums.

I'd be inclined to really drop back on any mastering effects and then get a nice balance happening first, then see how far you can push it without things getting lost or pumping. I don't think it's really necessary to have a really slammed mix these days, as much as it does work for certain styles (ours, for example) but if you do want to go that route, there's a few things I'd suggest:

First, compress the ever loving snot out of stuff as you go, rather than waiting until the end. Get your signals nice and even (within reason, of course - some stuff you really want to be kind of pokey), then submix each element to its own Aux or Bus and get THAT sounding even. By the time this all gets to your Master Bus, you're going to need to do far less work clamping it all down with a single end limiter.

I think EQ-wise, this is pretty good. It's bass heavy but I like it. But where that can hurt you is the low end is where you're going to be having the most problems taming. A fat, bass-heavy mix will make your limiter work super hard, which will make the entire mix pump far more than it should.

What I'd tend to do here is throw a multiband over the Master Bus and set it so it's only clamping down on the frequencies that build up a bit too much. Ideally, this is stuff you should be solving earlier in the chain (are certain notes on the bass ringing out a bit much? Either EQ or throw a multiband on that first to tame that before needing to do it over a full mix at the end) but if you're liking how this is all working together, a multiband is good for catching rogue frequencies and evening them out before it hits your limiter. I'll almost always throw a multiband on my master just for the subs and the lows (so under 100hz and from about 100 to 250, respectively) and compress those independently, just to make sure I'm able to push the levels a little hotter at the end.

Be mindful of any stereo widening effects on the end too. A well spread out mix sounds great but can be diabolical on a mono speaker, like a phone or a smart speaker, and can really take the focus away from the important stuff, like the lead vocal and the kick and snare. Those 3 things are the most important parts of this mix, with the guitars coming in a close second. If the guitars are too far out in the mix, it's more distracting rather than enhancing.

But overall, I think the sound of everything is great in general, the performances are great too and it's well constructed. It just needs to breathe more. Top stuff! :)

 

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@Lord Tim  Thanks so much for taking the time to listen and comment...  really appreciated.
Its amazing how everyone hears differently.... great advice thanks.

I am building a new mix template on a coarse I'm on by Billy Decker..  country fella.
Ill post his mix here..
Now my tastes are very different to his..  but look how much his mix is slammed and smacking you in the face.
Everything is so forward....  I have added nothing to this track... this is the original.
Watched this guy mix this in about 8mins from scratch with the template system.

I can hardly hear his backing vocals and his guitars are right up front as you guitarist love!!  🙂

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this is a most interesting, informative post....the song is great, well arranged, played, recorded, now it's just a question of ears and taste as to how it will wind up sounding....i can offer the perspective that most all of my stuff is recorded totally in the green, no yellow nor red in any meter whatsoever, the most tracks i've used is 32, i have used the absolute minimum amount of saturation, limiting, compression, tube emulators, etcetera....i rely on EQ'ing and volume automation along with recording each different drum, guitar, synth, piano, organ, etcetera piece on their own individual track for maximum audio manipulation so as to achieve maximum audio clarity and maximum overall song presentation.... as i've only been doing this for about 5 months listen to the professional's comments....please, carry on 🎶🎼🎵🔊

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@Larry T.
HI Larry.
Thanks for commenting.
I am glad you find it informative etc.
That's is why I have posted all the stages and struggles, hoping someone would find it helpful.

I also always used to mix in the green...  but when I discovered how saturation and clipping into emulated analogue gear etc has a huge effect..  it takes it too another level.
You can create different colours and different effects give very different flavours when pushed.
They used to push the old analogue tape to get certain sounds.
I can mix clean..  I just want learn more about what does what and give myself more weapons to add too my arsenal.

Now I have spent 4 days just building a mix template.. adding all compressors and other lovely nice analogue simulations.
Check out ¨Billy Decker Template Mixing

Hopefully now..  I am 70% there when I load all my tracks and stems into a project.

Edited by garybrun
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Yeah, the "professional" mix sounds pretty good but I agree, there's stuff that's prioritised at the expense of a few things I'd personally like to hear. Not to say it's bad (it's a great mix) but everyone has their own personal tastes.

It sounds very much like this is a vocal-first, then drums mix - that's a very pop song oriented mixing technique that I personally really don't like to use myself, but it's really effective. Start with the vocal sounding good first, then bring up the kick and balance it against the vocals, then bring up the snare, and then bring up the bass guitar. At that point, if anything is clashing or stepping on something else, this is time to EQ or compress or multiband compress to get that all working well together. Then bring up the guitars, the rest of the kit, and then any other additional instruments after that.

