kitekrazy Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 11 minutes ago, David Jameson said: Nope -- I'm one of the developers of Gig Performer and we refuse to participate in the race to zero that goes on some parts of the plugin world. LOL I thought either that or a troll. I don't really care anymore. Many aren't happy as PA put your plugin in the race to zero. The intention was not buy it low in hopes of getting the next version free since few knew about it. At least you want to set yourself clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Jameson Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 31 minutes ago, Paul Young said: Many aren't happy Indeed --- neither were we - and we expressed our dismay. However, while we continue to hope that such users will eventually recognize the value of our product, including our commitment to continuous improvement, there will always be some who don't and there's simply nothing we can do about that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Walton Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 41 minutes ago, Paul Young said: LOL I thought either that or a troll. I don't really care anymore. Many aren't happy as PA put your plugin in the race to zero. The intention was not buy it low in hopes of getting the next version free since few knew about it. At least you want to set yourself clear. I only picked it up becuase of the sale. I knew v4 was on the way but until it sees a lower price point I won't buy it. It just isn't a product that has the value of the MSRP to me. It doesn't run as a VST in a DAW and needs a computer, other software and a hardware controler to be of much value. Once you have all that, you are in the Kemper or other high end unit range (for a guitar player) which frankly should be less prone to bugs/failure/etc. At the sale price, I might get some use out of it. I also didn't expect a free upgrade to v4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Brian Walton said: I only picked it up becuase of the sale. I knew v4 was on the way but until it sees a lower price point I won't buy it. It just isn't a product that has the value of the MSRP to me. It doesn't run as a VST in a DAW and needs a computer, other software and a hardware controler to be of much value. Once you have all that, you are in the Kemper or other high end unit range (for a guitar player) which frankly should be less prone to bugs/failure/etc. At the sale price, I might get some use out of it. I also didn't expect a free upgrade to v4. Impulse buy for me. I might think twice if ever bought again going through PA instead of direct. It's now about consumer trust. If it goes on sale or price drop will it be end of release? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Walton Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 8 minutes ago, Paul Young said: Impulse buy for me. I might think twice if ever bought again going through PA instead of direct. It's now about consumer trust. If it goes on sale or price drop will it be end of release? Even though they offered a better deal (for total cost...sale plus upgrade price) than direct for those that bought it on sale? I don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 7 minutes ago, Brian Walton said: Even though they offered a better deal (for total cost...sale plus upgrade price) than direct for those that bought it on sale? I don't get it. Don't get it. That's how you save money. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 hour ago, David Jameson said: Indeed --- neither were we - and we expressed our dismay. However, while we continue to hope that such users will eventually recognize the value of our product, including our commitment to continuous improvement, there will always be some who don't and there's simply nothing we can do about that. No doubt about that. Most people are unhappy after buying a plugin and 2 months later they have to pay for a new version. It's not so bad if there is still some support for the previous version and big fixes are only to buy the new version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Jameson Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 37 minutes ago, Paul Young said: Most people are unhappy after buying a plugin and 2 months later they have to pay for a new version. Gig Performer is not a plugin! As I said earlier anybody who bought GP3 from us at full price after March 1st (3 months before GP4 came out) got GP4 for free. There were several price tiers so that people who bought GP3 from us after various earlier dates got decent price breaks as well. It is simply absurd that a product that sells for $169 (and indeed valued even higher by more than a few people) should be available for free to someone who paid $30 (or even $60) a few months earlier. The deep discounting/price racing to zero happens with plugins because There are essentially uncountable numbers of plugins (including some damn great free ones) that pretty much do the same thing (how many different phasers, EQs, chorus effects, flangers, bitcrushers, distortion, etc., does anyone really need) and so for plugins the only differentiator often is just the price The software industry has trained people to believe that they're entitled to really cheap upgrades --- most of the industry can indulge this by just adding one or two features a year and a bit of GUI tweaking. By the time you get an equivalent number of new features to what we deliver, you will have paid a significant amount of money. It's just like the frog in the pot --- turn the heat up very slowly and the frog will never notice how much they're paying 🙂 Further, if you looked at the GP3 release notes history, you'd find that very significant new features showed up in pretty much every update we put out during the GP3 life. So the entry (or upgrade) price is not just buying you a "static" set of new features, but it's also an investment that will deliver you new stuff that will appear in perhaps ironically called minor updates. That ain't happening in those $29 plugins! By the way, we do it this way because, as touring musicians ourselves who also depend on GP for our own shows, when we add something new, often because we need it ourselves, we want to get it into the hands of everyone ASAP. Why? Because if we put on our consumer hats (we're just too, not a faceless corporation), that is how we would like to get our software updates. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Jameson Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Brian Walton said: It's now about consumer trust. Yes -- that's a big deal for us. We really care about our users trusting us For example, if you browse our forums where we occasionally recommend particular plugins, we've made it very clear that we do **not** receive any kickbacks for such recommendations. Our recommendations happen because we have actually bought and used such plugins ourselves and we think that others will benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Jameson Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Paul Young said: It doesn't run as a VST in a DAW and needs a computer, other software and a hardware controler to be of much value. Once you have all that, you are in the Kemper or other high end unit range (for a guitar player) which frankly should be less prone to bugs/failure/etc. Yes, it deliberately does not run as a VST in a DAW just like a DAW doesn't run as a VST inside Gig Performer! This was a philosophical choice and there's a rather wonderful guest article on our blog on this topic (https://gigperformer.com/music-software-has-failed-you-and-this-is-why/) We have numerous instances of guitar players who have dropped the Kemper, Fractal Axxe etc. . It is a complete