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Whole Mix out of PHASE 90 degrees, how possible?

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Hi there,

some guy from another forum made me notice that my whole mix seems to be out of phase of 90 degrees. Meaning everything arriving on the right headphone is a bit delayed compared to the left one.

So I exported only the drum track and is not out of phase by itself he says, but the whole mix with the other instruments everything is out of phase of 90 degrees.

How is this possible? 

I'm not really able to listen to that by myself but he used some tools/plugin to see this.

Now I didn't put any plugin, compressor, delay or effect , limiter on the busses neither on the master bus.

How can be possible? Might be some Cakewalk setting messed up?  Latency? (Shouldn't be)  a bug?  Stereo right and left setting? I have no idea.

Anyone can help please? This is the mix.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UZML-VlzERq9juPUAkf__sxQ-A3Rx646/view?usp=sharing

 

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Posted (edited)

Nice track. I reviewed it with Voxengo SPAN. (if you don't have this tool, you need it.) The phase correlation meter is fluctuating widely but this doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem.  You've got quite a wide stereo field here, instruments panned 100% left and right.

I used Channel Tools to flip the phase on each channel, and also to reduce to mono, to see if I could hear any obvious problems and, frankly, I  didn't.

So I suggest put an instance of Voxengo SPAN on your Master bus. Play the track, solo the busses, instruments, and watch the phase correlation meter and see if you can find an obvious problem.

Here's an anecdote for you: I had a track with a lovely stereo string pad played on my Korg M1 and I didn't understand why it sounded so whimpy. I SOLO'd it and checked its phase correlation, and sure enough, the "Stereo Ensemble" effect was generating a lot of out-of-phase movement between the two channels. Experimenting with the chorus parameters fixed the problem, and I was in business with a weighty string pad track that I had to reduce in volume in the mix. Sounded great.

Edited by Colin Nicholls
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42 minutes ago, Colin Nicholls said:

Nice track. I reviewed it with Voxengo SPAN. (if you don't have this tool, you need it.) The phase correlation meter is fluctuating widely but this doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem.  You've got quite a wide stereo field here, instruments panned 100% left and right.

I used Channel Tools to flip the phase on each channel, and also to reduce to mono, to see if I could hear any obvious problems and, frankly, I  didn't.

So I suggest put an instance of Voxengo SPAN on your Master bus. Play the track, solo the busses, instruments, and watch the phase correlation meter and see if you can find an obvious problem.

Here's an anecdote for you: I had a track with a lovely stereo string pad played on my Korg M1 and I didn't understand why it sounded so whimpy. I SOLO'd it and checked its phase correlation, and sure enough, the "Stereo Ensemble" effect was generating a lot of out-of-phase movement between the two channels. Experimenting with the chorus parameters fixed the problem, and I was in business with a weighty string pad track that I had to reduce in volume in the mix. Sounded great.

Thanks a lot I’m gonna try this tool.

I’m a bit relieved now.

he also mentioned the following thing about my mix, not sure what is he speaking about. Do you get the point?

 

6D3E9AC7-2DB3-4B33-9933-EE65AAE8F541.png

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I think it means that you have stuff either hard right or hard left (which is, indeed, what it sounds like) which can work but can also be a problem. Bass frequencies would be better served to be center/mono.

 

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12 minutes ago, Colin Nicholls said:

I think it means that you have stuff either hard right or hard left (which is, indeed, what it sounds like) which can work but can also be a problem. Bass frequencies would be better served to be center/mono.

 

Well yes, but I basically just followed what this guy is saying, not sure whether you agree but he’s a pro mixing engineer, not sure why that would affect the vinyl thing

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Well he's not wrong but opinions are free on the Internet. Including mine 🙂

Some reading material: Mixing for Vinyl: https://resoundsound.com/mixing-for-vinyl-dont-fall-for-these-traps/

Ozone Imager 2 (Free) VST: https://www.izotope.com/en/products/downloads/ozone_imager2.html

I recommend using a stereo imaging tool like the Ozone one. Learn about what the graphs mean.

Now compare your mixdown with other commercial releases and see how the graphs compare.

My impression is that you've followed the "100% Left or Right" rule a little too hard, and your mix is unbalanced, and fatiguing to listen to. It might sound fine mixed to mono or it might have strange empty spaces in the freq.spectrum.

I hope that helps.

Edited by Colin Nicholls
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Simply put a bad mix that doesn't translate to most playback systems.  As said way to much panning hard left and right. 

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Mautoalign by melda totally speeds up finding the track alignment you like the sound of most. 

Say you have 2 mics on a singer guitar player at once. The singing goes into the guitar Mic. The guitar goes into the vocal Mic.

