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Craig Reeves

Audiosnap and other workflow issues

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4 hours ago, bdickens said:

So, do you document things & send bug reports or just bitch?

This is exactly what I was talking about in my post and also the reason why many people who have problems don't "bitch", they'll just find something else to use, which is probably at least one of the reasons Cakewalk did poor business (along with poor marketing) when it wasn't free. Most people don't "bitch", they just use something else, and as you can see I literally just got finished documenting every one of the bugs I brought up not only this time, but in the past as well. Every one of those videos I posted are videos I have posted before on this forum. I do not just come on here and "bitch", I give full details on how to reproduce the bugs, but I STILL get flack from at least one person every time I do. The problem is that people like you don't actually read the full context of a post before commenting.

There is a history of people expressing their frustration with this DAW but then getting attacked by people like yourself for telling it like it is. I suspect this is why some of these bugs don't actually end up getting addressed, because folks don't want to deal with the bullying, the gaslighting and the attacks for bringing up legitimate problems. Because rather than simply addressing the fact that yes, X issue is indeed a bug I was able to successfully reproduce and therefore needs to be addressed, people will either literally tell you that you're imagining it (gaslighting), tell you it's not their problem, or tell you to "quit bitching". That needs to end if these problems are going to get addressed.

I want you to notice that hardly any of the bugs I brought up have even been addressed in this thread. All I get is "well, it's not my problem because I don't care about X feature", or "Cakewalk works fine for me". As Noel mentioned, people use Cakewalk for many different reasons. If all you're doing is tracking vocals or guitars, you're not going to run into problems with VST instruments or MIDI. If all you do is compose film and game music, it is unlikely you will run into problems with the Matrix, etc. I produce R&B and pop music, so I'm probably not going to run into articulation map issues because I don't use the articulation map often. 

I've never said that Cakewalk doesn't work at all. I said compared to the other DAWs I use, it is much buggier than those DAWs. It crashes far more often, and has way more broken features. That is not to say that Pro Tools doesn't have bugs too, or Ableton. They do. But they are far more stable and have far fewer broken features that don't work. As I've said multiple times already, I still prefer Cakewalk to both those other DAWs, but that doesn't mean there aren't areas I feel Cakewalk is inferior. 

The reason I single Cakewalk's problems out is because I'm on Cakewalk's forum.

We have to face the reality that Cakewalk's future is uncertain, and I want to continue to use this DAW. I actually want Cakewalk to survive because I love it. But we have to be honest and live with the fact that it is not good enough that Cakewalk be AS GOOD as Studio One or Cubase, it has to be BETTER. Because in order to catch up you have to be going faster. That's a fact. Cakewalk is already 5 laps behind in a 30 lap race. And Cakewalk has the potential to be that good. It's only real flaw are the bugs.

 

Edited by Craig Reeves
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18 minutes ago, Craig Reeves said:

This is exactly what I was talking about in my post and also the reason why many people who have problems don't "bitch", they'll just find something else to use,  I do not just come on here and "bitch", I give full details on how to reproduce the bugs, but I STILL get flack from at least one person every time I do. The problem is that people like you don't actually read the full context of a post before commenting.

 

I feel ya man, most active users here are die hards who majority probably had paid subscriptions or have been using CW since early 2000's like myself.  It's easy to ruffle feathers of those who have gotten comfortable with how things stand as the really tech saavy users will always have some ability to mitigate any bugs, for which they know how to smooth out kinks on their own.  So they become detached from the reality of average users experience that want a product that they can rely on.  So when someone comes in and reveals these very real issues and you express your frustrations, those who are able to work around and just deep into a relationship w/cw that they cant see the flaws anymore, they take offense to anyone who go around sounding like theyre calling someone's GF/BF ugly and undesireable.  

it's not you, and the only way things ever improve is by hearing the issues everyone encounters.  Or at least to get an answer and move on, whichever has your personal best interests in favor.  Sorry you're having such a negative experience!

-zero

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So in other words, no.

 

I'm not attacking you. I asked a simple, direct question to which you replied with a really long winded bit of defensive sniveling about fanboys and gaslighting and whatnot.

 

Plenty of people come on here with issues, ask for help, and get it. Sometimes within minutes. Go ask for help on some other forums and you get crickets.

 

If you put half as much effort into communicating with the developers as you do whining on youtube, you might get some of this stuff fixed.

