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dogufo

problems with sound: kbd controller midi signals to cakewalk or buffering or processor, or... ???

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Hi, I´m new here; 🙂thanks for accepting me in the group. ... I am a kbd player; I´ve got a vintage synth Yamaha SY77 and a muted weighted kbd Fatar 88; both connected USB via MIDI interface Midisport 4x4 with notebook acer aspire (OS win 10 pro 64 bit) to DAW software bandlab cakewalk v. 27.01.0.085;

I don´t know if I´ve posted my question in the right place

when I play the kbds, using controllers also (sustain pedal in this case) at a certain point cakewalk midi signal gives me problem; in fact the sound blocks and contunues to play, even if I release the key;

sorry; is that a midi controller configuration of the synth problem or is that a problem regarding the software or the notebook processor?

thanks in advance for your advices;

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This sounds like it could be a midi issue between your keyboard and Cakewalk. If you record your midi into a Calkwalk Midi track and then look at the controller for sustain, or look in the event list, you may see that the sustain pedal got recognized as going on but not off. To debug it you would need a midi monitor program (like midiox) to see if the sustain pedal and your midi interface are sending all the correct data.

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Did you installed midisport drivers? If not I suggest to visit:

https://m-audio.com/support/download/drivers/midisport-windows-driver-v6.1.3

and install the driver.

Also, if you can, try to connect the midi interface into a different usb port (if available).

I am not sure but it seems a problem related to the communication between the midi interface and the computer.

Regards,

Giorgio

 

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I use a MidiSport 2x2 USB with Cakewalk and my computer and have never had a problem.

As @Giorgio Gabriel says, try moving it to a different USB port to see if you experience a difference.

You say "at a certain point", can you expand on that? Do you mean "random" or is it always after the same series of notes or in a particular phrase? Are Note Off messages being missed in the recorded MIDI data?

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I think you are saying you get "stuck notes" i. e. a note stays on after the key is released. Typically that occurs because the DAW is not receiving a note-off MIDI message. Usually this is a keyboard or MIDI interface issue, but you also threw in the sustain pedal and from your phrasing it would seem that the issue only happens if the sustain pedal is operated. Additionally I am reading that your issue happens with either keyboard regardless of which keyboard is attached to the sustain pedal. That would tend to indicate the sustain pedal may be failing to trigger a note-off when released. If that is the issue, then more likely than not the pedal has a physical issue i.e. is broken.

You can check to see that it is not some software issue with Cakewalk or the synths you are using by downloading MidiOx (free), to see what messages are being sent to the computer.  You can also check the event list view to confirm what Cakewalk is seeing.

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I had another thought about your issue. You might get that behavior if your sustain pedal has an incorrect polarity for your keyboard. That would be expected to produce a consistent error, rather than the intermittent problem you describe, but it might be worth checking to see if there is a polarity switch on your pedal that is in the wrong position or is loose.

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Posted (edited)

I remembered the thread because I was going to warn them about penalty's for over use of Smiley faces which is against the forums rules :) oops a smiley face , I didn't do that, must be the software...

 

Edited by John Vere
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On 4/9/2021 at 8:58 PM, Giorgio Gabriel said:

Did you installed midisport drivers? If not I suggest to visit:

https://m-audio.com/support/download/drivers/midisport-windows-driver-v6.1.3

and install the driver.

Also, if you can, try to connect the midi interface into a different usb port (if available).

I am not sure but it seems a problem related to the communication between the midi interface and the computer.

Regards,

Giorgio

 

thanks for your answer;

yes, I´ve installed the midisport 4x4 driver

yes, I think so too, but still haven´t solved the problem, even if it happens seldom during playing.

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On 4/13/2021 at 8:25 PM, slartabartfast said:

I had another thought about your issue. You might get that behavior if your sustain pedal has an incorrect polarity for your keyboard. That would be expected to produce a consistent error, rather than the intermittent problem you describe, but it might be worth checking to see if there is a polarity switch on your pedal that is in the wrong position or is loose.

thanks for your answer; I think it´s not a matter of polarity of the pedal hardware, because it always works good and the problem appears seldom. thanks again

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On 4/9/2021 at 9:36 PM, Colin Nicholls said:

I use a MidiSport 2x2 USB with Cakewalk and my computer and have never had a problem.

As @Giorgio Gabriel says, try moving it to a different USB port to see if you experience a difference.

You say "at a certain point", can you expand on that? Do you mean "random" or is it always after the same series of notes or in a particular phrase? Are Note Off messages being missed in the recorded MIDI data?

thanks for your answer; no it happens random, expecially when I use chords with more than 5 notes or if i use the pedal sustain; but it also happen when I play a solo for example.