The technique is usualtip slow down the vocal Mic so the vocals going into the guitar Mic are in sync with the vocalsin the guitar Mic or the reverse... Slow down the guitar Mic to sync with the guitar in the vocal Mic.

It's not super hard with two mics but line up 5 fun mics...

With mautoalign by melda you add it to the tracks and it creates multiple differing delay scenarios that you can compare easily to pick your favorite.

For anyone recording real musicians playing in a room together, this plugin or something like it is tremendously helpful.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, John Vere said:

Simply put a bad mix that doesn't translate to most playback systems.  As said way to much panning hard left and right. 

Have you watched the video? He says 2 guitars must go 100% left and right respectively.

So you are saying the opposite.

anyway in the LANDR AI master I’m using I did some test, and i figured out the master will put everything a bit more centered, so I can solve this issue at master level I think, with tightening the stereo spectrum.

 

 

 

Edited by Marcello

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Lots of people make lots of videos wherein they say lots of things.

 

In real life, sounds don't come to you only from the far left and far right. Think about that.

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Posted (edited)


 

Lots of people make lots of videos, that's correct, but who should I follow?

Some guys on a forum, with all maximum respect, or a professional mixing engineer who did lots of records like him?

It could also be, that depends from the kind of music you make? like for metal, post metal-rock is better to have guitars panned 100% L/R  but maybe you make jazz, or pop which works in a completely different way? Think also about that I think it's important.

ANd I finally confirm what the mixing engineer says about panning just by listening to one of my favourite albums.
If you play with the headphones removing one on the right hear then on the left, you can hear the guitars are 100% panned L/R indeed.
And I love the sound, this proves that this is probably due to personal taste and not a mixing mistake, as this way of recording is recommended by lots of mixing engineers out there.

This song: https://envy.bandcamp.com/track/light-and-solitude

Edited by Marcello

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Posted (edited)

 

 

15 hours ago, Colin Nicholls said:

Well he's not wrong but opinions are free on the Internet. Including mine 🙂

Some reading material: Mixing for Vinyl: https://resoundsound.com/mixing-for-vinyl-dont-fall-for-these-traps/

Ozone Imager 2 (Free) VST: https://www.izotope.com/en/products/downloads/ozone_imager2.html

I recommend using a stereo imaging tool like the Ozone one. Learn about what the graphs mean.

Now compare your mixdown with other commercial releases and see how the graphs compare.

My impression is that you've followed the "100% Left or Right" rule a little too hard, and your mix is unbalanced, and fatiguing to listen to. It might sound fine mixed to mono or it might have strange empty spaces in the freq.spectrum.

I hope that helps.

Anyway I played a bit with the mastering and maybe here something changed, would you please have a listen?

I made 3 different versions of masters, would be great to have your opinion on which sounds better to you

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jVf6VazZnH50Uxp7l9HZmhBi-iR9X9Jb/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XTANYQEPbhcYjceactLErcW7g8fB1PoX/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14yC6aXvXA2BGCVbZGUYAwDNsQrvpQTPT/view?usp=sharing

 

By the way in  the mix with SPAN Plugin when Routing Mid-Side Stereo, I see this, I noticed something wrong, in the tutorial they say that usually you don't want too much low end on the sides but more in the mid, also the side waveform should be a bit lower of the mid waveform,  while in my case as you can see from the graph is the opposite, the low end  on the sides overtake the low ends in the mid.

How to solve this?

I have recorded a temporary bass track in this mix with the guitar in stereo and with a plugin pitch shifter that makes the guitar sound like the bass, waiting for my friend to record the bass but in the meantime I wanted to have an idea.

So could it be that the bass is the issue! it seems too wide , Building too much on the sides, also the drum kick is too wide?

 

Look at the following 3 screnshoots, There's something wrong,

like if the bass and the kick drums are too wide, and not in the mid, they are equally balanced left and right but not centered.

Here it's everything together:

image.thumb.png.8bca7105c873e41c4ffe78ba5c6ebd5b.png

 

Here's the bass only playing, as you can see it pan centered!!

 

image.thumb.png.cc144447cafbd7c9377e2531f0d0408d.png

 

Here's only the drums, look at the kick

 

image.thumb.png.1d2d058628453b735b087705af8814c6.png

 

 

Edited by Marcello

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8 hours ago, Marcello said:

Lots of people make lots of videos, that's correct, but who should I follow?

Some guys on a forum, with all maximum respect, or a professional mixing engineer who did lots of records like him?

