Multichannel instrument problems

[jkoseattle]

I am using a plugin which lets me load multiple instruments into a single instance. I have done this, and set each instrument to Midi channels 1 and 2 respectively. In CW I then Append Instrument Track, set the original track's input to channel 1 and the appended track's input to channel 2. This way, I can play off the single plugin instance but switch between sounds just by using different CW tracks. I am currently using this for a cello. One channel is arco, the other is pizz. But I can really see how useful this would be for building a drum kit from scratch, for instance, so I'm keen to figure this out. Couple questions:

First off, this works great when I set it up. Then I'm playing around with it and maybe going to other tracks too, and every time, after a few minutes the channel 1 instrument no longer plays. It receives input fine, so I can record, but no playback. This is also true within the plugin's own window. Simply reloading the errant instrument immediately fixes it, but again, only lasts a couple minutes. This is true regardless of the instruments I am loading. It's always the original instrument, which I set to channel 1, and the appended track which is set to channel 2, continues working. What am I doing wrong here?

Second question, while it seems intuitive that this is a better way to build my sounds, what's really the difference between doing it this way vs just inserting two separate instances of the plugin and not messing around with channels at all?

[Noel Borthwick]

It looks like your project is in a corrupted state where the UI is referencing tracks that have been deleted somehow.
You can recover by deleting tracks 4 and 12 and deleting the associated synth. Then add it back later.
I'm not sure what operation could have caused this. Did the project originate in an older version of SONAR perhaps?

[jkoseattle]

@Noel Borthwick No, I just started it last week. As it turns out, I've been re-recording the few parts I've gotten done and I like these new performances better anyway :-). But it sure would be nice to know what caused it so I can not worry about it anymore.

[Noel Borthwick]

Was the project created in the 2021.11 release?
It would be useful if you can retrace what operation first lead to that issue. Did you save versions of that project and do you remember what operations were performed, undo/redo etc?
There is definitely a bug that is leading to this inconsistent state. The bad tracks are instrument tracks that have lost their linkage to the synth track apparently. This confuses the UI and it doesn't load the strips properly in the console. Even right clicking the strips can cause it to crash.

[jkoseattle]

Well I can tell you that I was working on a new technique, wherein I load multiple instruments into a single Play instance, and assign them to different channels rather than load a bunch of separate Play instances. Having dismissed the Insert Soft Synth dialog long ago, I wasn't getting separate tracks for each instrument, so was making them manually by choosing "Append Instrument Track" off the track initially created with the synth, and just changing out the Midi channels. So there was probably a bunch of experimentation going on in that realm. I would strongly suspect something I did in that area would be the culprit, if that helps at all.

[Noel Borthwick]

Thanks, maybe there is something in that series of steps that exposes a bug in the code. I don't think this is related to Play itself but how you are going about setting up the tracks that led to this.
If you get some time please try and recreate the problem in a fresh project and keep opening console view to check. If you find something please let us know.

[jkoseattle]

Semi-related: In the Insert Soft Synths Options dialog, I have it set to Instrument Track Per Output. So - Why isn't there a way to name the soft synth right here, so I don't then have to go manually change every created track??? And why do the instances all HAVE TO HAVE a number after them, even when I rename it?

 

[jkoseattle]

@John Vere OK so I really am trying to get this multichannel e thing working, but I'm running out of patience. Now I've learned than adding an Audio FX to a track operates on all tracks associated with that instance, regardless of channel. So, how do I get around this?

[John Vere]

3 hours ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

@jkoseattle It seems like something got corrupted in the project file itself. What seems to work to recover it is if you delete the synth instances that tracks 4 and 12 are using from the Synth Rack View. Then the console will open correctly again (and you'll need to re-add the synths. 

I suggested this way back in this thread but the OP has not seemed to follow through with proper trouble shooting. Also MsMcleod pointed out the multi channel set up also involves setting outputs in the VST. The screen shot clearly shows the Cello routed to the Master LR output.  

My Video very Cleary shows how to insert a multi channel set up using the TTS-1 as example. The instructions will be the same for any instrument that supports multi channel set up. People need to realize that the instrument tracks inserted represent OUTPUT not CHANNELS. That is set within the VST. 

I believe the corruption might be using this weird Append Instrument function?? I actually had never heard of this feature but I see it is in the track pane dialog.  It might have become corrupted in a update but because no one uses it, nobody caught it yet. 

There is many things not done right here so starting over is best way. 

