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CbB Mac, please

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7 hours ago, TheSteven said:

 

That # is really misleading - Apple's $$ is mainly from hardware sales (which includes lots of iPhones, watches, etc), they still only have a small portion of the computer market.
7.1% as of 2018Q2 per https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/12/mac-shipments-up-in-q2-2018/

Yep, I got that hardware angle figured out.  No intentional misleading data.  Wasn't actually trying to do an apples to apples (no pun) software vs. hardware revenue comparison, rather just to point out the deep, deep pockets that Apple Corp has.  They could probably give away Logic Pro without making a dent in their corporate bottom line.  They probably won't do that if folks are willing to pay, though.  ;)

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On 12/23/2018 at 10:01 AM, abacab said:

I'm afraid that might be the bottom line.  You might be able to give away a CbB for Mac, but I doubt you could sell against Logic Pro X, which at $199 is sort of a no-brainer if you have a Mac. 

Just for reference, Apple owns Logic, and Apple is currently the most valuable company in the world, with a market cap of $926 billion USD. https://www.statista.com/statistics/263264/top-companies-in-the-world-by-market-value/

I'm sure that this discussion will continue until @Meng says, "(a) no way Jose", "(b) maybe, we should look into it further", or "(c) we'll definitely give it a shot"!

what i dont understand about that is reason/cubase,studio one,ect,ect sell plenty to mac users

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3 hours ago, Stephen Seth Ankrum said:

what i dont understand about that is reason/cubase,studio one,ect,ect sell plenty to mac users

What you don't understand is the business side of this. Those DAWs + Logic Pro X create a significant barrier to entry for newcomers to the Mac market.  Remember that they are already extremely popular DAWs that are already coded for the Mac and don't need additional millions $$$ invested for cross platform development (basically a re-write of the entire code base) to even begin marketing to Mac users. 

Cakewalk was barely rescued from the dustbin of history after being questionably successful in the Windows only market (rumor has it that it lost money for many recent years for its prior owners), and so it would be a huge marketing and development risk to go there commercially.  Cakewalk on Windows is a mature technology that apparently requires minimum development to maintain in its current platform. Giving it away to Windows users has the potential to open up other marketing opportunities for its new owners.

For the Mac market, Cakewalk would  have to become more popular and appealing than the competition to succeed commercially in the long term.  And if you would just plan to just give a Mac version away?  How would you recoup the huge investment in development for a Mac version?

Technical reality and business reality don't always coincide.  So don't misunderstand me, I am not against doing this by any means.  I have invested 20 years of my life into learning Cakewalk tools, and I would certainly love to see it flourish everywhere. But I am sure that the reality is not as simple as some may wish.  At the end of the day if you are running a business, you still need to pay your employees and creditors, and hopefully turn a profit for your investors.

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16 hours ago, abacab said:

What you don't understand is the business side of this. Those DAWs + Logic Pro X create a significant barrier to entry for newcomers to the Mac market.  Remember that they are already extremely popular DAWs that are already coded for the Mac and don't need additional millions $$$ invested for cross platform development (basically a re-write of the entire code base) to even begin marketing to Mac users. 

Cakewalk was barely rescued from the dustbin of history after being questionably successful in the Windows only market (rumor has it that it lost money for many recent years for its prior owners), and so it would be a huge marketing and development risk to go there commercially.  Cakewalk on Windows is a mature technology that apparently requires minimum development to maintain in its current platform. Giving it away to Windows users has the potential to open up other marketing opportunities for its new owners.

For the Mac market, Cakewalk would  have to become more popular and appealing than the competition to succeed commercially in the long term.  And if you would just plan to just give a Mac version away?  How would you recoup the huge investment in development for a Mac version?

Technical reality and business reality don't always coincide.  So don't misunderstand me, I am not against doing this by any means.  I have invested 20 years of my life into learning Cakewalk tools, and I would certainly love to see it flourish everywhere. But I am sure that the reality is not as simple as some may wish.  At the end of the day if you are running a business, you still need to pay your employees and creditors, and hopefully turn a profit for your investors.