Edited by bdickens
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50 minutes ago, Craig Reeves said:

This is exactly what I was talking about in my post and also the reason why many people who have problems don't "bitch", they'll just find something else to use, which is probably at least one of the reasons Cakewalk did poor business (along with poor marketing) when it wasn't free. Most people don't "bitch", they just use something else, and as you can see I literally just got finished documenting every one of the bugs I brought up not only this time, but in the past as well. Every one of those videos I posted are videos I have posted before on this forum. I do not just come on here and "bitch", I give full details on how to reproduce the bugs, but I STILL get flack from at least one person every time I do. The problem is that people like you don't actually read the full context of a post before commenting.

There is a history of people expressing their frustration with this DAW but then getting attacked by people like yourself for telling it like it is. I suspect this is why some of these bugs don't actually end up getting addressed, because folks don't want to deal with the bullying, the gaslighting and the attacks for bringing up legitimate problems. Because rather than simply addressing the fact that yes, X issue is indeed a bug I was able to successfully reproduce and therefore needs to be addressed, people will either literally tell you that you're imagining it (gaslighting), tell you it's not their problem, or tell you to "quit bitching". That needs to end if these problems are going to get addressed.

I want you to notice that hardly any of the bugs I brought up have even been addressed in this thread. All I get is "well, it's not my problem because I don't care about X feature", or "Cakewalk works fine for me". As Noel mentioned, people use Cakewalk for many different reasons. If all you're doing is tracking vocals or guitars, you're not going to run into problems with VST instruments or MIDI. If all you do is compose film and game music, it is unlikely you will run into problems with the Matrix, etc. I produce R&B and pop music, so I'm probably not going to run into articulation map issues because I don't use the articulation map often. 

I've never said that Cakewalk doesn't work at all. I said compared to the other DAWs I use, it is much buggier than those DAWs. It crashes far more often, and has way more broken features. That is not to say that Pro Tools doesn't have bugs too, or Ableton. They do. But they are far more stable and have far fewer broken features that don't work. As I've said multiple times already, I still prefer Cakewalk to both those other DAWs, but that doesn't mean there aren't areas I feel Cakewalk is inferior. 

The reason I single Cakewalk's problems out is because I'm on Cakewalk's forum.

We have to face the reality that Cakewalk's future is uncertain, and I want to continue to use this DAW. I actually want Cakewalk to survive because I love it. But we have to be honest and live with the fact that it is not good enough that Cakewalk be AS GOOD as Studio One or Cubase, it has to be BETTER. Because in order to catch up you have to be going faster. That's a fact. Cakewalk is already 5 laps behind in a 30 lap race. And Cakewalk has the potential to be that good. It's only real flaw are the bugs.

 

Need to reproduce these bugs for Bakers than they maybe can fix them. But about CAL scripst its not bug but CAL scripts aren't developed and abandoned and will be better sulotion in future.

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24 minutes ago, bdickens said:

So in other words, no.

 

I'm not attacking you. I asked a simple, direct question to which you replied with a really long winded bit of defensive sniveling about fanboys and gaslighting and whatnot.

 

Plenty of people come on here with issues, ask for help, and get it. Sometimes within minutes. Go ask for help on some other forums and you get crickets.

 

If you put half as much effort into communicating with the developers as you do whining on youtube, you might get some of this stuff fixed.

I'm not going to argue with you if you are not going to even read my posts. Accusing someone of "bitching" is not a "simple" or "direct" question. It is also a stupid-as-hell question as you could clearly see in my original post, I demonstrated no less than three specific issues with videos showing step-by-step on how to reproduce them. It is your problem if you're too lazy to watch them. 

I do not "whine on Youtube" as I do not post Youtube videos publicly. The videos in my post are and have been unlisted as they are specifically for this forum so people can view  how to reproduce the bugs. You do not need to tell me about troubleshooting software, as software development is my trade by day. Perhaps had you actually watched the videos you would know I was doing exactly what it is you accuse me of not doing: demonstrating bugs and giving specifics on how to reproduce them.  I have also done this in past posts. 

Edited by Craig Reeves
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21 minutes ago, solarlux said:

Need to reproduce these bugs for Bakers than they maybe can fix them. But about CAL scripst its not bug but CAL scripts aren't developed and abandoned and will be better sulotion in future.

