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Josh Wolfer

Feature: Partial clip gain via control shortcut + selection

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*edit
Looks like this can partially be done already via the method mentioned in the second comment. woot. So the this request really is about having a method to quickly adjust clip gain in selected parts, out side of the clip gain envelope.


I just discovered that you can hold control and click drag from the middle of a clip and instantly change the overall clip gain. SUPER HANDY!!! No more having to middle click -> clip gain automation.

What would be even better is if I could make a selection of part of a clip and then control+click drag would change just the gain for the selection, eliminating the need to add or adjust nodes. 

And what'd be even better is if for this method of gain editing, worked outside of the clip gain envelope!

There are two distinct reasons why Clip gain needs to be modified:

1. Static adjustments (My #1 repeated workflow). 
2.  Automate a slope over time or more complex gain automation over time.

There's would be better separated into 2 workflows within Cakewalk, instead of the one-size-fits-all approached. More details below.
 

1. Adjust a quieter or louder section of a clip to be more even with the rest of the clip. This is basic static, up or down.  

image.png.4c36057aaec7c5e0e62390ec692f44a5.png

For something like this, why am I messing around with nodes? I should be able to select the area and control click it to move the whole selection up or down. 
I suggest for an edit like this, you just:

  • Change the clip drawing somehow to visually show that it has been modified from the original (maybe a different outline, or shaded color)
  • Show the wave form change (this already happens thanks to the last update)
  • Not show this change as part of the clip gain automation.
  • This should not be restricted to the +6dB limitation of clip gain automation. You should let me boost to my hearts content. This is a 64 bit internal audio engine. Cakewalk already supports 32bit float clips being beyond "0dB". This should be relatively trivial to implement.

Adjust the gain over time (automation)

image.png.36cdf43a2f48096a2d2a510b58b3dc23.png

This type of gain automation needs to have a visual line to track complex changes over time. There is no better way to do this kind of automation than how it is already implemented in Cakewalk.

  • Having a 6dB cap on this makes sense, because for the most part, once your clip is leveled the way you want it, you don't really need to automate more than 6dB up in a slow. I'd personally say 10dB is more reasonable, but that's just my opinion. 

 

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE you if you implemented this. This is one of the biggest hindrances I run into when doing film sound. I have to make A LOT of gain edits. Some people work around this by splitting the clip apart (alt clicking) and then adjusting the clip gain on the split sections. This works, but it's a pain in the butt still. Optimal work flow, would just be to use the partial selection on the clip and adjust from there using control click. 

Please consider. I have talked to many people on the forum and they seem to also agree this is a sticking point. 

Edited by Josh Wolfer

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I was just about to say what mark just did.

Drag to select/then drag up or down. this is using the smart tool.

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Okay, so that works about 1/2 way for what I'd like. 

I didn't notice that behavior before, because I was holding control and clicking from the center, and you have to put the mouse on the top of the clip frame and drag from there. That is better. 

Now if there was a way to adjust the gain of the clip, outside of the gain automation, that'd be the final piece that would make this a perfect workflow for me. Clip Gain automation for movements over time and this new method for adjusting gain of a selection (without creating automation nodes and lines all over the place.).

Thanks for the tip on dragging from the top, that gets me 1/2 way to where I'd like it to be and greatly improves the work flow.

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On 6/25/2020 at 9:03 PM, Josh Wolfer said:

What would be even better is if I could make a selection of part of a clip and then control+click drag would change just the gain for the selection, eliminating the need to add or adjust nodes. 

And what'd be even better is if for this method of gain editing, worked outside of the clip gain envelope!

If "worked outside of the clip gain envelope" means without switching focus to clip automation, then yes, I was asking for this as well! I wouldn't trouble them guys but since we already can do ctrl+drag to change the clip gain in focus to clips, it's just a matter to add the option to when there is a selection then affect only the selected area. That's one of three clicks less when doing quick gain-fix, basically 33% less clicking in the workflow :). Come on guys, look the new version 5 of Studio One how easy you do this gain fix there, they allow even transform tool on the envelopes 😲.

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If you have multiple envelopes in the same clip, just doing it without changing focus to clip automation would result in dragging all envelopes present in said clip. So, I would think that amounts to confusing behavior.

If you want to save the mouse trip over to the envelope selection menu, clicking on it to display the menu and then selecting automation-clip gain, you could just shift-click on the gain envelope so this will change focus to it (or any other envelope you shift-click on to), adjust, and then shift-click again on the clip itself to focus on it again. Its really fast and just a couple of clicks more with modifier.

 

Hope this helps.

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Yes, but clip can have only one gain envelope, as fas as I'm aware. And we already have this brilliant Ctrl+drag shortcut to adjust the clip gain without even changing the focus. And I'm only about a quick gain fix when's necessary rather than heavy workload with all the different envelopes, something like dragging just the selection here:

 

Edited by chris.r
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19 hours ago, Josh Wolfer said:

OMG. This Studio One work flow clip is a dream compared to how Cakewalk does it currently.

Well yes, we have it in Cakewalk once you change the focus to gain envelope but then the waveform becomes greyed out and of course there comes additional clickology so you can't do a quick clip gain change of a small selection in one-two clicks. And when focus set to clips, having ctrl+drag to adjust clip gain is so brilliant, but not having the additional possibility for selecting just a fragment of a clip and ctrl+drag to change clip gain of only the selection, is a missed opportunity imo.

Studio One is not my thing as I need so much more in MIDI department but I really enjoy their excellent workflow ideas.