I would start a new project, follow the instructions in my video, and drag the midi tracks to the new projects.  

Edited November 10, 2021 by John Vere

[jkoseattle]

All right, well I'm moving on, thanks for all the help. fwiw I followed a lot more closely to your video than you seem to think.

BUT... I did NOT set the output channels. That was the problem. As is the case for 92% of all problems in my entire life, it turns out to be my screw up.

However, constructive criticism: If you are going to scold someone for not following your video properly, might want to ask why that might be. This stuff is hard, man! I've been using CW as my DAW exclusively for 32 years, and I still only know what about half of the features do it seems.

Edited November 10, 2021 by jkoseattle

[Noel Borthwick]

Using more advanced features are certainly not simple so don't feel bad. And it does look like you uncovered a bug that we need to find so please let me know if you discover what caused the corruption. 

[jkoseattle]

I think you're right about that being some sort of bug. The only evidence I have is that corrupted file and a vague understanding of what I was doing leading up to it. Doesn't the Undo History get saved with the file? No clues there?

[John Vere]

Sorry if I came across wrong, my wife always has to warn me ! 
And I actually appreciate feedback about the videos. If they are not clear enough then I need to see what I can do to change that.  And right away before they get spread across the net. I totally deleted my last series last July because I wasn’t happy with them.  They represented 2 years of work.  
 

My entire reason for this new series is that anyone who watches will learn how to use Cakewalk 2021. Not Sonar like most of the other tutorials. And I’m trying to be as precise as possible.
What makes it so hard to teach is the fact there’s more options and menus than should be required for any one task. They seem to not remove old pieces of the program. I guess my fault seems I wanted to demonstrate all the options instead I should just go “This is how you do this”. And screw the other  6 ways you could also do it.  
 

[jkoseattle]

Wow, yeah, interesting problem. Like I said, I've been an exclusive Cakewalk/Sonar/Cakewalk/Bandlab user since 1989, when I bought my very first 286 tower with Cakewalk 3.0 for DOS as my very first installation. So when I say there are certainly workflow grooves I have gotten into, I'm not kidding. My knowledge of Cakewalk is like this fine hardened swiss cheese. Firm and substantial, but with these huge empty holes.

Maybe an approach like "Here is a thing I'm going to teach you about. This is what that thing is. Now, there are 9 ways of doing this thing. These are my two preferred ways. And if you are interested in the other 7, I will go over them very quickly at the end of this video." Also, I wonder if the folks at Cakewalk are hoping to deprecate some of those ways, and would be eager to point you to the ways they consider "best practice".

Being a Cakewalk native so to speak, and also a newly minted instructional designer after decades in customer support, I might be pretty enthusiastic about helping you out any way you might need. Sounds like a fun project.

[Noel Borthwick]

Undo history isn't saved so no way to know easily what went wrong. Its likely one of the operations with instrument track commands is my best guess.
And don't worry you aren't doing anything "wrong" there is no right or wrong approach as a user. No two users will use the app the same way. You just ran into a problem that we haven't discovered yet.

[jkoseattle]

@Noel Borthwick @John Vere Noel, perhaps this is an opportune place to explain a little about Append Instrument Track, which I am finding most useful in this whole multichannel world. However, John didn't know about it, and says it is always grayed out. For me, I have one set of tracks which share a plugin instance in which Append Instrument Track is also grayed out, mysteriously, and the other tracks which share different instances in the very same project have the option available. I can't see any difference, so why are some grayed out, or in John's case, why are they ALWAYS grayed out? 

As I understand it, all it does is create another empty instrument track using the same ins and outs. I just change the channels on the new track and I'm good to go. 

[John Vere]

So what you just did would add method # 10 for inserting instruments 😬 

FYI  if you just insert a new midi track and point it at the VST you wish to use this would be the typical users choice. This works for both instruments set up with multiple outputs and not. 
Don’t get channels and outputs mixed up. 

[msmcleod]

@jkoseattle - I'll do my best to explain...

As you know there are 3 types of tracks within Cakewalk:

- Audio Tracks
- MIDI Tracks
- Instrument Tracks

An instrument track is actually just a combination of a MIDI track and an Audio track, where the clips view shows the MIDI part, and the track view shows the Audio part.  The inspector shows an Audio/MIDI tab so you can get more granular control, but behind the scenes there is actually two separate tracks.

