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JoeGBradford

Sampletank 4 crashing in CbB

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Hi all

I mentioned this in the Deals forum but as that's not really the place for discussion in more detail but I've been having frequent problems with ST4 crashing whilst loading sounds. I'm working through the new sounds I got as part of the IK Total Deal a week or so ago to determine which I want to favourite and around once an hour or so CbB crashes when loading a sound. I can restart CbB and load the same sound without a problem. Has anyone had similar problems? Is it likely to be related to me loading lots of different sounds after each other?

I've attached screen grab and crash dump

I'm using Windows 10 8Gb RAM i5 processor

Thanks for any help!    

ST4 Crash Screen.png

Sampletank 4_04292020_165424.dmp

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2 hours ago, JoeGBradford said:

Hi all

I mentioned this in the Deals forum but as that's not really the place for discussion in more detail but I've been having frequent problems with ST4 crashing whilst loading sounds. I'm working through the new sounds I got as part of the IK Total Deal a week or so ago to determine which I want to favourite and around once an hour or so CbB crashes when loading a sound. I can restart CbB and load the same sound without a problem. Has anyone had similar problems? Is it likely to be related to me loading lots of different sounds after each other?

I've attached screen grab and crash dump

I'm using Windows 10 8Gb RAM i5 processor

Thanks for any help!    

Sampletank 4_04292020_165424.dmp 3.48 MB · 0 downloads

Hi Joe,

I have had many issues with ST4 (and ST3) in the past and often it was related to using the VST3 version so I got into the habit of using the VST2 version.
For me though the latest version of ST4 seems stable whether I use VST2 or 3. See if you get the same problem using the VST2 version.
If so then...

There are a few other related threads such as the one below. Matthew Sorrels often gives good advice within these threads.
You could also raise a support ticket with IKM although the last time I had an issue someone on the forums solved it about 2 weeks before IK support got back to me. 

 

 

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Much appreciated. I did wonder if it was worth trying the VST2 version.  I'll look at that tomorrow. I noticed today the tick box to untick if we want VST 2 versions to be shown in VST lists. Is there a way of just allowing ST 4 VST 2 to be shown otherwise I'll have a plethora of duplicate VSTs in my list.

Also noted Matthew's helpful comments re graphics card conflicts in that thread you copied in

Thanks again!

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Have not browsed extensively, and I've mostly been playing with Syntronik inserted directly rather than loading via SampleTank. Will try using ST4 some more.

I only installed the VST3.  As I recall, you have to unhide VST2s with the checkbox, then also un-Exclude them individually, and then you can Exclude the VST3 if you don't want to see it. 

Edited by David Baay
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@JoeGBradford I was going to say more or less what @David Baay said. Run the installer again, select both VST2 and VST3.

In Preferences -> VST Settings -> VST3 Migration there is a checkbox Hide Related VST2 Plug-Ins. This takes care of having both.

In Utilities -> Cakewalk Plug-in Manager in Plug-in Categories click on VST3 Instruments. In Registered Plug-Ins click on SampleTank 4. At the bottom left there is Manage Exclusion List. Click on Exclude Plug-In. Now the VST3 version won't be used.

in Plug-in Categories click on VST Instruments. Have a look in Registered Plug-Ins. If SampleTank4 is there then it will be used. (The VST2.) If not, in Manage Exclusion List click on Show Excluded. Now it should appear in Registered Plug-Ins. (Not sure if Preferences -> VST Settings -> VST3 Migration -> Hide Related VST2 Plug-Ins matters.) Click on SampleTank4 and you should be able to click on Enable Plug-in in Manage Exclusion List.

Do the reverse when swapping back.

Not sure if Preferences -> VST Settings -> VST3 Migration -> Hide Related VST2 Plug-Ins matters.

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If you don't want to show all the VST2, you could just delete/move the Sampletank VST3 out of c:\Program Files\Common Files\VST3.  I usually just move things like this to a "BAD PLUGINS" folder.  If you want it back it's easy to move it back (vs deleting and having to reinstall).  Just remember to put it back before running any installers.