What I'd tend to do at this point is make sure your levels are fairly good going into the master Bus (obviously not peaking or nudging 0dBFS) and then throw a limiter over the master and crank it until it starts to destroy things, then back it off. What this does to the balance of the mix will make your head spin - the drums will disappear, the bass will get muddy and loud, the guitars will overpower everything. Rebalance it all to sound similar to your un-limited mix. You'll think your limited mix will sound better because it's louder, but there's a trick to rebalance your brain:

Do this first before you strap the limiter on the Master Bus and change anything, while you still have that original un-limited mix sounding good:

Set up 2 main Busses. One for your actual mix to go through and call it Master, and set up another Bus called Reference. Send your Master out to Reference, and send that to your hardware outputs.

In your project, set up a new track called Reference and set its out to go to the Reference Bus. You want to bounce down an un-limited mix of the song to that track - the one that you had sounding great before you smashed it with the master limiter. 

Now throw that cranked limiter on the Master Bus.

Solo the Reference track, check to see how loud that is going into the Reference Bus. Then mute it, and see how loud the Master Bus is in comparison, and drop the output to match the reference. The idea is that if you're happy with the balance of how the un-limited mix sounds overall, if you match the limited version to it, you can focus on what the limiter is doing to the sound of everything, rather than your brain being tricked by it being louder. (When you're done doing all of the work you need to do, you'd obviously set your output correctly rather than trying to match the reference mix.)

Right, so now that you're simulating this having a master limiter on it, and you can rebalance stuff accordingly, you can accurately tell if your reverbs are too loud or elements are being lost. Go back through your mix at that point and think about what stuff you're not hearing. If you've already gotten the un-limited mix in the ballpark, there's a good chance it'll be a case of "yeah, that snare could be a little more pokey" or "the kick is being lost in the chorus, what can I carve out to make room" or even "I know the piano is getting lost but does it matter? Is it supposed to be heard or is it only there as a reinforcement? And if so, how much can I cut out of its EQ that really isn't adding anything other than mud?"

Then add your stereo enhancements, any necessary multiband compression, EQ, etc. to your Master Bus after that. If it's still working for you as compared to the un-limited mix, you're in a great place. It's tweak city from that point. :)

But definitely start with your vocal, kick and snare first for this kind of material if you want to go for something along the lines of the "professional" mix. Everything else is just there to support those things. And every guitarist in the world just went "Boooooo!" HAHA!

Edited by Lord Tim
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@Lord Tim thanks so much for taking the time to reply.
brilliant..  I’m going to try some of those things.
I always start with drum and bass and leave vocals to last..

Once again thanks pal.

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Yup, that's my usual M.O. too but in this case, and a lot of pop/country, it's really all about the vocal. Like I said, I really don't care much for working this way myself, but sometimes if you can't manage to get a certain element to stand out, shaking up your workflow can really open up some doors and make how you approach a mix differently, even if you ultimately don't use it much going forward :)

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Here I go, the "guitar player" wants more me.
I'm hearing some things in your mix that are not in Billy's mix.
I'm still thinking there is more "call and response" in the tracks; could be wrong...
Was Billy involved at all in the tracking of this tune?
Who produced the original sessions?

For $57 I get the original sessions?
Might be worth it just to see what you two are missing...

Lots of good advice from Tim above.

t

I left some comments over at BandLab, louder is always better (see Tim above).
Yes Billy's guitars are more present in the mix, and the vocal is "brighter".
How much of that is just "its louder" (well his guitars are more "forward" as well).
This has been enlightening and, well; FUN!

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13 minutes ago, DeeringAmps said:

Here I go, the "guitar player" wants more me.
I'm hearing some things in your mix that are not in Billy's mix.
I'm still thinking there is more "call and response" in the tracks; could be wrong...
Was Billy involved at all in the tracking of this tune?
Who produced the original sessions?

For $57 I get the original sessions?
Might be worth it just to see what you two are missing...

Lots of good advice from Tim above.

t

I left some comments over at BandLab, louder is always better (see Tim above).
Yes Billy's guitars are more present in the mix, and the vocal is "brighter".
How much of that is just "its louder" (well his guitars are more "forward" as well).
This has been enlightening and, well; FUN!

Yes you get the original sessions and two more to work on..  pop and rock.
I recommend it...  you learn a lot.

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Pro Mix Academy has some excellent stuff and some great teachers. I really think Warren is offering a fantastic service - if you don't get at least something useful out of the calibre of teachers and different styles they offer on there, it might be time to go off and become an accountant or something 😒

And yeah, man... louder really does fool your brain, even when you're expecting it to do so! I do think (personal taste aside for some changes) that the pro mix is really great, but I'd also almost guarantee that if you had that up against an identical mix that was 6dB quieter, you'd say it sounds better. Brains are dumb. 🙄

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@Lord Tim    Brains are dumb... and so are we!   LOL.

I have been a Plapper for a few years now.
My favourite teacher is Marc Daniel Neilson...  WOW!!

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It's a fine song and vocal performance - this sounds just as good as any of the hits on Country radio today.

40 tracks - yikes.  That's a tough and challenging job.  I average about 16 tracks per song.

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