Edited by chris.r

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10 hours ago, Josh Wolfer said:

OMG. This Studio One work flow clip is a dream compared to how Cakewalk does it currently.

 

I just watched this video and Its pretty much the exact same way in Cakewalk. Unless i'm misunderstanding.

That drag/select menovour (using the smart tool) 

On 6/26/2020 at 12:52 PM, Josh Wolfer said:

Now if there was a way to adjust the gain of the clip, outside of the gain automation, that'd be the final piece that would make this a perfect workflow for me.

This is what i don't understand. But you can always click on a spot outside the gain automation and then that spot will become highlighted/selected and the same drag up/down procedure will work. 

 

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Quote

This is what i don't understand. But you can always click on a spot outside the gain automation and then that spot will become highlighted/selected and the same drag up/down procedure will work. 

A big part of it is that the gain automation nodes get royally mess up, especially when you're working in multiple clips with cross fades. The edge nodes get covered, and impossible to drag at times unless you go through some gymnastics. Also, because boost is limited to 6dB, there are times where I have to bounce a clip multiple times to get it to where it needs to be. 

And yeah, you could offline process the whole clip and gain it massively all at once, but it's just a slow workflow. 

It's clear I'm in the minority on this one. Is what it is. 

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On 7/15/2020 at 12:09 PM, chuckebaby said:

This is what i don't understand. But you can always click on a spot outside the gain automation and then that spot will become highlighted/selected and the same drag up/down procedure will work.

What I like in the S1 example is that after activating the gain env. (and we have shift+drag that is awesome in Cakewalk), you don't have to switch back and forth between clip gain and focus to clips, to edit the gain env. You just do it right away in the clip focus.

Mind you this is not about the regular working with automation like volume, pan or any other. This is about fast clip gain workflow, like a quick fix of a spike or correcting uneven loudness of certain words, for example, before you proceed with mixing (compression etc). Just select a portion of a clip and drag it up or down to adjust the gain, in Cakewalk it's almost there thanks to dynamic waveform, but not there yet because when focus to clips, ctrl+drag works only on the whole clip gain envelope :). What's missing is the select then ctrl+drag to alter only the selection.

In S1 there's even transform tool on the envelopes, how cool is that!

Edited by chris.r

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I'd like to have a keyboard shortcut to shift between Clip and Clip Gain mode.

I've found that Shift T, Shift T, is a way to get it back to Clip mode, but I haven't found a way to put it easily in Clip Gain mode.

 

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1 hour ago, rejkmackan said:

I'd like to have a keyboard shortcut to shift between Clip and Clip Gain mode.

I've found that Shift T, Shift T, is a way to get it back to Clip mode, but I haven't found a way to put it easily in Clip Gain mode.

 

That's already been done for the next release... keep an eye out for the next early access release.

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I still think this needs a slider or knob popping up on the area selected, instead of the dragging down method.  

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18 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

I still think this needs a slider or knob popping up on the area selected, instead of the dragging down method.  

This is a pretty good idea. you would just have to find a way to incorporate it, maybe a shortcut to pop up the fader control.

I typically work in a lane (Automation lane) which gives me a good amount of room to focus in on nodes but it can be dicey at time dialing in fine measurements. Though there is a shortcut to make fine adjustments it would be nice to see the db scale a little larger too.

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On 7/18/2020 at 5:55 PM, Will_Kaydo said:

I still think this needs a slider or knob popping up on the area selected, instead of the dragging down method.  

This is exactly the work flow I'd like. Exact same thing as Adobe Audition. I'm getting use to the selection and drag method in the second response, but it's still messy. And still limited by +6dB gain. I find that when I'm really working with film sound editing, there are many times that I need to boost a portion upwards of 12dB, so I end up dragging it up to 6dB, bouncing the clip, and then doing it again. It's just not efficient. 

And of course when I bounce it, I'm committing all the other clip gain changes. Which makes me start having to split the clip into multiple sections as to just affect the portion I want to, which then leaves split clips everywhere. It's a lot of added chaos for which there is an easier solution ;)

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On 7/19/2020 at 6:54 PM, chuckebaby said:

Though there is a shortcut to make fine adjustments it would be nice to see the db scale a little larger too.

What is the shortcut plz? I typically maximize track height for fine adjustments.

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9 hours ago, Josh Wolfer said:

This is exactly the work flow I'd like. Exact same thing as Adobe Audition. I'm getting use to the selection and drag method in the second response, but it's still messy. And still limited by +6dB gain. I find that when I'm really working with film sound editing, there are many times that I need to boost a portion upwards of 12dB, so I end up dragging it up to 6dB, bouncing the clip, and then doing it again. It's just not efficient. 

And of course when I bounce it, I'm committing all the other clip gain changes. Which makes me start having to split the clip into multiple sections as to just affect the portion I want to, which then leaves split clips everywhere. It's a lot of added chaos for which there is an easier solution ;)

I on the other hand find the +6db boost to be just fine for me. I never go above +4db boost, well that I can think of ever done - probably has to do with my mic placements.  

Why don't you try and cut the desired section, normalize it or gain by +6 than boost it with Automation. It's never good to boost higher than +6db, but than again - I don't know your setup and of course preferences.  What I can advice is, try to  keep it within the "humanize" spectrum, like a +3 or even +6db less than what you prefer to have set. Let the compressor with Automation on it balance things out for you with a human feel by not boosting that high?  ✌️

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12 hours ago, chris.r said:

What is the shortcut plz? I typically maximize track height for fine adjustments.

It used to be SHIFT+CLICK/DRAG but i just noticed that doesn't seem to work anymore.

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