As for a crash after loading lots of different instruments, I've not seen that one.  It looks like in the screenshot you are loading a Sampletank 3 sound.  That might be a factor.  Other than making sure you have the most recent Sampletank 4 there may not be much you can do about it.  I do know they have fixed some Sampletank 3 instrument issues in the most recent Sampletank 4  (but it looks like you are running that).

I looked at your crash dump.  There isn't really much there.  It's crashing deep in Sampletank 4.  But the version of MFC140U.dll you have doesn't match mine.  A lot of your OS dll's don't match my fully updated Windows 10 system.  I think you are running Windows 10, Version 1903?  You might want to update that to 1906.  And install all the newest/newer VC runtime's

Your also using ASIO4ALL as a audio driver.  As a rule I'd say that is not a great choice.  If your audio card doesn't have a native ASIO driver, use the Windows drivers in Cakewalk rather than ASIO4ALL.  It could be the source of your problem.  Sampletank has always needed a higher buffer setting to run stable than most other instruments.  At low values it has crashed on me (though not usually loading instruments but during playback)

Update every single thing you can and then see if you can work out a way to reproduce the crash.  If you can get it to happen on command is your best chance at narrowing it down and fixing it.  Good luck.

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Thanks everyone - I'll try out your suggestions. I should have added I am using the onboard sound card which is why I am using ASIO4All. I'm just a hobbyist so I can't really justify the cost of a sound interface and monitors -  I wouldn't have room for monitors anyway alongside the hi fi speakers I am currently using for everything (I know you shouldn't use hifi for sound production but as I say I am just doing this for my own entertainment 🙂 )

Another question - I've spent several hours going through the sounds and identifying my favourites - I assume I'd lose these if I use the VST2 version or reinstall?

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I have had the occasional crash in both CbB and Studio One 4 Pro, so I don't think it's necessarily an issue with CbB.  Doesn't happen often but has happened. 

I can only speculate since I'm not as into the innards of these programs as a few of our resident geniuses are ;)   VST 3 put more of a demand on the graphics . I love those larger GUIs using VST3 with some plugins. I think the flipside to some of that is more demand on the graphics of some computers. While I have a video card that is pretty decent I am beginning to wonder if some of the issue is my Nvidi a drivers not always playing well with the graphics in ST. I only say this because I have enough memory and a fairly fast PC. When I launch ST4 it doesn't hesitate on sound files loading or general operation of the program. Something is occasionally tripping it up though.

As Matthew says it could be the ASIO4ALL driver. At one time ASIO4ALL was recommended here extensively for anyone who didn't have dedicated drivers. The Behringer U-Phoria UM-2 is only 50 bucks and they now have a dedicated driver for it. No guarantees that this will fix your issue but it would get you set up with decent monitoring and latency. The Behringer has a Midas designed preamp and can accept two 1/4" phono plugs. I just bought one to take an AUX send out of a Behringer X18 and into a laptop for a live broadcast feed.  Limited to 16/44.1. Not really a deal breaker. 

The frustrating things for me is the ST 4 crash only happens occasionally and I don't get a crash dump. It just closes down and might seize my DAW.  I recommend you put CbB on auto backup or remember to save frequently so you don't get frustrated if it decides to do it again. Part of my issue may be that I am also often running other programs in the background that might be conflicting with ST. 

Please let us know if you find the issue and what it was. Thanks!

Edited by Starise
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Matthew - just checked my system build - it is Win 10 Home 1909 so presumably up to date - I always install updates except the occasional optional one

 

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I have removed the VST 3 file from the scanned folder and kept it safe. First bit of good news is that the VST2 version of ST4 has kept the 'favourites' I have marked - presumably the record of those must be kept in a file accessed by both versions - that's a relief. Now to see how it goes..................

Thanks again everyone! I'll be back to report on progress!