I provide videos specifically showing how to reproduce the bugs. I really do not know how much clearer I can be in that regard because I'm literally showing you all step by step how to reproduce the bugs. I can't do anything about it if you all choose not to watch them.

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6 minutes ago, Craig Reeves said:

Accusing someone of "bitching" is not a "simple" or "direct" question. It is also a stupid question as you could clearly see in my original post, I demonstrated no less than three specific issues with videos on how to reproduce them. I do not "whine on Youtube" as I do not post Youtube videos publicly. The videos in my post are and have been unlisted as they are specifically for this forum so people can view  how to reproduce the bugs. You do not need to tell me about troubleshooting software, as software development is my trade by day. Perhaps had you actually watched the videos you would know I was doing exactly what it is you accuse me of not doing: demonstrating bugs and giving specifics on how to reproduce them.  I have also done this in past posts. 

So, have you submitted any bug reports?

The developers are the ones who need to reproduce them, not all the members of the public forum.

But of course, as a software developer yourself, you already know this.

 

Edited by bdickens

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3 minutes ago, bdickens said:

So, have you submitted any bug reports?

The developers are the ones who need to reproduce them, not all the members of the public forum.

But of course, as a software developer yourself, you already know this.

Yes I have. Where do you think those videos came from? I didn't just make them today. Had you actually watched them you'd know they were dated in the past. And as I'm sure you already know, anyone could watch those videos and reproduce the bugs, whether the person is a developer or not. 

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There's nothing wrong with venting when things aren't working for you - we all do it - and it's certainly fair enough. I've seen you post enough stuff around the forums to definitely not discount what you're saying as a troll, or the rest of us just sticking our fingers in our ears and going "lalala not happening, this guy doesn't know what he's doing."  I believe you're genuinely having some issues there, but I also think  that because you're frustrated that you're not taking all of the steps to fix stuff either. Not having a dig or trying to be insulting here, apologies if it comes off that way.

There's been a few guys with some horrible problems that a lot of us haven't seen before that weren't able to be reproduced, but if you have a scan through the product release threads, because they were reported and documented correctly (not just videos, but environmental settings such as hardware, drivers, installed software, etc.) then it was sorted out - you'll even see Noel mention how he's hopped on to a Teamviewer session to to run tests to get to the bottom of it all, and yes - sometimes this HAS turned out to be an obscure bug or something else that's exposing a problem that most of us aren't seeing. I don't know any other DAW company that does anything like that without charging you a crazy premium for it.

Showing the result of something only helps so much. "Check it out, when I press Alt+A the entire screen turns purple - this is buggy!!" only shows that - yes, that's really weird and looks like a bug - but not WHY. I think this is what @bdickens was getting it - if you don't work with support to get to the bottom of it and just complain about the outcome, how could they know what the issue is?

That sndfile.dll Waves issue I mentioned was a good one. On first glance, CbB is rubbish because it's not able to copy over a file properly and you have to tell it to skip a file during installation. Looks like a bug or horrendous UI programming. But in actual fact, it was a bug in a specific product that is only triggered by a certain sequence of events, and it it's actually getting fixed by the people who can actually do anything about it - the CbB team have no control over it.

You see what I'm getting at?  You have real problems there (outside of certain shortcomings with things that need to be looked at, eg: Audiosnap, CAL, etc.) but whatever is going on in your environment won't get fixed if all we see is the result, and not able to get to the cause. Like I said, I'd be gone if my system was anything like you're experiencing, and if CbB was the app I would really prefer to use, I'd be making Support absolutely sick of my name in less than a week. ;) 

(Reiterating again, I'm not trying to poke the bear or be patronizing or anything like that here!)

Edited by Lord Tim
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9 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

There's nothing wrong with venting when things aren't working for you - we all do it - and it's certainly fair enough. I've seen you post enough stuff around the forums to definitely not discount what you're saying as a troll, or the rest of us just sticking our fingers in our ears and going "lalala not happening, this guy doesn't know what he's doing."  I believe you're genuinely having some issues there, but I also think  that because you're frustrated that you're not taking all of the steps to fix stuff either. Not having a dig or trying to be insulting here, apologies if it comes off that way.

