Spitfire - The Ton - BF 2021

[Christian Jones]

1 hour ago, PavlovsCat said:

Exactly. Granted, I totally intended the humor value in my idea, but it's a serious idea too. Nobody has Larry's depth of knowledge of deals. I think Larry doesn't even realize the value of that knowledge. I think what I like even more is that influence marketing has created an army of shills -- people who will say anything for freebies and money. I'm a marketing professional and have been doing the profession and writing about it for decades, but the advent of influencer marketing is not something I think is a good thing for society, for consumers. It's incredibly difficult to discern when you're seeing an honest review and one where someone is motivated financially either by free product or money. Larry has built up a degree of trust with us.  Larry is no shill. He's hyper-opinionated and we may disagree strongly with his opinions. But I never doubt that those opinions are sincere, and because of that, I value even opinions that are very different than my own. 

Another thing Larry does that's telling, he doesn't post affiliate links. A lot of influencers -- read that most -- post affiliate links. It is the ultimate BS  / shilling when someone pretends to be objective and then is an affiliate. And that's coming from someone who has ran a major affiliate program.  Let's be clear, affiliates are salespeople for the products they're mentioning. There's nothing more to it. So, affiliates are a terrible place to look for objectivity. But since influencer marketing became mainstreamed, a heck of a lot of faux reviewers use affiliate marketing. And the reality is, in my consulting, I've steered brands to affiliates. I LOATHE the ethics of it, but it is a part of how companies promote these days. But it's really been a bad thing for consumers looking to honestly research products and services. 

Okay, rant over. 

It does seem impossible to get an honest opinion (or at least to be fully forthcoming) from these people on YouTube. It's made me go back to just cruising threads on here and places like VI Control (and even Gearslutz/Gearspace) to see what real world folks who often do this work as a grind and  who will make nothing off their post have to say about something.

Like this post I dug up last night that expresses the same thing you wrote to Reid up there about having too much and the virtues of limiting yourself: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/thoughts-on-orchestral-libraries.115499/

And this other post I dug up last night from a dude who seems to own just about every sample library and was shelling out some no bs at length opinions on sample libraries I'm interested in, and this kind of post is exactly what I need and yet seems nearly impossible to get from a YouTuber: https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=14587089&postcount=5

https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=14587727&postcount=8

I still like YouTubers like SLR to show me some sounds, but they rarely give many cons.. like for the Fluffy Audio Spaghetti Western library I just bought, their review mentioned zero cons that I recall, but if you look on VI Control you'll see users posting how they love the SW library but that improvements can be made, and even the Fluffy dev agreed w/ them and said he'd be putting out updates to SW asap. Guys like King Lar, Reid.. and bitflipper here is another guy whose opinion I follow for this type of stuff and I almost always end up buying what I see him recommending, which most recently for me was Blue Street Brass. YouTubers are good for showing me the way the interface works on something, and some of the sounds but you'll probably have to read on forums to find out the everyday real world cons of a given library/app. 

[PavlovsCat]

@Reid RosefeltI'm certainly not calling every affiliate marketer a shill and I am definitely NOT saying or implying you are a shill. I like you and what you do. Let me be very clear. 

I'm saying that affiliate marketing -- and I've led it at a major brand, been involved in it at numerous brands, wrote on the topic and digital marketing in articles cited by and recommended by Inc, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. -- and influencer marketing has resulted in it being very difficult for a consumer to discern when a review is influenced or not and the degree to which freebies, sales and kickbacks influence a review Back when I did a lot of writing, I even would do book reviews and use affiliate marketing for books. Although I only reviewed 1 in 20 books sent to me. So publicists didn't love me. I had no interest in reviewing poor quality or mediocre books. What the advent of influencer marketing has done has made it virtually impossible for a consumer to discern when someone is honestly reviewing a product or shilling. That doesn't mean everyone using affiliate marketing is shilling. Technically, if you disclose that you are an affiliate marketer -- which is a type of salesperson -- you are not shilling, and I know that you and Simeon disclose that very clearly. I am not accusing either of you of shilling. But there's a ton of it going on, and the reality is, if you're a dev, you give freebies to whoever has enough followers to make it a smart biz decision, and those who have a lot of followers often want money to, and that's almost never disclosed. 

This is a bigger, and deeper subject than a post permits. But the spirit of reviewers from the days of actual journalism is not carried on by YouTubers who promote products. Granted, I have advised dozens of brands and small devs to use influencers, but as a consumer, I don't generally think they're a good thing. It is an army of product shills. Professionally, yes, I use them, I recommend them, but no, I don't have a great deal of trust in the integrity of people giving reviews to get free product, kickbacks and other benefits for an unbiased review. And funny, while some J-schools have recommended my writing, when I was working for a big news agency, I was on the advertising side, where they're often fighting with the editor to pull negative stories of big advertisers. But influencers have completely destroyed the idea of objective reviews and that has even had  a negative impact on traditional news agencies, some of which are now using sponsored, syndicated content that is basically an advertorial. Yeah, it's easily worthy of a book, but I think it's one of the worst things to happen in marketing for consumers. Once again though, that isn't the same as saying that I think that every influencer is shilling. But I think the reality is, there's so much bias that comes with these solopreneurs looking for affiliate money, free product and kickbacks, there is very little objectivity. 