I hear you and agrees dont agree with the whole free thing personally, and not sure how they can grow without charging for it, adding synths and effects, and making a mac version.Your right about it not being simple and I know it would be a significant financial investment for band lab

They should charge for it, never should have made it free

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17 hours ago, abacab said:

What you don't understand is the business side of this. Those DAWs + Logic Pro X create a significant barrier to entry for newcomers to the Mac market.  Remember that they are already extremely popular DAWs that are already coded for the Mac and don't need additional millions $$$ invested for cross platform development (basically a re-write of the entire code base) to even begin marketing to Mac users. 

Cakewalk was barely rescued from the dustbin of history after being questionably successful in the Windows only market (rumor has it that it lost money for many recent years for its prior owners), and so it would be a huge marketing and development risk to go there commercially.  Cakewalk on Windows is a mature technology that apparently requires minimum development to maintain in its current platform. Giving it away to Windows users has the potential to open up other marketing opportunities for its new owners.

For the Mac market, Cakewalk would  have to become more popular and appealing than the competition to succeed commercially in the long term.  And if you would just plan to just give a Mac version away?  How would you recoup the huge investment in development for a Mac version?

Technical reality and business reality don't always coincide.  So don't misunderstand me, I am not against doing this by any means.  I have invested 20 years of my life into learning Cakewalk tools, and I would certainly love to see it flourish everywhere. But I am sure that the reality is not as simple as some may wish.  At the end of the day if you are running a business, you still need to pay your employees and creditors, and hopefully turn a profit for your investors.

Giving it away might attract people to try it, but judging from how many people join their forum and the cakewalk facebook user groups I would say its not working.The whole code thing sucks and wish they had written it differently.I use logic but only logic but only started like 3 years ago when my pc broken had no money and my wife surprised me with a mac, she didnt as me what i wanted.I would gladly be using cakewalk if it was mac

I use log

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33 minutes ago, Stephen Seth Ankrum said:

The whole code thing sucks and wish they had written it differently.

That is a two-edged sword.  The thing that gave Cakewalk an edge on Windows is because the developers worked very closely with Microsoft to leverage Windows audio technologies for the best performance possible.

If Cakewalk had been developing for cross platform use from the start, things might be different now.  Hindsight and all that ...

Unfortunately that leaves the code stuck between a rock and a hard place as far as good, cheap, and fast (pick any two) porting to another platform.

The Mac OS since OS X is a certified Unix system, and Apple has written a custom audio subsystem for it: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/MusicAudio/Conceptual/CoreAudioOverview/CoreAudioEssentials/CoreAudioEssentials.html

Windows audio architecture looks like this: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/audio/windows-audio-architecture

Very different animals.

Edited by abacab

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On 12/23/2018 at 11:35 PM, glenville Leader said:

A mac version of CbB will be a great addition to the bandlab product. to the powers that be please give it some consideration.

 

Glenville

I think most people here are clueless regarding how Windows-centric this product's code base is. If you're on macOS, use GarageBand or Logic. They're cheap. It would take nearly a rewrite to get Cakewalk on macOS. 

All of the Sonitus stuff would have to be rewritten. A lot of the plugin framework, media subsystems, UI code, etc. would have to be rewtitten...  unless they ported it with a conpatibility layer. 

MacOS had a platform locked option, I don't see why Cakewalk being a Windows-only option is a bad thing. Its nice to have a Windows option that is aggressive about using what the platform has to offer, instead of lowest common denominator solutions. 

Products like Cakewalk and Vegas are good free to cheap options for upstart creatives who like the Windows platform and ecosystem. 

Vegas can use Sonitus Effects, and Cakewall can use Vrgas audio effects. This would never happen with cross platform products, as they would almost assuredly avoid DirectX. 

I don't thing porting is worth it. It would be a massive undertaking, and Logic Pro X I'd really cheap on macOS - with GarageBand being free. 

They are better off investing in features for the Windows version, and making it even better. 

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It's been 8 months and they haven't even set up a store to sell things like Z3ta 2 or the Adaptive Limiter yet.  Even if that were anywhere on there task list, I wouldn't expect a Mac version any time soon.

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7 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

All of the Sonitus stuff would have to be rewritten.

Off-topic, but the Sonitus DX stuff (as well as other DXi like TTS-1) opens in Reaper. That's the only other host that I am aware of with that capability out of the box.

Reaper isn't my cup of tea, but I have to credit the developers with writing some tight code. The Windows installer is only 11MB.  And the app is cross platform. :D

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15 hours ago, abacab said:

Off-topic, but the Sonitus DX stuff (as well as other DXi like TTS-1) opens in Reaper. That's the only other host that I am aware of with that capability out of the box.