myth that hardware devices like modern keyboards or guitar units are less prone to bugs/failures, etc. They are all running software as well. I have been in the audience at more than one concert where they had to stop in the middle because a keyboard failed! This topic is also the subject of a blog article (https://gigperformer.com/guitar-rigs-computer-based-vs-hardware-based/) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 So since I have GP3-PA the upgrade pricing in only through PA. That was the difference even though it is the same app. Does the non PA version authorize differently? Basically it's your own and not PA's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Jameson Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 4 hours ago, Paul Young said: So since I have GP3-PA the upgrade pricing in only through PA. That was the difference even though it is the same app. Does the non PA version authorize differently? Basically it's your own and not PA's? There are a few differences - our version has different templates and uses our own licensing system. The version we license to PA has templates that they wanted and uses their licensing system with the toolbar at the bottom. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Walton Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 11 hours ago, Paul Young said: Don't get it. That's how you save money. Well I purchased v3 on sale and think it is worth that. What I'm saying is I don't get the hate directed towards PA here, they offered both v3 AND v4 for less than you can buy it direct from the maker no matter which way you purchased it. I havne't heard a single person say they acdtually paid full price from PA and then didnt' get teh v4 upgrade that fit in the same timeframe as would have qualified for the same treatment direct. The fact is, PA provided the best pricing for both V3 and V4 for anyone that bought v3 as far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Walton Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 9 hours ago, David Jameson said: Yes, it deliberately does not run as a VST in a DAW just like a DAW doesn't run as a VST inside Gig Performer! This was a philosophical choice and there's a rather wonderful guest article on our blog on this topic (https://gigperformer.com/music-software-has-failed-you-and-this-is-why/) We have numerous instances of guitar players who have dropped the Kemper, Fractal Axxe etc. . It is a complete myth that hardware devices like modern keyboards or guitar units are less prone to bugs/failures, etc. They are all running software as well. I have been in the audience at more than one concert where they had to stop in the middle because a keyboard failed! This topic is also the subject of a blog article (https://gigperformer.com/guitar-rigs-computer-based-vs-hardware-based/) 1. I understand the idea, but for those of us that want to build a rig and then record with it. Recreating those "patches/presets" is a major burden that even some free alternatives can get around (https://kushview.net/element/) 2. I oversee a fleet of computers and have been a guitar player using technology for over 25 years. Yes the modern systems run on software and it is possible to fail (just like hardware is also prone to fail). But there are far more things that can go wrong between an OS, External Hardware for the sound card, hardware controler, Software such as GP and the plethora of VSTs running on it than there is with a purpose built machine that was designed with the specific harware and software in mind. I do agree with the notion that I can get excellent sound quality with the computer setup - but it certainly isn't necessarily a cost effective route and it is balanced with the risk of computer systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Bowman Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 No thanks. I'll stick with Cantabile Performer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Jameson Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Brian Walton said: those of us that want to build a rig and then record with it. Recreating those "patches/presets" is a major burden Except you don't have to recreate anything - that's the point. You simply run GP, route it to your DAW via either virtual audio or physical cables (depending on your audio interface) and record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Jameson Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Brian Walton said: But there are far more things that can go wrong between an OS, External Hardware for the sound card, hardware controler, Software such as GP and the plethora of VSTs running on it than there is with a purpose built machine that was designed with the specific harware and software in mind. One might think so except that if you were to calculate the overall MTBF for the combination of those individual components, I think you'll find that statistically the risk of something actually going wrong is not significant. Further, if the risk was that high, there would not be hundreds of thousands of musicians touring with computer-based systems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Jameson Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 4 hours ago, Brian Walton said: What I'm saying is I don't get the hate The "hate" is coming from people who feel that they should be able to just spend $30 and then be entitled to get a product that is conservatively valued at $150. They understandably feel this way because they have seen software plugin companies sell $200 plugins for $19, etc --- that's the problem with the price race to zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 50 minutes ago, David Jameson said: The "hate" is coming from people who feel that they should be able to just spend $30 and then be entitled to get a product that is conservatively valued at $150. They understandably feel this way because they have seen software plugin companies sell $200 plugins for $19, etc --- that's the problem with the price race to zero. Quotes from TheSteven In other words - if you bought it from us at sale (ie everyone) then no soup for you! Intro price (for new users) $169 is same price as Gig Performer from developer. PA didn't announce their 'deal' until after the developer's pre-release sale was over... and their (PA's) price is higher than the prerelease developer's price. Expected but still shitty There are other comments as well. The anger is with PA and not Deskew. You're theory does not always apply. Sometimes it makes more enemies than friends (using words like entitled) despite the irrationality of an end user. I don't think you have to defend yourself. I don't think anyone is at the point of "I'll never buy a Deskew product again". You were obviously more than fair for people buying direct from you. Unfortunately software often creates a lot of emotion and most of the time it's not rational. This drama needs to come to an end so we can go back to the Apple M1 thread. Edited June 17, 2021 by Paul Young 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Jameson Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, Paul Young said: The anger is with PA and not Deskew.......I don't think anyone is at the point of "I'll never buy a Deskew product again". Understood --- but actually, we got quite a few messages (and posts) from people saying exactly that 🙂 To be honest, I wasn't even sure I wanted to respond at all on this forum but I just felt I had to clear up some of the misunderstandings. GP4 works beautifully (and natively) on the M1 🙂 but you have to have M1 versions of the plugins to really get the best performance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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