On a positive note, I found on YouTuber reviewer of sample libraries and VSTs that, IMO, has the kind of credibility of old school reviewers from the journalism world, Cory Pelizzari. I don't know the guy, but man,  I'd love to see more like him. 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_ANfIulrcJ1LvtZVNFdexg

Edited November 23, 2021 by PavlovsCat

[PavlovsCat]

34 minutes ago, Christian Jones said:

It does seem impossible to get an honest opinion (or at least to be fully forthcoming) from these people on YouTube. It's made me go back to just cruising threads on here and places like VI Control (and even Gearslutz/Gearspace) to see what real world folks who often do this work as a grind and  who will make nothing off their post have to say about something.

Like this post I dug up last night that expresses the same thing you wrote to Reid up there about having too much and the virtues of limiting yourself: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/thoughts-on-orchestral-libraries.115499/

And this other post I dug up last night from a dude who seems to own just about every sample library and was shelling out some no bs at length opinions on sample libraries I'm interested in, and this kind of post is exactly what I need and yet seems nearly impossible to get from a YouTuber: https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=14587089&postcount=5

https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=14587727&postcount=8

I still like YouTubers like SLR to show me some sounds, but they rarely give many cons.. like for the Fluffy Audio Spaghetti Western library I just bought, their review mentioned zero cons that I recall, but if you look on VI Control you'll see users posting how they love the SW library but that improvements can be made, and even the Fluffy dev agreed w/ them and said he'd be putting out updates to SW asap. Guys like King Lar, Reid.. and bitflipper here is another guy whose opinion I follow for this type of stuff and I almost always end up buying what I see him recommending, which most recently for me was Blue Street Brass. YouTubers are good for showing me the way the interface works on something, and some of the sounds but you'll probably have to read on forums to find out the everyday real world cons of a given library/app. 

From leading  digital marketing for two decades at big brands to starting my own dot com, as I wrote earlier, influencer marketing is really just sales shilling. It's really just the P from the four Ps of marketing (promotion). It's not the stuff of objective reviews and the reality is that these influencers are not very honest or self aware about the bias that getting free product, making money from selling the product via affiliate marketing links and getting kickbacks plays in their objectivity.  Again, I wasn't calling Reid a shill. I doubt he even makes much money from affiliate links in these forums. But the reality is, developers give influencers free product and money to promote their products, so calling that stuff reviews is more than a little disingenuous. Influence marketers are peddlers, not legit reviewers. They don't call them influencers (which is influence marketing) because they're objective. It's about the power they have to influence others to buy things. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by PavlovsCat

[Fleer]

Love those vids by Cory Pelizzari.
Dan Worrall is great too, especially on FabFilter. As for tutorials, Eli Krantzberg at Groove3 is pretty good. 

[tom]

I own Vintage Keys so can get Olufar Arnalds Evolutions for £50, is it worth it? ANy opinions as to the library?

[Fleer]

3 minutes ago, tom said:

I own Vintage Keys so can get Olufar Arnalds Evolutions for £50, is it worth it? ANy opinions as to the library?

Do compare it to his Chamber Evolutions. You may (or not) prefer that one. It just seems more useful to me. 

[PavlovsCat]

12 minutes ago, Fleer said:

Love those vids by Cory Pelizzari.
Dan Worrall is great too, especially on FabFilter. As for tutorials, Eli Krantzberg at Groove3 is pretty good. 

When Corey came out and was brutally honest about the Sturgis drum library, it impressed the hell out of me. Being on the brand side of things, you're very well aware of how influencers are compensated and, almost always, the dishonesty of their relationship with consumers. Cory is so detailed and brutally honest, he's the antithesis of the norm. I don't know the guy. I never interacted with him, but I respect the heck out of him. I wish there were more like him. But many brands/developers  will be afraid to deal with him -- especially if they see his review of the Joey Sturgis drum library. That was epic as were his posts afterwards. 