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On 4/9/2021 at 9:47 PM, slartabartfast said:

I think you are saying you get "stuck notes" i. e. a note stays on after the key is released. Typically that occurs because the DAW is not receiving a note-off MIDI message. Usually this is a keyboard or MIDI interface issue, but you also threw in the sustain pedal and from your phrasing it would seem that the issue only happens if the sustain pedal is operated. Additionally I am reading that your issue happens with either keyboard regardless of which keyboard is attached to the sustain pedal. That would tend to indicate the sustain pedal may be failing to trigger a note-off when released. If that is the issue, then more likely than not the pedal has a physical issue i.e. is broken.

You can check to see that it is not some software issue with Cakewalk or the synths you are using by downloading MidiOx (free), to see what messages are being sent to the computer.  You can also check the event list view to confirm what Cakewalk is seeing.

thanks for your completa answer; no i don´t think that the pedal is broken, because it works perfectly when the interface and cakewalk are off;

yes, ...thank a lot! ... so I will download MidiOx  

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You may have CC-64  (sustain pedal) set as a SHIFT key within Preferences->Keyboard Shortcuts.

Make sure Controller is set to something other than 64, and the Enabled checkbox is unchecked, e.g.:

image.png.3178595d4448fd7d775c6db4786855bf.png

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On 4/9/2021 at 9:47 PM, slartabartfast said:

I think you are saying you get "stuck notes" i. e. a note stays on after the key is released. Typically that occurs because the DAW is not receiving a note-off MIDI message. Usually this is a keyboard or MIDI interface issue, but you also threw in the sustain pedal and from your phrasing it would seem that the issue only happens if the sustain pedal is operated. Additionally I am reading that your issue happens with either keyboard regardless of which keyboard is attached to the sustain pedal. That would tend to indicate the sustain pedal may be failing to trigger a note-off when released. If that is the issue, then more likely than not the pedal has a physical issue i.e. is broken.

You can check to see that it is not some software issue with Cakewalk or the synths you are using by downloading MidiOx (free), to see what messages are being sent to the computer.  You can also check the event list view to confirm what Cakewalk is seeing.

🙂 HI there from Italy, ...I have downloaded MidiOx as you suggested. Sorry for the boring question: if you are using this program too, would you please tell me how to check what messages are being sent to the computer? Thanks a lot in advance.  

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On 4/15/2021 at 10:26 AM, msmcleod said:

You may have CC-64  (sustain pedal) set as a SHIFT key within Preferences->Keyboard Shortcuts.

Make sure Controller is set to something other than 64, and the Enabled checkbox is unchecked, e.g.:

image.png.3178595d4448fd7d775c6db4786855bf.png

HI, thanks for your tip; so I made that change that you suggested me, but unfortunately the problem still remains 😧; when I play the kbd and release the notes sometimes the MIDI signal doesen´t get off and the sound keeps playing; I installed also the software MIDI-OX to try to solve the problem ... since I am a beginner ... please do you know, using this software, how to check what messages are being sent to the computer? Thanks a lot in advance.  

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2 hours ago, dogufo said:

HI, thanks for your tip; so I made that change that you suggested me, but unfortunately the problem still remains 😧; when I play the kbd and release the notes sometimes the MIDI signal doesen´t get off and the sound keeps playing; I installed also the software MIDI-OX to try to solve the problem ... since I am a beginner ... please do you know, using this software, how to check what messages are being sent to the computer? Thanks a lot in advance.  

Setting up MIDI-OX is certainly not for beginners, and would probably involve adding at least loopback device as well to intercept the notes. 

It would be better for you to detail exactly how your keyboards are connected within your system, and go from there.

Using keyboards which have their own internal sounds (e.g. SY77) brings an extra layer of complexity as you can easily get MIDI feedback problems. Some synths actually try to stop the feedback which, although is good in a way, confuses the matter because you don't always know the feedback is taking place - the result can be very similar to what you're describing.

If you are sending MIDI back out to your SY77, then you need to either turn off MIDI echo within Cakewalk, or set Local Off on the SY77.

Even doing this however, won't necessarily stop stuck sustain pedals. If you've stopped a project at a point where the sustain pedal event is down, or half way through a note playing, then it'll remain down/sounding after you've stopped. 

You need to either just press and release your physical pedal yourself, or make sure zero controllers on stop is enabled within preferences:
image.png.14718decc7c22c1f1472a04065691b0f.png

You can also click the MIDI panic button... which is used 99% of the time for stuck notes / stuck sustain pedals!
image.png.a04ed696402c2fa49fe90a96aa38c871.png

You mention that the stuck notes are random:

- is this always when using the sustain and never when you're not, and does pressing and releasing your sustain pedal at this point fix it?
- is it only when you've stopped playback halfway through a performance?
- do you have zero controllers on stop enabled within preferences?

