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Morten Saether

[CLOSED] Cakewalk 2020.04 Early Access 1

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Posted (edited)

After working on an old project which already had markers it was a piece of cake (no pun intended) to add arrangement sections and make new arrangements.

One issue has been discussed in various posts above - clips which start/end before the beginning/end of a section. 

A couple of other thoughts which came to mind while I was working on a project without any existing markers...

  • I right clicked on a clip expecting to see a "Make Arranger Section from Clip Boundaries" option or similar. Maybe a future option?
  • When committing an arrangement I would have liked the option to make a new project from the committed project. Although it was easy enough to "save as" I was worried that I might forget and overwrite the existing project with no way back.
  • Add Arranger presets (ABA, AAB, ABAABAC etc with section length prompt) - I see Mark mentions these as a future possibility.
  • ALT-Mouse Wheel doesn't zoom horizontally if the mouse is within the Arranger track. 

In general, for songs where I would use the Arranger I would try a modified workflow. I would create an "Arrangement" Project and record only the basic sections without any fancy additions. For example, a song with 2 verses and a chorus is unlikely to have two identical verses (the second one might have some kind of lead-in to the chorus) but for the purposes of an Arrangement Project I would not include any embellishments on the second verse or if I did then it would be labelled as a different type of verse. I would then create my arrangements by putting together different combinations of the sections. In this way I would use the Arranger project as a parent project to spawn multiple committed projects with a basic song structure, each one saved separately. I wouldn't use the arranger in the committed projects but develop them as I would have done before there was an arranger track. If I later decide that I don't like the arrangement then I could go back to the Arranger Project to add a new arrangement or alter an existing one to create a new committed project. This is just initial thoughts and I might change my mind after I have tried this out in practice. 

Edited by ZincT
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20 minutes ago, ZincT said:
  • I right clicked on a clip expecting to see a "Make Arranger Section from Clip Boundaries" option or similar. Maybe a future option?

Once you've clicked on your clip, right click on the arranger track and select "From Selection" - right clicking on the Time Ruler and selecting "Create Section from Selection" does the same thing.

 

23 minutes ago, ZincT said:
  • When committing an arrangement I would have liked the option to make a new project from the committed project. Although it was easy enough to "save as" I was worried that I might forget and overwrite the existing project with no way back.

 

23 minutes ago, ZincT said:

In general, for songs where I would use the Arranger I would try a modified workflow. I would create an "Arrangement" Project and record only the basic sections without any fancy additions. For example, a song with 2 verses and a chorus is unlikely to have two identical verses (the second one might have some kind of lead-in to the chorus) but for the purposes of an Arrangement Project I would not include any embellishments on the second verse or if I did then it would be labelled as a different type of verse. I would then create my arrangements by putting together different combinations of the sections. In this way I would use the Arranger project as a parent project to spawn multiple committed projects with a basic song structure, each one saved separately. I wouldn't use the arranger in the committed projects but develop them as I would have done before there was an arranger track. If I later decide that I don't like the arrangement then I could go back to the Arranger Project to add a new arrangement or alter an existing one to create a new committed project. This is just initial thoughts and I might change my mind after I have tried this out in practice. 

Both of these were discussed in the design phases, and were decided they weren't for the first release. The main reason being that it seemed more appropriate to think in more generic terms of "Project versions" rather than something that is arranger specific... so maybe something that we'll do in the future.
 

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@winkpain - just to clarify with the resizing issue...

The resizing will now be clamped so that resizing the start cannot go beyond the end time.

However, part of what you're seeing is expected behaviour when using "Snap By" rather than "Snap To".

In your video, your snap settings were set to "Snap By 1/1"  -  so your start time would be changed in decrements of whole measures.

To better explain the difference between Snap By / Snap To, take a section that starts at 3.02.000  with a snap setting of 1/1 (whole measures)

Snap By will decrement the start time by whole measures as you move the start nearer to 0.... so you'll get 3.02.000, 2.02.000, 1.02.000

Snap To will snap the start time to whole measures, so as you move you'll get 3.01.000, 2.01.000, 1.01.000

 

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2 hours ago, foldaway said:

Hi Noel,

Sure, not for a single plugin but I'm talking about loading multiple plugins in parallel which would indeed speed up loading operation considerably.   In my case 16x faster!

When using a project with 100's of plugin instances this would make a huge difference.

@foldawayAh I see what you are saying. I'll look into the feasibility of this.

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6 hours ago, GreenLight said:

Hm, did I understand correctly: if you already have something bound for A, the new update will add the Arranger View to A so you have two functions on A?