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Hi again Joe,

As soon as I saw you mention ASIO4All it made me go into a cold sweat! I only ever used it once on an old SoundBlaster card and it caused so many problems I vowed never to install it again and I have stuck to that. I dare say they have improved it since I used it as it was a long time ago but I would honestly invest in a new sound card that came with it's own ASIO drivers before ever installing it again. That may not solve your ST4 problems of course but as Starise and Matthew said it may help in general to improve stability and latency.

To answer your question about favourites they are saved so that they will show up in whichever version you load (standalone, VST2, VST3). It's been a while since I uninstalled it so I cannot recall whether there is a prompt to leave them in place or not. Also I have googled and found a few support questions (remember to use the non UK spelling - favorites) asking where they are stored but haven't managed to track a definitive answer.  A quick search of standard places on my system (program folder, sample/instrument folders, ProgramData and Common Files drew a blank so maybe they are in the registry IDK?

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Man, I am sorry to hear that. I've just been up for hours playing the SampleTank 2 Free instruments I imported to SampleTank 3 so I could use them in SampleTank 4 CS. Which has been solid as a rock since the 4.1 release on my system, whereas ST3 crashed in both VST2 and 3 versions.

The fact that it crashed after you loaded and unloaded and then loaded and unloaded instruments repeatedly before it crashed suggests to me the plug-in has a memory leak. That's exactly what I was just doing for hours, though, and it didn't happen for me, but I also have 16G of RAM on my system, which is a bigger margin for error if ST4 isn't releasing memory correctly when it unloads samples. If you know how to start up Task Manager/Resource Monitor to see if it's progressively running you out of memory, that would be a big clue.

I was just being happily reunited with all the cool instruments that came with SampleTank 2 that I had forgotten about because I never bothered to import/convert them until now. Really great Mellotron/Chamberlain assortment and huge pads and a nice sampler of the Miroslav orchestral sounds. They work amazingly well in SampleTank 4, with all the effects and macros intact, so anyone who still has ST2 instruments around, it's worth the trouble to use ST3 to convert them. You need to do that because 4 won't import them directly. There are things in there that are not in the subsequent freebie packs: they have the Moog Radio Shack Concertmate MG-1!

For Joe, or anyone else doing playback using their onboard sound chip, I discovered Alan Finotty's Modded Realtek Driver a few days ago whilst hot-rodding my Obama years Dell Latitude-With-Attitude E6410 laptop. Today she's getting the 240G Kingston SSD from my Dell tower since the tower just got a WD Blue 500G SSD.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get the laptop to install the driver, likely due to the fact that it uses an IDT chip, not a Realtek or Intel. Alan's posts seem to say that his driver will work with IDT chips, but it's a hack, so who knows. Never heard of IDT, but I must say, with a good pair of cans, playing FLAC's with MusicBee in WASAPI mode sounds really, really good coming out of that thing.

It appears that part of the package is a native ASIO driver that is not just a WDM wrapper.😮 Or it might be a WDM wrapper, but one that works better than ASIO4ALL so it's worth a shot I think. I might fiddle with it some more to see if I can get it to install. I would dig having a real ASIO driver. Or at least a better one than ASIO4ALL.

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Cheers both

I was just starting to feel comfortable that I wasn't going to have a crash with the VST2 when - bang - there she goes! I was wondering if it was a memory issue too - I'll check out Task Manager to see if there is a clue there as it is the problem definitely is only with loading instruments.Once I've been through these (I'm nearly up to T of the main ST3 sounds though still got add ons to listen to!) it might settle down in more normal usage

To be honest I have had very few problems with ASIO4All and I've been using it for years - though I am having a problem with Union synth and occasionally ST3 /Miroslav jittering (doesn't seem to be an issue in ST4 so far fingers crossed). I'll explore other options if the current issues persist

Thanks again! 

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1 hour ago, Starship Krupa said:

For Joe, or anyone else doing playback using their onboard sound chip, I discovered Alan Finotty's Modded Realtek Driver a few days ago...

WASAPI Exclusive mode is probably the best place to start for onboard sound users as it's full supported by the Bakers.