There's been a few guys with some horrible problems that a lot of us haven't seen before that weren't able to be reproduced, but if you have a scan through the product release threads, because they were reported and documented correctly (not just videos, but environmental settings such as hardware, drivers, installed software, etc.) then it was sorted out - you'll even see Noel mention how he's hopped on to a Teamviewer session to to run tests to get to the bottom of it all, and yes - sometimes this HAS turned out to be an obscure bug or something else that's exposing a problem that most of us aren't seeing. I don't know any other DAW company that does anything like that without charging you a crazy premium for it.

Showing the result of something only helps so much. "Check it out, when I press Alt+A the entire screen turns purple - this is buggy!!" only shows that - yes, that's really weird and looks like a bug - but not WHY. I think this is what @bdickens was getting it - if you don't work with support to get to the bottom of it and just complain about the outcome, how could they know what the issue is?

That sndfile.dll Waves issue I mentioned was a good one. On first glance, CbB is rubbish because it's not able to copy over a file properly and you have to tell it to skip a file during installation. Looks like a bug or horrendous UI programming. But in actual fact, it was a bug in a specific product that is only triggered by a certain sequence of events, and it it's actually getting fixed by the people who can actually do anything about it - the CbB team have no control over it.

You see what I'm getting at?  You have real problems there (outside of certain shortcomings with things that need to be looked at, eg: Audiosnap, CAL, etc.) but whatever is going on in your environment won't get fixed if all we see is the result, and not able to get to the cause. Like I said, I'd be gone if my system was anything like you're experiencing, and if CbB was the app I would really prefer to use, I'd be making Support absolutely sick of my name in less than a week. ;) 

Which is exactly why I post videos on how to reproduce the bug. Notice that I never actually say that I am CERTAIN it is a bug. That's the whole point of providing instructions on how to reproduce the error. Because if others are unable to reproduce the bug, then it is something local to my system or user error that is the cause. For instance, the bug with quick-group latch automation I have tried on four different systems and multiple different versions of Cakewalk. I was able to reproduce the problem. But you cannot dismiss the problem I'm having as specific to something I'm doing wrong until it is demonstrated that others cannot reproduce the error. 

And as far as finding out why a bug exists, you don't do that until you have tried reproducing the error. 

And I honestly can't believe you're defending @bdickens either. Dismissing someone expressing legitimate concerns about Cakewalk as "bitching" is toxic. And he was "getting at" anything but being an a-hole. I've seen some of his past posts. He's like that toward others, not just me.

Edited by Craig Reeves
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5 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

There's nothing wrong with venting when things aren't working for you - we all do it - and it's certainly fair enough. I've seen you post enough stuff around the forums to definitely not discount what you're saying as a troll, or the rest of us just sticking our fingers in our ears and going "lalala not happening, this guy doesn't know what he's doing."  I believe you're genuinely having some issues there, but I also think  that because you're frustrated that you're not taking all of the steps to fix stuff either. Not having a dig or trying to be insulting here, apologies if it comes off that way.

There's been a few guys with some horrible problems that a lot of us haven't seen before that weren't able to be reproduced, but if you have a scan through the product release threads, because they were reported and documented correctly (not just videos, but environmental settings such as hardware, drivers, installed software, etc.) then it was sorted out - you'll even see Noel mention how he's hopped on to a Teamviewer session to to run tests to get to the bottom of it all, and yes - sometimes this HAS turned out to be an obscure bug or something else that's exposing a problem that most of us aren't seeing. I don't know any other DAW company that does anything like that without charging you a crazy premium for it.

Showing the result of something only helps so much. "Check it out, when I press Alt+A the entire screen turns purple - this is buggy!!" only shows that - yes, that's really weird and looks like a bug - but not WHY. I think this is what @bdickens was getting it - if you don't work with support to get to the bottom of it and just complain about the outcome, how could they know what the issue is?

That sndfile.dll Waves issue I mentioned was a good one. On first glance, CbB is rubbish because it's not able to copy over a file properly and you have to tell it to skip a file during installation. Looks like a bug or horrendous UI programming. But in actual fact, it was a bug in a specific product that is only triggered by a certain sequence of events, and it it's actually getting fixed by the people who can actually do anything about it - the CbB team have no control over it.