Technically, yes. But only the one function will....well, function. CW permits binding multiple keystrokes the the same functions and permits multiple functions to be bound to the same keystrokes. If there is a "by design" reason for this, I don't see it, nor has it been explained.

I do know that it causes a lot of confusion

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, msmcleod said:

@winkpain - just to clarify with the resizing issue...

The resizing will now be clamped so that resizing the start cannot go beyond the end time.

However, part of what you're seeing is expected behaviour when using "Snap By" rather than "Snap To".

In your video, your snap settings were set to "Snap By 1/1"  -  so your start time would be changed in decrements of whole measures.

To better explain the difference between Snap By / Snap To, take a section that starts at 3.02.000  with a snap setting of 1/1 (whole measures)

Snap By will decrement the start time by whole measures as you move the start nearer to 0.... so you'll get 3.02.000, 2.02.000, 1.02.000

Snap To will snap the start time to whole measures, so as you move you'll get 3.01.000, 2.01.000, 1.01.000

 

Thank you for replying. Yes, understood.  I have understood the difference between Snap To and Snap By and have used them accordingly without confusion for a while now. Or.... Correct me if I'm wrong here in the following example: 

IF my section boundary is at the start of a measure,  for example at 3.01.000,  whether Snap is set to "To" or "By", the behavior expected would be the same if I drag it one or two bars earlier. That is, if I let go of it as I near the 2.01.000, it will snap to 2.01.00 (or by one measure). If I let go at 1.01.000, it will snap to 1.01.000 (or by two measures). Yes?

What I found, and what is shown in video, is that if I drag the boundary to 2.01.000 and let go, it snaps to 3.01.00. If I drag to 1.01.00 and let go, it snaps to 2.01.000. In other words, a bar after the expected snap to or by point. This what I don't get....

 

 

Edited by winkpain

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4 hours ago, foldaway said:

Hi Noel,

Sure, not for a single plugin but I'm talking about loading multiple plugins in parallel which would indeed speed up loading operation considerably.   In my case 16x faster!

When using a project with 100's of plugin instances this would make a huge difference.

If I follow - 16 instances of the same plugin on different tracks?

I'm thinking the quick grouping the tracks, and hold control when you do anything like that - and it duplicates to all selected.

But the same thing with multiple chains, have not tried that.

Or you talk about something all different....

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17 minutes ago, winkpain said:

Thank you for replying. Yes, understood.  I have understood the difference between Snap To and Snap By and have used them accordingly without confusion for a while now. Or.... Correct me if I'm wrong here in the following example: 

IF my section boundary is at the start of a measure,  for example at 3.01.000,  whether Snap is set to "To" or "By", the behavior expected would be the same if I drag it one or two bars earlier. That is, if I let go of it as I near the 2.01.000, it will snap to 2.01.00 (or by one measure). If I let go at 1.01.000, it will snap to 1.01.000 (or by two measures). Yes?

What I found, and what is shown in video, is that if I drag the boundary to 2.01.000 and let go, it snaps to 3.01.00. If I drag to 1.01.00 and let go, it snaps to 2.01.000. In other words, a bar after the expected snap to or by point. This what I don't get....

 

 

I do confirm that this behavior is only with "Snap by" chosen. Although I still don't get the logic of the one "snap unit" offset. As is further exemplified in this video, you see that as I drag the boundary to the preferred Snap by location, the visual change in the section moves as expected as I drag, but when I let go it snaps to a bar(or whatever snap unit is chosen) after that point. This offset is unique behavior not seen with dragging clips or notes with Snap by chosen.

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Thank you so much !!!

The Arranger Track seems to be very usefull and so powerful for EDM producers 🤩

May health be with you and your loved ones !!!

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7 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

@foldawayAh I see what you are saying. I'll look into the feasibility of this.

Thanks, that would be great :)

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6 hours ago, LarsF said:

If I follow - 16 instances of the same plugin on different tracks?

I'm thinking the quick grouping the tracks, and hold control when you do anything like that - and it duplicates to all selected.

But the same thing with multiple chains, have not tried that.

Or you talk about something all different....

Hi Lars,

I'm talking about loading a project & the possibility of using all available CPU cores to create whatever plugins are used in the project.  So that the project will load faster.

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On 4/13/2020 at 7:47 PM, Noel Borthwick said:

Its not expected. Something is likely consuming more memory than it should. Did you try removing some plugins and retesting it? Also make sure that you are not using scheduling model 3 since its still under development and there are some memory leaks.


Hi Noel,


Thanks for your comments.

When I get some time i'll do some further testing for you and provide more detailed feedback.
I was testing the model 3 scheduling at one point but I believe I swapped back  as it wasn't performing quite as well - will double check.

