MIDI Record Sync Issues - Wonder if anyone can help please?

[Eyuppp]

Hi all

I've been using Cakewalk for a very very long time (previous machine was XP running Cakewalk Homestudio with external sound modules).  I've recently upgraded to Windows 10 and installed Cakewalk by Bandlab to use with VST instruments but there is an annoying quirk I just cannot get to the bottom of.

I am using Win10 on a laptop with a Steinberg UR22C audio interface.  My midi keyboard routes through this into CakewalkByBandlab and I use purely VSTs.

I have set the ASIO drivers up and I'm happy with the latency BUT when I record midi the recorded notes are always too early!!!  I just cannot appear to find the problem.  Below is a screen shot:

In this instances I am recording purely midi, no VST instrument (its a midi track).  All my settings are given below:

I just cannot work out what the issue is.  I've adjusted the manual offset under the record latency adjustment as I thought that may have been the problem (first encountered using a VST but now I'm using a pure midi track, that isn't the issue).  What I don't understand is why is the recorded midi note BEFORE the beat?  The only thing I can think of is I'm hearing a delayed metronome click, but then how do I pull that forward?  As I said I've tried adjust the record latency adjustment (not sure why that would work but had to try it) and that made no difference.

Hope someone can help as I really like Cakewalk as I'm familiar with it.  But its looking like I'm going to have to uninstall and reinstall everything

Thanks

Jon

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Eyuppp
Made more polite

[Byron Dickens]

ASIO has nothing to do with MIDI.

[John Vere]

First, make sure you have the most up to date ASIO driver- https://o.steinberg.net/en/support/downloads_hardware/downloads_ur_c.html 

Your buffer setting is a bit high, change that to 256 or even better 128 . Generally we try as low a setting as possible until you hear artifacts or drop outs. Then you move it up one notch. Make sure your computer has been optimized for audio, Laptops can be iffy as they have more junk in the BIOS.

Run this to test- https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon 

  Otherwise your settings look correct to me. 

Because your using soft synths ASIO does matter in you system as that is what adjusts the timing offset for the playback of the VST which IS audio.

Usually having certain effects running will recording can cause latency issues so always bypass all effects while recording. 

 

[Eyuppp]

Thanks guys,

bdickens:

I think you misunderstood me.  In the example above I was recording midi on a midi track, whilst listening to the metronome via the UR22C.  Perhaps that doesn't use ASIO drivers but I thought with it being 'audio' from the DAW and not my keyboard then it would use the ASIO drivers.    In any case IF I set the metronome to output a MIDI tick and I record 'on the beat' then my notes line up with the beat, so it does appear audio related.

John:

 interesting you thought the buffer is set too high, I have it set so that there is little noticeable delay between pressing a key and hearing the sound (without glitching), so quite like you describe however I had had some problems when running lots of instruments (Kontakt) and that I was getting reported USB dropouts and the DAW had suggested increasing the buffer size (I'm running an i5 laptop, 8GB RAM and the UR22C MK2 audio interface which I thought might be sufficient in terms of CPU overhead).  I reduced the buffer so that my latency was 2ms or so, but that made no difference to the timing. 

I also updated the drivers (I was using 2.0.2 so updated to 2.0.4) still no improvement.  The following screenshot shows comparison of recording midi data on a midi track (not instrument track) when the click is routed via midi (first image) and when routed via audio metronome (second image):

I must admit it is better than when I first posted on this thread, and this is with low latency (about 3ms) but as you can see there is still an issue with the recorded note being 'early'..  this is really odd.  

I ran the latency monitor application you kindly suggested, and according to that my hardware is fine for audio editing.  However when I ran it whilst running a recording session in the DAW that flagged some interesting results:

Bit disappointing really.. up til now I've been writing music using hardware modules in Homestudio on an XP machine.. I've just started branching into writing for video and Homestudio couldn't manage it (old video codecs) so I've been using Cakewalk on my windows 10 general purpose laptop as that was up to date with video codecs, could import videos into CbB without issues and the quality of the VSTs have been really impressive (compared to the orchestral expansion card I have in my JV-1080, which is still pretty good).  I was thinking that perhaps VSTis might be better but I'm not so sure now.. I'm going to look more into the CPU throttling it suggested as I do have this feature enabled (which I'm surprised has been raised as a negative)

Looks like I might be going back to hardware modules.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Jon

[Eyuppp]

Quick update.  Switching to USB3 (I had been using USB2 due to stability issues) seems to have improved things:

I think I can live with this (looks like it might have been a case of creeping buffer adjustment).