You see what I'm getting at?  You have real problems there (outside of certain shortcomings with things that need to be looked at, eg: Audiosnap, CAL, etc.) but whatever is going on in your environment won't get fixed if all we see is the result, and not able to get to the cause. Like I said, I'd be gone if my system was anything like you're experiencing, and if CbB was the app I would really prefer to use, I'd be making Support absolutely sick of my name in less than a week. ;) 

Yes and I 'm very happy to see all these massive bug fixes what have already done. Bakers do work very well and i 'm sure also these specific problems will be fixed.

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Just now, Craig Reeves said:

Which is exactly why I post videos on how to reproduce the bug. Notice that I never actually say that I am CERTAIN it is a bug. That's the whole point of providing instructions on how to reproduce the error. Because if others are unable to reproduce the bug, then it is something local to my system or user error that is the cause. For instance, the bug with quick-group latch automation I have tried on four different systems and multiple different versions of Cakewalk. I was able to reproduce the problem. But you cannot dismiss the problem I'm having as specific to something I'm doing wrong until it is demonstrated that others cannot reproduce the error. 

And as far as finding out why a bug exists, you don't do that until you have tried reproducing the error. 

And I honestly can't believe you're defending @bdickens either. Dismissing someone expressing legitimate concerns about Cakewalk as "bitching" is toxic. And he was "getting at" anything but being an *****. I've seen some of his past posts. He's like that toward others, not just me.

You need also project file and system specs, : )

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We all here good community and we can help eaqch other and also glad to see some bug reports because bug tracking is very valuable thing because bugs can be listed and fixed later.

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4 minutes ago, solarlux said:

You need also project file and system specs, : )

As I mentioned before, that's not necessary if the developers can reproduce the error themselves. That means it isn't specific to one's system. Stuff like that only really needs to be done if others can't reproduce the problem. If everybody no matter what system they're on can reproduce the error, that means it doesn't matter what system they're on. Noel nor any of the developers have ever asked me to provide details on my system. But they have asked me to provide instructions on how to reproduce the problem, which I provide.

It is generally poor form to ask someone to provide their system specs before even trying to reproduce the problem yourself. 

Edited by Craig Reeves
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18 minutes ago, Craig Reeves said:

Which is exactly why I post videos on how to reproduce the bug. Notice that I never actually say that I am CERTAIN it is a bug. That's the whole point of providing instructions on how to reproduce the error. Because if others are unable to reproduce the bug, then it is something local to my system or user error that is the cause. For instance, the bug with quick-group latch automation I have tried on four different systems and multiple different versions of Cakewalk. I was able to reproduce the problem. But you cannot dismiss the problem I'm having as specific to something I'm doing wrong until it is demonstrated that others cannot reproduce the error. 

And as far as finding out why a bug exists, you don't do that until you have tried reproducing the error. 

And I honestly can't believe you're defending @bdickens either. Dismissing someone expressing legitimate concerns about Cakewalk as "bitching" is toxic. And he was "getting at" anything but being an a-hole. I've seen some of his past posts. He's like that toward others, not just me.

 

I'm not really defending or condoning anything here, just to be clear - everyone's post and the tone of their post is their own. But the point he was making kind of is correct, regardless of how the tone is presented. 

But again, the videos can only go so far. That's showing that something isn't working correctly, not WHY. This is a peer-to-peer forum and we're lucky enough for the devs to stick their heads in fairly frequently and help when they can, but nothing we say here gets put into the system unless a dev happens to see it and log it.  Just looking at the bug list Noel was talking about from the last 3 years, if there's been thousands of long standing SONAR bugs addressed since then, think about how much is in the backlog they're getting to. If something isn't in the system and being allocated and prioritised, you don't know if anyone has logged your issue from a video on a user forum at all. Maybe it has? You just don't know.

Again, sorry if anything I've posted is coming across as antagonistic or patronising at all - it's really not the intent. I just think there's other avenues you need to go down before you up-end your desk and write stuff off.

Edited by Lord Tim

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Just now, Craig Reeves said:

As I mentioned before, that's not necessary if the developers can reproduce the error themselves. That means it isn't specific to one's system. Stuff like that only really needs to be done if others can't reproduce the problem. If everybody no matter what system they're on can reproduce the error, that means it doesn't matter what system they're on. Noel nor any of the developers have ever asked me to provide details on my system. But they have asked me to provide instructions on how to reproduce the problem, which I provide.