[Christian Jones]

1 hour ago, PavlovsCat said:

From leading  digital marketing for two decades at big brands to starting my own dot com, as I wrote earlier, influencer marketing is really just sales shilling. It's really just the P from the four Ps of marketing (promotion). It's not the stuff of objective reviews and the reality is that these influencers are not very honest or self aware about the bias that getting free product, making money from selling the product via affiliate marketing links and getting kickbacks plays in their objectivity.  Again, I wasn't calling Reid a shill. I doubt he even makes much money from affiliate links in these forums. But the reality is, developers give influencers free product and money to promote their products, so calling that stuff reviews is more than a little disingenuous. Influence marketers are peddlers, not legit reviewers. They don't call them influencers (which is influence marketing) because they're objective. It's about the power they have to influence others to buy things. 

Ah yes, that 'innate human bias when free stuff and money's involved' we were bantering about back when we were talking about Greg/Orange Tree's stuff and I believe you said you're friends with Greg. Yeah I could see how some publicists wouldn't like a guy who doesn't always play ball lol. If I didn't drink alone I'd buy you a beer to pick your brain more 😁. Thanks for reminding me of Cory! 

 

 

[Fleer]

And thank you for reminding me of Greg from OrangeTreeSamples. As a keyboard player I cherish his Famous E Electric Piano and I’m anxiously waiting for his Rosewood Grand update. Such a wonderful developer. His latest Evolution Dry Relic is pretty sweet too. 

[kitekrazy]

On the other hand those $20 libraries..........

[PavlovsCat]

13 hours ago, Fleer said:

And thank you for reminding me of Greg from OrangeTreeSamples. As a keyboard player I cherish his Famous E Electric Piano and I’m anxiously waiting for his Rosewood Grand update. Such a wonderful developer. His latest Evolution Dry Relic is pretty sweet too. 

I was an obsessive guitar sample library user going back to the 80s with my Roland U20 with electric guitar samples that also happens to have expertise in marketing and branding and gave both paid and free consulting advice to a bunch of sample and plugin developers.  I've hung out with Ben from Camel Audio in Scotland, met Greg in Chicago (where I live) -- I love the stuff these guys make, just brilliant and through the course of being a fan of their work, I've offered some free advice. I have given advice to a bunch of guitar sample library developers and even turned down free libraries in exchange -- I've never told that story.  Years ago a guitar sample library developer -- who I still stay in touch with -- whose libraries I use got mad at me on this forum because someone asked for advice on guitar sample libraries and I gave my opinion on all of them and stated that no one was at the level Greg was at with Orange Tree Samples. So, this other developer of sample libraries, who I gave free advice to and was a paying customer of (something I didn't want to share at the time because I didn't want other developers coming to me for free advice; because this was a really small developer. I turned him down when he offered to pay me; in fact, I did accept a gift from him; when my daughter was born he gave me a library as a gift), but on the old Cakewalk forum, he told me it was wrong for me to share my opinion when I had consulted to him (for free!). So yeah, I don't do that anymore (give free consulting, I have kids to support who want to go to college). 

But Greg was and is brilliant. He brought guitar and bass sample libraries to the next level. That's the idea behind Evolution -- which I came up with the name for because I personally found the libraries he was making were (and still are) an evolution from what had been. Heck, I know of two developers I didn't consult to, but had talked to a few times that both told me that they reverse engineered Greg's libraries and one of them is now one of the more popular guitar sample developers (I will withhold the name because I don't enjoy drama and if you go back several years ago, a couple of the guitar devs I also consulted to were creating some drama at this very forum -- when I was going by eDrummist, if anyone wants to search! One thing I've always said is that I reserve the right to give my opinion, that I never give that right away). 

So yeah, over the years, I did paid consulting for Greg, advised on product lines, promotions, the website, branding, trademarks.... And we became friends and I love the guy -- he's seriously one of the best people I've ever met in my life.  So, yeah, you can say, I'm incredibly biased and discount everything I write. But after disclosing that, I'd be a terrible shill, because I just shared that I have a friendship with Greg. I do with other developers too, and some I don't even talk about their libraries and yes, I use competitor libraries, like most DAW users. I've consulted to a string sample library developer and anyone can see that I recently picked up 8Dio's stuff and was considering another developer's libraries. I'd be buying other libraries too if I had the budget, but again, I have two kids that want to go to college. 

Regarding Corey. So every so often, I shoot Greg a text or email suggesting YouTubers or influencers I think he should be getting out product to (like more recently, Simeon). A few years ago I found out about Corey and thought this guy is the real deal -- I just love him. And Greg is as honest as they come. So, I thought Greg would appreciate this too and I was right. But it turned out that Greg was a step ahead of me and not only knew all about Corey, he was already an OTS customer and I'm pretty sure he even did a demo for an OTS library. Although I don't think he ever did a review video at that point (or since). So, yeah, sometimes me telling Greg about something in the music world  is like me thinking I can get up a deal post before Larry. It's just not likely! 

Edited November 23, 2021 by PavlovsCat

[TracingArcs]

8 hours ago, tom said:

I own Vintage Keys so can get Olufar Arnalds Evolutions for £50, is it worth it? ANy opinions as to the library?