[John Vere]

That's not much RAM for if you use a lot of Sample driven VST's. Keep an eye on the Performance module in the Control bar next time you run a project. Or Better yet open Task Manager.

This machine is an i5 with 16 GB RAM and it struggles with bigger projects. Thank goodness it's just an office computer but I like to do some editing and stuff on it.  I call it Studio B.. It's got an issue right now that seems to have come from installing software and then not uninstalling it properly.  That's what MS tells me. I use this machine to test stuff on before I install to my DAW. Looks like that was a good plan!

Anyhow I find you try a few tricks and eventually everything works and sometimes you really don't know what it was in the first place. It is the downside of computer based recording systems. 

[Eyuppp]

Thanks John.

I'm still not quite happy with my setup.  Yes I understand if running a lot of VSTis then the RAM will be an issue, but my performance monitor indicator isn't maxing out and I'm using one VST (keyzone classic).  No matter how small I tweak the buffer I just cannot get the recorded note to land at the same point as the metronome when using audio metronome via the UR22C... BUT if I have use the metronome midi click then my recorded midi is on the beat!  Its really quite off putting and I'm thinking of going back to using external modules (which is a shame as the VSTis offer some fantastic orchestral sounds).

But snapshot of my resource usage looks a bit worrying in comparison in that I'm maxing out the HDD.. I'll have to look into that

 

[Eyuppp]

Ok, had a quick look at my HDD usage.. still haven't got to the bottom of *why* its max'd at 100%, but whilst running some system tools the usage dropped right off so I took the opportunity to repeat the experiment:

 

As can be seen the midi is where it should be!  (using audio metronome).  Explains why I haven't had this issue in the past... doesn't fix my problem (yet) but gives me an idea of where to look (at whatever is stealing HDD resource)...  watch this space 

[Eyuppp]

Hi all,

Okay this seems to have fixed my issue, so thanks John for posting the task resource manager, I hadn't thought of looking at that.  My HDD was max'd out and after running some diagnostics, fixes and updates from the following link I was able to reduce the HDD disk usage which then meant my MIDI recordings were 'on the beat' and not early relative to the audio metronome.  Sometimes its the simplest! of things:

 

This was the link I referred to:

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/100-disk-usage-on-windows-10/17e3aa7e-4a2a-4927-97bd-bdb2f7dbe04b

I only need to run step 2. to resolve the issues which in summary are:

SFC /scannow
DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /CheckHealth
DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /ScanHealth
DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /RestoreHealth

Hopefully this will help others who are having similar problems with time travel on a system that should otherwise be capable.  My timing is reasonably good, I couldn't work out how I wasn't on the beat, let alone before!!! Windows *roll eyes*

Thanks everyone.

Jon

[Eyuppp]

Hi all

I thought this was worth an update... new PC, more RAM, better desktop spec... same problem!!!

However thanks to another thread I've resolved the issue (thankyou - David Baay).  To quote:

"Check whether you have a non-Zero 'Timing Offset' (different from Manual Offset) under Preferences > Audio > Sync and Caching. Positive values delay the audio  (including the metronome and playback of existing audio and soft synths) relative to MIDI grid, effectively causing audio from external hardware synths to be laid down earlier to compensate for MIDI transmission delay."

I changed this number and now my notes arrive on the beat and not due to some strange time space distortion timey wimey thingy of before the click!!!

 

The purple note is me striking a key on the click with no offset set.

The orange note is me striking a key on the click with 20ms offset set.

For information this is what cakewalk is reporting for my latency:

Initially I tried adjusting the record latency manual offset but this didn't bring the note forward onto the click.

I could be going on a wild goose chase but this does seem to have worked.  Bit more research methinks but itmight help someone.

 

[msmcleod]

If you've no audio tracks (or VSTi's), then using Full Chase Lock is what you should use for MIDI only.

Alternatively you could simply add a blank audio track and set your Synchronisation to Trigger & Freewheel.  That way it'll be using the audio device's clock rather than the Windows internal clock.