Yes but would be cool project file with all what you tryed reproduce this in video. Need constructive report. I understand them and they need project file and info about your envrionment and some other aspects.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

 

I'm not really defending or condoning anything here, just to be clear - everyone's post and the tone of their post is their own. But the point he was making kind of is correct, regardless of how the tone is presented. 

But again, the videos can only go so far. That's showing that something isn't working correctly, not WHY. This is a peer-to-peer forum and we're lucky enough for the devs to stick their heads in fairly frequently and help when they can, but nothing we say here gets put into the system unless a dev happens to see it and log it.  Just looking at the bug list Noel was talking about from the last 3 years, if there's been thousands of long standing SONAR bugs address since then, think about how much is in the backlog they're getting to. If something isn't in the system and being allocated and prioritised, you don't know of anyone has logged your issue from a video on a user forum at all. Maybe it has? You just don't know.

Again, sorry if anything I've posted is coming across as antagonistic or patronising at all - it's really not the intent. I just think there's other avenues you need to go down before you up-end your desk and write stuff off.

Yes and Cakewalk now is in new Home and new priorities and main priority is bug fixes but Developers need more info than video where bug showed. Here also people mostly with expierence and they don't need ableton or something like that Cakewalk in my eyes is much better than ableton and in future it will become more stable because we users need report bugs and help Bakers to know what need to fix with detailed information about all of bugs with what we encounter.We all need to be involved and that is very good.

Edited by solarlux

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I will say this though, nobody should feel like they shouldn't be able to bring up problems with CbB here at all. CbB most certainly does have bugs, and certain environmental settings can expose them or make it look like it's a CbB thing. Nobody should feel like this (or any) software is above criticism just because someone else isn't experiencing the problem. It's never going to be better if we just stick our head in the sand, right?

Let's be methodical and constructive so we can be helpful before anything else. And definitely don't discount the usefulness of Support. As peers here, we can only do so much, even the experienced users.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

 

I'm not really defending or condoning anything here, just to be clear - everyone's post and the tone of their post is their own. But the point he was making kind of is correct, regardless of how the tone is presented. 

But again, the videos can only go so far. That's showing that something isn't working correctly, not WHY. This is a peer-to-peer forum and we're lucky enough for the devs to stick their heads in fairly frequently and help when they can, but nothing we say here gets put into the system unless a dev happens to see it and log it.  Just looking at the bug list Noel was talking about from the last 3 years, if there's been thousands of long standing SONAR bugs address since then, think about how much is in the backlog they're getting to. If something isn't in the system and being allocated and prioritised, you don't know of anyone has logged your issue from a video on a user forum at all. Maybe it has? You just don't know.

Again, sorry if anything I've posted is coming across as antagonistic or patronising at all - it's really not the intent. I just think there's other avenues you need to go down before you up-end your desk and write stuff off.

There are specific instructions in the videos on how to reproduce the bugs. It isn't just "this isn't working", but I'm pointing out exactly what one can do to bring about the bug himself.  Again, you keep mentioning "why" but knowing WHY a bug exists is the developer's job once they go through the code and find the bug. Everything starts with REPRODUCING the bug, THEN you pinpoint the cause. You're putting the cart before the horse, Tim. And @bdickens was literally accusing me of just coming on here and whining and not reporting bugs, when I literally put videos up SHOWING exactly what the bug is and how to reproduce it. The Bakers have fixed bugs I've reported in this manner and have never had an issue with the way I report bugs. He clearly did not watch the videos, so there is no point in you defending what he said.

And it is indeed true that the Bakers have addressed many bugs. I acknowledge that. I wouldn't be here if they just didn't care at all. As I mentioned before, I left other DAWs to come here for a reason and I would not have posted what I did in the OP if I didn't think anyone cared. I have WAY, WAY, WAY more issues with Ableton but you don't see me over there now do you?

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Lord Tim said:

I will say this though, nobody should feel like they shouldn't be able to bring up problems with CbB here at all. CbB most certainly does have bugs, and certain environmental settings can expose them or make it look like it's a CbB thing. Nobody should feel like this (or any) software is above criticism just because someone else isn't experiencing the problem. It's never going to be better if we just stick our head in the sand, right?

Well people do very often feel like they can't bring up problems with CbB without being vilified for it. It's a serious problem and has been for a long time. As I said I've used Cakewalk for 21 years. I don't need to prove my sincerity to nobody...

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