Best wishes,
Matthew

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

@foldawayAh I see what you are saying. I'll look into the feasibility of this.

Improving the multi-process loading of VST's during opening would deliver huge value to me also - so really supportive and grateful for any efforts in this area!

Edited by Matthew Simon Fletcher

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On 4/14/2020 at 5:31 AM, Noel Borthwick said:

 @Peter Stiens thanks for the dump file. Its crashing when creating the step sequencer view which is odd. Did you change the Empty Project.cwt file accidentally in the templates folder? Its normally here C:\Cakewalk Content\Cakewalk Core\Project Templates

I can prevent the crash but it would be worth finding out why the template is referencing that view at all since its supposed to be empty.

@Noel Borthwick I have two PCs running cakewalk, a desktop and a notebook. 
I compared both Empty Project.cwt files with WINMERGE. They are identical. I cannot  reproduce the error on the desktop though I tried very hard 😉

But (!), it must have to do with the workspace. I've had created my own workspace, that somehow managed to include the step seqencer view . When I switch to a factory workspace, like "Basic" I am able to create a new empty project without error. If you tell me the location where I can find my created workspace file, I could send it in for examination, if needed.

best regards

Peter

 

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Peter Stiens said:

@Noel Borthwick I have two PCs running cakewalk, a desktop and a notebook. 
I compared both Empty Project.cwt files with WINMERGE. They are identical. I cannot  reproduce the error on the desktop though I tried very hard 😉

But (!), it must have to do with the workspace. I've had created my own workspace, that somehow managed to include the step seqencer view . When I switch to a factory workspace, like "Basic" I am able to create a new empty project without error. If you tell me the location where I can find my created workspace file, I could send it in for examination, if needed.

best regards

Peter

 

 

 

 

@Peter Stiens Indeed. I found the source of the problem yesterday and we have a fix. Its quite a bad longstanding bug related to applying workspaces (or screensets) referencing views to an empty project. In your case the workspace referenced the step sequencer view. Since a blank project cannot have a step sequencer this was running into an issue when loading the workspace and crashing.

This is already fixed for the next release but to work around your crash just remove the step sequencer from your custom workspace for the time being and it should resolve the issue.

Thanks for reporting this!

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The long MIDI note is not cut.
Audio clips are split.
It would be convenient to make the option to automatically cut a long midi note.

Cakewalk_2020-04-15_15-10-55.png

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On 4/11/2020 at 11:54 AM, Jean-Philippe ROGER said:

Hello,
I have a problem with the arrangements. I created 3 sections with only Addictives Drums 2 like Vsti.
I organize the sections in one arrangement in ABCB.
In playback of the arrangement, the sound of the first section plays well and then cuts off just before the start of the second, playback continues but without sound even in normal playback mode.
I have to open the project again to find the sound.


Thanks for your help.

Thanks to help from @Jean-Philippe ROGER via a remote session, we were able to fix this issue. 
The root problem was this:
Arrangement does not preview properly when "Set Now Time With Full Restart" enabled in Track View options. 

A fix has been implemented for the next release.

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Just now, Zirrex said:

The long MIDI note is not cut.
Audio clips are split.
It would be convenient to make the option to automatically cut a long midi note.

 

This has already been addressed for the next release.

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On 4/13/2020 at 3:37 PM, RBH said:

Noel - I've done what I can to  update all video drivers. I can't seem to find any other way to witness a crash outside of the EA install. I've also performed a couple of restore points to see if anything recent could be causing this. It seems consistent that this crash only appears after the EA install. The prior versions utilizing both existing and new basic template projects doesn't produce this. The EA utilizing existing and new  basic template project loads produces the crash. Not sure what to try from this point.  I'm hoping that the official roll out will also allow rolling back to 2020-01 version if it doesn't work?  I've done probably 3 installs and 2 roll backs of the Early access install.

@RBH yes we plan on releasing rollback installers going forward with every release.

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1 hour ago, Noel Borthwick said:

@Peter Stiens Indeed. I found the source of the problem yesterday and we have a fix. Its quite a bad longstanding bug related to applying workspaces (or screensets) referencing views to an empty project. In your case the workspace referenced the step sequencer view. Since a blank project cannot have a step sequencer this was running into an issue when loading the workspace and crashing.

This is already fixed for the next release but to work around your crash just remove the step sequencer from your custom workspace for the time being and it should resolve the issue.

Thanks for reporting this!

@Noel Borthwick You're welcome. I have to thank for this wonderful DAW. Greetings to the whole cakewalk team.

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