Reaper isn't my cup of tea, but I have to credit the developers with writing some tight code. The Windows installer is only 11MB.  And the app is cross platform. :D

VEGAS Pro uses all of the Sonitus stuff (not the Instruments, obviously).  Additionally, all of the Audio Effects from VEGAS Pro work in Cakewalk. 

Software that support the DirectX Effect APIs will be able to use them. Cross platform DAWs typically don't implement their stuff as DirectX Effects, which kind of is the point I was making.   DirectX Effects are the Windows Equivalent to Audio Units on macOS.  VST is the Cross Platform alternative to those two.  DirectX is used for some Video Effect Plug-Ins in VEGAS Pro, as well, FWIW.

A lot of Pro software like VEGAS and SONAR were Windows-only, for YEARS, and designed/developed with an intentional bias for that platform; so they heavily used these libraries as it makes sense - similar to Apple heavily using their platform-specific libraries/toolkits in Final Cut and Logic Pro.    A lot of developers are just less meticulous about this on Windows, for some reason, but they almost always tend to support the macOS native technologies when they port there.

PCompare SOUND FORGE for Windows and macOS.  The products are named the same, and perform a similar function, but the macOS is pretty much a completely different product and WAY behind the Windows version.  The same can be said of software like ACDsee, which required yet another major revamp in  the latest macOS version.

Porting would take tons of planning, and potentially years of development before the macOS version reached feature parity with the Windows version - depending on how much money and resources BandLab chooses to throw at it.  In that interim, people would - understandable - call it crippled and suggest people who want to use it just get a PC. 

I don't personally think it's worth it.  Cakewalk is free, and that's very appealing because people love having their free choices available everywhere, but most professionals don't have an issue paying $199 for Logic Pro X and its army of Instruments, Loops, and Effects Plug-Ins.  There is very little to gain from a project that will be such a huge drain on resources.

People who need Pro Tools or Cubase aren't going to settle for Cakewalk because their choice of tools is driven by need, not simple preference.  Right now, Cakewalk isn't really usable in a Film Post workflow, for example.   It being on macOS won't change that, and it being ported to macOS can affect the timetable for the necessary features being introduced for its [potential] Windows users (i.e. it's entire user base, and then some, thus far).

Reaper was written from the ground up to be cross platform.  It was not written decades ago, and then revamped to be even more tightly integrated with one specific operating platform.   That is a completely different situation.  It also ships with almost nothing, so it having a tiny installer is not at all surprising 😛  If you use C/C++, Delphi, etc. and aren't relying on relatively heavy Libraries/Frameworks (Qt, etc.), then you're going to have tight code with a small installer  when you ship barely anything beyond the actual program files 😉

Edited by SomeGuy

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10 hours ago, Cookie Jarvis said:

I'm thinking of starting a campaign over at Apple to release Logic for the PC again...tit for tat ;)

Bill

It would have been nice if Microsoft had bought VEGAS/Sound Forge/ACID and tried to compete in that space... maybe SONAR, too :-)

Hell, they could have just bundled them in with the Office 365 subscriptions!

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Still no movement on this then >.<

I recently (today) helped a friend get their music pc and stuff all up and running again. Installed Sonar as that was what I used to use before switching to Mac as I was using Ableton more and more. The issue with windows was that I found it's audio handling and usb/drivers somewhat unpredictable at times, the inability to have a proper solution (other than asio4all) to create aggregate devices for the audio interfaces I was using at the time. I have, on times, thought about switching back, but I have become so comfortable with using Mac and the lack of issues I have had with usb devices, crashes and such I am reluctant to, even though my old pc is still actually faster than the one I currently use to record via my Allen & Heath QU32 in aggregate with an Motu828 mk3, 5 Roland synths/drum machines which supply audio out.
Having helped today to install Sonar again today, I wish I could install it on a Mac and use it again, especially as there may be an opportunity to start recording with a band again in the future (when this lockdown ends). Sadly it seems it is not to be :(

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Posted (edited)

Here's a not-crazy idea: If it was cloud based, then the OS of the user generally wouldn't matter. Record engine only on the client, captured audio sent to a Qumulo SMB formatted share hosted on Amazon/Google Cloud/Azure by CbB, processing/editing/mixing mastering all happens in the cloud, final work product is then export out via download.   With the right kind of SMB share, the application wouldn't even need to be refactored to run as an instance.