Here's a quote from forum member AMBi on VI-C :

"OA Evolutions is solid but *extremely* specific, more so than any Spitfire library I’ve come across.
Some of the Evolutions are too unwieldy, and unpredictable in both volume and tuning to be usable in most applications as you would with other texture libraries but I guess that’s one of the things that makes it special compared to those. The intimacy compared to Chamber Evos can be nice too.

I’ve had it for most of the year and I can only me see myself using it in a track or two before retiring it personally.

Also I don’t know why but Spitfire’s cellos tend to be the weakest aspect of some of their libraries and the same I feel is true here. The viola evos are the highlight though!"

 

So I was in the same position (It's OA - It's Spitfire - It's an EVO!)) But have decided, not this year!

[tom]

20 minutes ago, TracingArcs said:

Here's a quote from forum member AMBi on VI-C :

"OA Evolutions is solid but *extremely* specific, more so than any Spitfire library I’ve come across.
Some of the Evolutions are too unwieldy, and unpredictable in both volume and tuning to be usable in most applications as you would with other texture libraries but I guess that’s one of the things that makes it special compared to those. The intimacy compared to Chamber Evos can be nice too.

I’ve had it for most of the year and I can only me see myself using it in a track or two before retiring it personally.

Also I don’t know why but Spitfire’s cellos tend to be the weakest aspect of some of their libraries and the same I feel is true here. The viola evos are the highlight though!"

 

So I was in the same position (It's OA - It's Spitfire - It's an EVO!)) But have decided, not this year!

Oh that’s great info, thank you. Yeah I watched the walk through and it sounds very nice but also very specific. I don’t really own many string libraries so I’m still tempted but fear it will gather dust as too niche

[TracingArcs]

33 minutes ago, tom said:

Oh that’s great info, thank you. Yeah I watched the walk through and it sounds very nice but also very specific. I don’t really own many string libraries so I’m still tempted but fear it will gather dust as too niche

If you want an intimate string sound (but also capable of more). Then look at Ben Osterhouse - Sospiro Strings. It has individual NKI for full ensemble, individual NKI for Bass, Cello. Viola, Violin. Highly regarded (universally excellent reviews) and a crazy price (£31 at PB). And NI have approached him to work with them. So will be going places.

[tom]

49 minutes ago, TracingArcs said:

If you want an intimate string sound (but also capable of more). Then look at Ben Osterhouse - Sospiro Strings. It has individual NKI for full ensemble, individual NKI for Bass, Cello. Viola, Violin. Highly regarded (universally excellent reviews) and a crazy price (£31 at PB). And NI have approached him to work with them. So will be going places.

Thanks for the tip, google search led me here where its a bit cheaper, no experience with Loot Audio though:

https://www.lootaudio.com/category/kontakt-instruments/ben-osterhouse/sospiro-strings-ben-osterhouse-kontakt

[Matthew Sorrels]

Loot Audio is a good retailer, definitely recommended.  Ben Osterhouse strings are pretty good too (I like his Pattern Strings a lot) but neither are really a bread and butter string libraries.  They have very narrow focus, which for the price are great.

I picked up The Ton but to be honest I wasn't impressed with OA Evolutions (but I only played with it for about a half hour).  I'm not a big fan of the whole EVO thing to start with though.  The Vintage Keys is nice, but I have so many choices for those sounds, I doubt I'd choose it.

[Reid Rosefelt]

I am personally tired of the Spitfire approach to unusual string sounds.  Tundra is a classic, yes, but they have become more stale and unimaginative as time goes on with their EVOs.  This stuff is very specific and not as useful or as fun to play with as other libraries.  I don't think they're ahead of the curve any more.

While they sign up famous composers, other people just come up with interesting concepts and scripting.

IMO, the exciting work in this area  today is being done by Ben Osterhouse, Westwood Instruments, and HAVE audio with solo instruments and Sunset Strings and Arkhis for orchestral.   The OT Time Series is also something I really love. 

As I'm not really an orchestral composer, I don't have any plans to buy any more traditional orchestral libraries. I'm happy with Cinematic Studio. I'll keep buying solo instruments.  

But I like these unusual libraries and will continue to open up my wallet for them.  They are the kind of libraries where you can compose music with one or two instruments.  Add a piano and you can have something really beautiful.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Reid Rosefelt

[TracingArcs]

2 hours ago, tom said:

Thanks for the tip, google search led me here where its a bit cheaper, no experience with Loot Audio though:

https://www.lootaudio.com/category/kontakt-instruments/ben-osterhouse/sospiro-strings-ben-osterhouse-kontakt

Loot Audio are fine.. I've bought lots from them. However. They have just started showing prices without VAT. So add that on if UK/EU based

Edited November 23, 2021 by TracingArcs