A Simple Instrument Track is an instrument track whose MIDI channel is set to Omni (i.e. all MIDI channels).  A Per-Output Instrument track is an instrument track with the MIDI channel set to a specific channel.  Other than that, they are exactly the same.

What Append Instrument Track does, is take the next highest available MIDI channel and the next  highest available Audio Output of the current synth, and assign them to the new instrument track.

So if your existing instrument track is set to MIDI Channel 1, and is getting its audio from Synth Audio Output 1 L&R,  appending an instrument track will create a new instrument track wired to the same synth instance, but set to MIDI Channel 2 and sourced from Synth Audio Output 2 L&R.   You can keep on going until you run out of MIDI channels or available synth audio outputs.

TIP:  Although you can use Append Instrument Track on an existing Simple Instrument Track, it's usually inadvisable, unless you first change the MIDI Channel of the existing simple instrument track to Channel 1.    You can do that in the inspector, when the tab is set to MIDI. That way,  the MIDI channel / Synth Audio Port assignment will match up as you continue to append tracks.  You can also fix-up the MIDI Channels afterwards if you forget.

When using Append Instrument Track on an existing split instrument track, it does the same, except you get a separate Audio / MIDI track created.  But the same thing happens: the MIDI track gets the next highest available MIDI channel, and the Audio Track gets its source from the highest available synth Audio Output.

Of course, as I mentioned in an earlier post - you still have to map MIDI channels to audio outputs internally within the plugin itself.  For synths such as Kontakt, you may also have to create the audio outputs within the plugin.

Append Instrument Track is greyed out if you've run out of MIDI channels or you've run out of synth spare synth audio outputs.

[John Vere]

17 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

An instrument track is actually just a combination of a MIDI track and an Audio track, where the clips view shows the MIDI part, and the track view shows the Audio part.  The inspector shows an Audio/MIDI tab so you can get more granular control, but behind the scenes there is actually two separate tracks.

This is a Simple instrument track. An Instrument track is just audio and needs a separate midi track. If you try to record to an Instrument track it records Audio. If you record to a Simple instrument track you get midi. 

What to me is wrong is the icons seems ***** backwards to what they should be. 

[jkoseattle]

@msmcleod Thank you so much for that explanation. I know that took a significant chunk out of your day to type up.

This is pretty close to my understanding, but my experience has not mirrored that exactly.

If I insert a new soft synth, my options are for Cakewalk to either create One Track to Rule Them All, or else a separate track for every potential output. If I choose the latter, then I get a shovelful of tracks, most of which I won't be needing. Yet. So I hide them, not knowing how many of those tracks I might need later if I add instruments to the soft synth. Once I have done this, however, Append Instrument Track is grayed out because CW has already made all the tracks so there's no more room. But if those tracks were hidden, you might forget they are there and try to Append.

But wait... THIS one I'm looking at right now has Append Instrument track grayed out, yet Track Manager doesn't show all these supposed other tracks, so it's clearly NOT filled up. I have to then manually add another track. PITA.

Also, it's cute how CW wants to help out by creating all these tracks, but it's actually more of a time suck than just Appending tracks as needed, because YOU CAN'T RENAME THE SOFT SYNTH FROM THE DIALOG. So all these lovely tracks CW makes for you ALL have to be renamed eventually. 

Not to mention you can't assign the audio output to a bus until after you've created the track, which means manually setting every one even though they are all coming through the same soft synth.... ??? Oh, and even Appending Instrument Track does not respect the output routing of the track you are appending from, so no matter how you slice it, you have to set the output bus one by one by one by one....

You said "the clips view shows the MIDI part, and the track view shows the Audio part". This confuses me. I'm using instrument tracks almost exclusively, and in Track View I have never seen the audio, only the Midi clips. It sounds like you're telling me there's a way to see the audio on these tracks?

Lastly, while we're on the topic of soft synths, what's the diff between VST2 and VST3. My plugin has both versions but I don't perceive any difference.

[John Vere]

Both the old dialogue and the new give you an option to choose how many instrument or midi tracks are generated. 
The default is the max and if you choose mono that doubles them. 
But all I do is this after I’ve inserted multiple outputs and I only say want 4 of them 

Hit F. This will spread them evenly so you can see them all

Starting with the first track I don’t want point the mouse at the track number holding Ctrl. It will turn orange 

Drag the mouse down the track numbers to select the unwanted tracks. Delete 

The tracks are created based on output order for most synths. The exception is VST like Addictive Drums which outputs seem pre assigned to kit pieces so hard to delete tracks.