NBC is doing this for VIDEO production right now.  Audio only would be a ...Cakewalk. 

If anyone from Bandlab wants to discuss how to build that, DM me.   Dead serious here... 

 

Edited by StudioNSFW

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8 minutes ago, StudioNSFW said:

Here's a not-crazy idea: If it was cloud based, then the OS of the user generally wouldn't matter. Record engine only on the client, captured audio sent to a Qumulo SMB formatted share hosted on Amazon/Google Cloud/Azure by CbB, processing/editing/mixing mastering all happens in the cloud, final work product is then export out via download.   With the right kind of SMB share, the application wouldn't even need to be refactored to run as an instance.

NBC is doing this for VIDEO production right now.  Audio only would be a ...Cakewalk. 

If anyone from Bandlab wants to discuss how to build that, DM me.   Dead serious here... 

 

The number of people that would jump ship with a switch to such a  model would far exceed those that would jump on board.   Not to mention the dramatic cost increase in needed to buy  data center solutions around the globe to handle a free application with a  very limited user base.  

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Maybe - maybe not. 

The data centers are already built;  Bandlab is already in bed with Google if you look into what the Bandlab Mix Editor and mastering tool does. 

Even with a free "model" for the basic DAW, other things like Soft Synths and other .VSTs could be subscribed to at a Freemium level. 

The basic AMIs are spun up on demand for the DAW; with a small user base, you are using less resources and therefore have a lower google bill.  Doing all the processing in the cloud avoids the biggest cost generator for cloud: egress charges. Processing power in the cloud is much cheaper than it is on your desktop- and you can automate and orchestrate provisioning instances on demand, and spin them down when there is no demand.  The bill goes up as your adoption rate goes up,  whatever revenue Bandlab is generating from their current subscription model and their semi-annual tracking continues or increases. 

Frankly, while this all might seem radical, it makes a lot more sense as a way to bridge out to Mac and Linux users than rebuilding and refactoring the application stack to run on another OS.

 

Edited by StudioNSFW

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From BandLab's perspective, I am not sure I see the point. You would invest a bunch of time/effort/$$ to then try to break into a very competitive Mac DAW space, going up against industry standards. Better to write something new from the ground up to be cross-platform and provide a path for a healthy base of Bandlab users. Either way, this is no small undertaking, so the long game Business case needs to be compelling.....

From my perspective, I would love to see a standard file format adopted that goes beyond Midi 0 and 1, to include plugins, patch names, automation, etc. That would make portability sooooo much easier between systems and platforms. However, the big boys would have little incentive to play.....Well,......one can dream.....  

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PLEASE, please, do NOT waste time re-developing this program on a platform that is more of a moving target than a hummingbird. Every single OS update breaks operation of more and more software, requiring new versions, rewrites etc. All my Mac based friends, and there are MANY, are literally afraid of some update coming along. Almost ALL run outdated stuff, some can not buy a new Mac and make their stuff (hardware & software) work. On top of that MacOS gets buggier with every new release; I hear them talking among each other.

 

In contrast: I can STILL use the EVP73 that was last updated in the 90's I think on my Windows 10 machine, in the newest version of Cakewalk. My MOTU 424 PCI card works better than ever, again with the very newest OS, with the newest software, at latencies that very few interfaces can achieve, especially affordable ones.

 

Please, for all that is good in the world, do not divert this wonderful attention you've been giving Cakewalk, in my opinion the best all-around DAW on ANY platform, to an ecosystem that's in such state. Instead, keep doing what you're doing and when Apple gives its pro users that next big finger (how long before the ARM version of Pro-Tools is ready? LOL How many plugins will NEVER be updated... how many audio interfaces will get drivers?) that might be the last, you will be miles ahead.

 

Now cue all the Mac users that say "my Mac works perfectly for everything I do...."

 

R

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Posted (edited)

My Mac works perfectly for everything I do...

 

except CbB

BUT I also refuse to upgrade to Catalina for EXACTLY the reasons you list...And I agree, unless Bandlab feels the need to expand thier user base to a bunch of GarageBand users,  I don't see the upside. The online stuff can be used with Logic or GarbageBand...

Edited by StudioNSFW

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