That said, I was initially suspicious about the possible involvement of ASIO4ALL in this issue as well, but the faulting module is Sampletank, and I would not expect that loading  samples would affect the audio driver state.

Edited by David Baay
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30 minutes ago, JoeGBradford said:

Cheers both

I was just starting to feel comfortable that I wasn't going to have a crash with the VST2 when - bang - there she goes! I was wondering if it was a memory issue too - I'll check out Task Manager to see if there is a clue there as it is the problem definitely is only with loading instruments.Once I've been through these (I'm nearly up to T of the main ST3 sounds though still got add ons to listen to!) it might settle down in more normal usage

To be honest I have had very few problems with ASIO4All and I've been using it for years - though I am having a problem with Union synth and occasionally ST3 /Miroslav jittering (doesn't seem to be an issue in ST4 so far fingers crossed). I'll explore other options if the current issues persist

Thanks again! 

Oh that's a shame :( . I guess memory might be an issue although just running standalone with one or two sounds should be OK. One of my current CbB projects is fairly lightly loaded using one instance of Kontakt with 5 instruments, EzDrummer and TTS-1 and the system shows 8.1Gb of memory in use. 

I am probably a bit paranoid about ASIO4ALL after all the problems it caused me and I'm sure that nowadays many people are using it successfully. I also had a friend who was trying to get into hobbyist recording on a PC and was having problems which also turned out to be issues with ASIO4All. It's just that I can't help think that such a key piece of the audio recording jigsaw needs to be optimised for best performance rather than some kind of one size fits all generic software. That link from Starship Krupa might offer a glimmer of hope though.

FYI I have my old Steinberg UR242 interface for sale if you are interested, just haven't put it on eBay yet. No pressure but PM me if interested.

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Thanks for the offer but I'll stick with onboard for now. I don't do any live recording just use VSTi's and as I say space is an issue re accomodating monitors as well as my hifi speakers.

I've kept an eye on the RAM usage and nothing untoward there - using about 47 - 49 % throughout including around time of crashes. Had one a couple of minutes after going back in then just (!) one more in last couple of hours. Got through to Z in the end!

I'll see how it performs in more normal use. If it continues to crash regularly I'll raise a support ticket with IK. I did send an earlier crash file in a message to Pete after he offered to help but he may not have seen it

I'll definitely look at WASAPI again though and try to get it to work!

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5 hours ago, JoeGBradford said:

Matthew - just checked my system build - it is Win 10 Home 1909 so presumably up to date - I always install updates except the occasional optional one

 

Hey, Joel - some of those optional updates might be big cumulative updates, or other ones that might resolve some of your issues - worth looking at in more detail.  I always check every couple of weeks, and apply any such optional updates in Windows Updates, and I am completely current on all Windows 10 maintenance, and have zero crashes or issues with things going south.

Bob Bone

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You may also want to update your Visual Studio Runtime's (which don't get updated with Windows Update):

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/2977003/the-latest-supported-visual-c-downloads

Each evolution (Visual Studio 2015, 2017 and 2019 is one installer, Visual Studio 2013 (VC++ 12.0) has three installers, Visual Studio 2012 (VC++ 11.0), Visual Studio 2010 (VC++ 10.0) SP1 and lastly Visual Studio 2008 (VC++ 9.0) SP1) has a separate installer.  Honestly you might want to just install them all.  Having them updated and current can solve lots of problems.

You might also try this instead:
https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/visual_c_runtime_installer.html

It is basically a bulk installer of all the runtimes.  It saved my bacon when a poorly written install app trashed my visual studio runtimes.  Normally I recommend people go to the source, but Microsoft has made it so hard anymore these kinds of installers can be big time savers.  Major Geeks is pretty trustworthy.

 

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Thanks - just a bit concerned that the Major Geeks link is a couple of years old so I might be better updating from the MS site even if it is a bit longer? I could then check version no to see if they are up to date presumably

Edit - I updated the 2017 - 2019 one and noticed it leaves the old ones behind - presumably I can now safely uninstall those?

Edited by JoeGBradford

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