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/23/2021 at 9:59 AM, msmcleod said:

Setting up MIDI-OX is certainly not for beginners, and would probably involve adding at least loopback device as well to intercept the notes. 

It would be better for you to detail exactly how your keyboards are connected within your system, and go from there.

Using keyboards which have their own internal sounds (e.g. SY77) brings an extra layer of complexity as you can easily get MIDI feedback problems. Some synths actually try to stop the feedback which, although is good in a way, confuses the matter because you don't always know the feedback is taking place - the result can be very similar to what you're describing.

If you are sending MIDI back out to your SY77, then you need to either turn off MIDI echo within Cakewalk, or set Local Off on the SY77.

Even doing this however, won't necessarily stop stuck sustain pedals. If you've stopped a project at a point where the sustain pedal event is down, or half way through a note playing, then it'll remain down/sounding after you've stopped. 

You need to either just press and release your physical pedal yourself, or make sure zero controllers on stop is enabled within preferences:
image.png.14718decc7c22c1f1472a04065691b0f.png

You can also click the MIDI panic button... which is used 99% of the time for stuck notes / stuck sustain pedals!
image.png.a04ed696402c2fa49fe90a96aa38c871.png

You mention that the stuck notes are random:

- is this always when using the sustain and never when you're not, and does pressing and releasing your sustain pedal at this point fix it?
- is it only when you've stopped playback halfway through a performance?
- do you have zero controllers on stop enabled within preferences?

 

HI again, thank you so much again for your feedback!

... OK then, I will not consider MIDI-OX by now since my knowledge in MIDI are near to zero;

... please I will try to answer to your questions:

first I specify that there is the "stuck notes" problem also if I don´t use the sustain pedal;

my two keyboards are so connected in the system:

I have one synth SY77 and one muted weighted master kbd Fatar 88, then a USB MIDI interface MIDISPORT 4x4, and notebook ACER Aspire 5750-6802, OS WIN10 pro 64 bit; Cakewalk v. 2021.04;

a. Synth SY77 connected MIDI B IN and OUT in the interface

b. master muted kbd Fatar88 connected MIDI IN A in the interface

 

1.  In Cakewalk, I tried to turn off "MIDI echo entry" of the track by clicking on it´s button, but I can´t do it! The two options are either "activated" or "automatic";  so I don´t know how to turn it off;

2. If in the synth SY77´s MIDI settings, I turned to "local off", but it doesen´t sound anymore; only the master controller muted kbd Fatar88 sounds; in this way I cannot play simultaneously the Fatar88 and the SY77; but even if local is turned to off, after playing the master kbd for 4 or 5 minutes using both single notes or chords, and without using the sustain pedal, the stuck notes problem when I release them comes as well; since that when I release all keys the sound is still playing and it stops only when I move the wheel of the voices; I tried to press the sustain pedal to check if it stops playing but it keeps playing;

3. I confirm that the zero controllers when play stops is flagged on in the preferences;

4. I also tried to use the MIDI panic button, but it doesen´t help 

5. I´ve never checked if the stuck notes problem comes when I playback a recorded performance, (I still haven´t recorded anything by now in Cakewalk), I can just testify that the problem comes when I play the keyboards and Cakewalk is in "standby"

6. when the stuck note/notes comes by playing, and I still continue to play, the following notes are not stuck when I release the keys

...thanks a lot again for your help and suggestions,

🙂 bye,

 

Edited by dogufo

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Posted (edited)
On 4/23/2021 at 1:21 AM, dogufo said:

I installed also the software MIDI-OX to try to solve the problem ... since I am a beginner ... please do you know, using this software, how to check what messages are being sent to the computer? Thanks a lot in advance.  

8 hours ago, dogufo said:

... OK then, I will not consider MIDI-OX by now since my knowledge in MIDI are near to zero;

How-to-check-incoming-messages-using-MIDI-OX mini-tutorial removed to reduce footprint.

Edited by User 905133
to add a period

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First thing I would try is to disconnect the keyboard from midi cable and play it as a stand alone instrument and see if there’s any stuck notes. 
if it doesn’t generate its own sound you could run the midi cable to the other keyboard. 
Troubleshooting is a process of elimination. 
You change out each device in the signal path until the issue goes away. 
It could be the keyboard as it is old. It could be a midi cable or connection. It could be the midi sport or its driver. It could be a loop back through Cakewalk. Which is another test 

Disconnect the midi cable from the midi input of the keyboard and use a VST instrument to play sound 

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