Well, I'm a guy on a forum AND a professional mixer, as well a mastering engineer who's mastered hundreds of tracks, one of which won an award, and one of which was nominated for the Hollywood Music in Media awards. So I've around the block a few times :) 

I've done a lot of research on stereo placement. My favorite tool for doing so is using an M/S encoder, putting the sides in mono in one track, the center in mono in one track, and comparing with exclusive solo. This makes it easy to tell who's doing LCR panning (which has more than one meaning , it also relates to live sound).

Doing this also reveals two major philosophical differences in mixing. For example in Madonna's "Ray of Light," the main guitar and synth are panned hard left and right. The sound seems like it explodes out of the speakers, and leaves lots of room for the center voice/kick. It sounds nothing like a live performance (of course, not that there's anything wrong with that). LCR is also good for giving a "vintage" vibe because with limited tracks and ancient mixing consoles, your only choices were left, right, and center. Another advantage of LCR is it translates well over different systems, because you're not dependent on nuanced stereo. 

When you listen to someone like Peter Gabriel, the sides are used more as a frame around the center to provide ambience. This sounds more live, and flatters the voice because it's the center of attention - it's not competing with the sides. If you hear the way Gabriel and Madonna handle the voice, there's no doubt who wants to put the center of attention on the vocal more than the production. I feel both artists made the correct artistic decisions. Or at least, that's the way I would have mixed them.

My personal reference for mixing is live music, for two reasons. First, when someone listens to my music, I want them to feel they're watching a performance.  Although I'll place sounds toward the left or toward the right (sometimes quite a bit toward the extremes), I never pan hard left and right because that's not the way live music sounds. Second, if I ever play the music live, I want to be able to reproduce it so it sounds at least somewhat like the album.

As to stereo wideners, I totally disagree it's a band-aid if it's based on mid/side processing, not phase differences, which seems to be what the guy in the video is referring to. No one considers mid/side miking (which uses the same principle as quality wideners) a band-aid or amateur technique, in fact, it's considered rather advanced because of the options it gives on mixdown. Of course, you don't want to "widen" things to 200% of the width, but just a little bit can open up some space in the center that would be difficult to do otherwise.

However, I prefer a more DIY approach, where I encode the signal into mids and sides, process those components separately, then decode them. For example, I just re-mastered an album by Martha Davis for vinyl. By separating it into mid and side components, I could make sure the bass was 100% centered, as well as keep extraneous bass out of the sides. By increasing the highs a bit on the sides, because highs are more directional, the apparent stereo width was greater. When done this way, it also collapses perfectly into mono, which I also consider important. 

I could go on but that's enough for now. Feel free to check out my latest album project (link below), which is selective in the approach to panning, and combines the two techniques. Some parts within a song are more centered; in some songs various instruments are panned much more to the sides. I feel the variety makes the album more enjoyable than if everything was panned hard left/right, or treated strictly as framing for the center. In other words, pan, don't pan, widen, narrow, whatever will best serve the song - which will tell you what it wants if you listen hard enough. And whatever the song tells you will be more appropriate than anything you read on a forum, or hear from a guy who knows how to post a video.

Good luck with your projects!!

https://youtu.be/ONQkKQcuego

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Marcello said:

Have you watched the video? He says 2 guitars must go 100% left and right respectively.

So you are saying the opposite.

anyway in the LANDR AI master I’m using I did some test, and i figured out the master will put everything a bit more centered, so I can solve this issue at master level I think, with tightening the stereo spectrum.

 

 

 

No I didn't watch the video. And all I'm stating is I don't like the mix choice. I have mixed 100's of albums in my day and yes it was mostly pretty traditional stuff, I did a few Rap albums and a didgeridoo however. But if you goal is producing POP music then that mix need a little work. Bottom end is over the top and Span is showing this clearly.

And I have nothing against panning hard left & right IF done a certain way. It was real common for me to do this with 2 guitars but they were always done by re- playing the exact same part as close as possible to create 2 tracks.  I often used this with acoustic as well as overdriven electrics. My approach to mixing comes from doing live sound for years. I am a huge fan of live music and that is what I try to capture in the studio as well. I think a few others have already mentioned this.

IN the real world you would never hear any sound just come from one side. And this is what it comes down to, My mixing goals are to recreate a live sounding stereo field. You goals might be more experimental which is fine by me.  I got in trouble once for panning a 3 piece horn section. It was just a little bit too. I thought it sounded bigger. They said no, they are a horn "section" one thing, not three. . 

Edited by John Vere

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Playing Devil's advocate, "professional" just means they got paid do do something, not that they're necessarily any good at it.

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17 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

Well, I'm a guy on a forum AND a professional mixer, as well a mastering engineer who's mastered hundreds of tracks, one of which won an award, and one of which was nominated for the Hollywood Music in Media awards. So I've around the block a few times :) 

I've done a lot of research on stereo placement. My favorite tool for doing so is using an M/S encoder, putting the sides in mono in one track, the center in mono in one track, and comparing with exclusive solo. This makes it easy to tell who's doing LCR panning (which has more than one meaning , it also relates to live sound).

Doing this also reveals two major philosophical differences in mixing. For example in Madonna's "Ray of Light," the main guitar and synth are panned hard left and right. The sound seems like it explodes out of the speakers, and leaves lots of room for the center voice/kick. It sounds nothing like a live performance (of course, not that there's anything wrong with that). LCR is also good for giving a "vintage" vibe because with limited tracks and ancient mixing consoles, your only choices were left, right, and center. Another advantage of LCR is it translates well over different systems, because you're not dependent on nuanced stereo. 

When you listen to someone like Peter Gabriel, the sides are used more as a frame around the center to provide ambience. This sounds more live, and flatters the voice because it's the center of attention - it's not competing with the sides. If you hear the way Gabriel and Madonna handle the voice, there's no doubt who wants to put the center of attention on the vocal more than the production. I feel both artists made the correct artistic decisions. Or at least, that's the way I would have mixed them.

My personal reference for mixing is live music, for two reasons. First, when someone listens to my music, I want them to feel they're watching a performance.  Although I'll place sounds toward the left or toward the right (sometimes quite a bit toward the extremes), I never pan hard left and right because that's not the way live music sounds. Second, if I ever play the music live, I want to be able to reproduce it so it sounds at least somewhat like the album.

As to stereo wideners, I totally disagree it's a band-aid if it's based on mid/side processing, not phase differences, which seems to be what the guy in the video is referring to. No one considers mid/side miking (which uses the same principle as quality wideners) a band-aid or amateur technique, in fact, it's considered rather advanced because of the options it gives on mixdown. Of course, you don't want to "widen" things to 200% of the width, but just a little bit can open up some space in the center that would be difficult to do otherwise.

However, I prefer a more DIY approach, where I encode the signal into mids and sides, process those components separately, then decode them. For example, I just re-mastered an album by Martha Davis for vinyl. By separating it into mid and side components, I could make sure the bass was 100% centered, as well as keep extraneous bass out of the sides. By increasing the highs a bit on the sides, because highs are more directional, the apparent stereo width was greater. When done this way, it also collapses perfectly into mono, which I also consider important. 

I could go on but that's enough for now. Feel free to check out my latest album project (link below), which is selective in the approach to panning, and combines the two techniques. Some parts within a song are more centered; in some songs various instruments are panned much more to the sides. I feel the variety makes the album more enjoyable than if everything was panned hard left/right, or treated strictly as framing for the center. In other words, pan, don't pan, widen, narrow, whatever will best serve the song - which will tell you what it wants if you listen hard enough. And whatever the song tells you will be more appropriate than anything you read on a forum, or hear from a guy who knows how to post a video.

Good luck with your projects!!

https://youtu.be/ONQkKQcuego

Thanks for the tips! 

Do you agree with this guy on my mix? Here's the track would you give a listen? Thanks

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cHksDmh6R7iRNWw2RIaCwfCXdzETeWa0/view?usp=sharing

 

image.thumb.png.b129dd738887e9d5a5aacb4c0ebfb408.png

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This sort of belongs in the Songs sub forum. That’s the best place for advice on mixing which is what this tread is about. 

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On 3/20/2021 at 12:21 PM, Marcello said:

 

image.thumb.png.b129dd738887e9d5a5aacb4c0ebfb408.png

Well, this sums everything up - from what I have heard in your mix. 

If you're using samples, make sure they are the same BPM as your project. Also make sure they are also line'd up with the grid. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Well, this sums everything up - from what I have heard in your mix. 

If you're using samples, make sure they are the same BPM as your project. Also make sure they are also line'd up with the grid. 

Consider I’m quite a newbie. If I understood well, the phase issue is when everything is too wide right? Apart from this issue one of the side parts coming from the headphones or left right speakers, is delayed compared to the other side. So is not a matter of performance correct? It’s something in the plugins or settings that is somehow delaying everything correct?

so what this has to do with the bpm sorry? I’m just getting more and more confused honestly

the drums is programmed midi drums, and the drum track by itself sounds ok, no issue, but together with the mix is delayed only on one side , left, of the headphones.

Is there a way to split the entire track in stereo? In order to see the two waves, left and right,  if they are aligned or not? I want to see this with my eyes, I cannot hear it.

Edited by Marcello

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