Michael McBroom

Eric, thanks for the link. I just read through your posts there. Kinda like trying to take a drink from a fire hose. Hey, I can solder pretty well, and I usually manage to get the battery orientation right when I load a flashlight -- usually. I can also read auto and motorcycle wiring diagrams and schematics to a limited extent. But once you get into the theory of it all, well, what I learned in my Physics class some 42 years ago is about the extent of my knowledge on the subject. 

I'm gonna have to unearth the RA-100 and see if I can locate the section you're describing. Questions may follow.

11 hours ago, Cactus Music said:

The Motu requires me to add a send on the Master bus that is routed to 3/4. So I have to do this on each project. Another reason why I don’t like this interface.  
 

 Hmm, I just tried adding a send to 3 and 4 from my Master Bus, and it does it, but it's shut down the send to 1 and 2.  So it looks to me like I might have to create a separate bus just for the sub?  That is a bit inconvenient.  But then, I don't have anything hooked up to 3 and 4 yet. Maybe that's why it's behaving this way?

On 9/12/2022 at 7:58 PM, Cactus Music said:

Hey Michael The M4 has those 3/4 outputs you probably aren’t using. That’s what I use to go to my Yamaha sub. It’s way under my desk so hard to reach the level control so I can do that using the Main output faders found on the very far right of console view. 

Hey John, that's exactly where my sub is located -- way under my desk. My cat has been the only recent visitor to its environs in months. Okay, you've got my curiosity piqued.  But you'll have to pardon my rudimentary electronics skills. I have a decent Sony powered sub with a volume control that I have set to 12 o'clock. It doesn't break up at all, but it will rattle the windows and floorboards in this house. But I guess like most powered subs, it has a single black RCA cable coming off the back. So that's only one channel. So, what do you do, "Y" it into both 3 and 4? And you're right, btw, I'm not using 3 and 4. I bought the M4 just in case.

Erik, thanks for all the information. Glad to read that my Point Sevens are at least decent. I've always thought they were, but then I've been listening to them powered by receivers that added (or subtracted) way too much. Honestly, I think this Denon is at least trying to present a dry mix when set to "Direct" mode. Referring to the user manual, it states that all that other hooha is bypassed when Direct is enabled. So, one can hope -- for now.

Interesting you mention the Alesis RA-100. I happen to have one sitting here that I bought to power a PA system I also own. I'd considered using it for my DAW, but because it doesn't have a subwoofer out, I've been less inclined to do so. As you mention, the Alesis Point Sevens just don't have much thump when it comes to the low end.  However, I would be interested in knowing how to bypass or remove that output short protection circuitry that you mention.  Maybe in the future I can come up with some sort of external crossover for the sub such that I could use it. 

Thanks for the responses, guys. I was expecting something like what y'all provided. Now, I guess I need to do a little more homework and see what I can come up with based on what I can afford. 

With the speaker set up I have now, the drivers are only 5" so the subwoofer really helps. Whatever I end up with amp-wise, I'm hoping I can keep it. I just don't have the budget right now for new speakers and to be honest, I've been quite happy with the ones I have. They're an old set of Alesis Point Seven Reference Monitors. 

This Denon has several "sound parameter" presets, none of which I care for, and a "Direct" setting, which bypasses all of that stuff. I have it set to Direct, which results in what seems to be a dry output. So it may not be as good as some of the amps y'all mentioned, but I'm hoping for now that it'll at least be close.

As for room correction or treatment, there's very little I can do. My man cave is really more like a man nook. I have the front room in our house all to myself. The problem is, however, that this room is stuffed almost from floor to ceiling with books and boxes of books and other stuff.  The result of all this is an acoustically dead room.  So I'm not so sure any sort of room treatment would do any good.

Anyway, thanks. Y'all have given me lots to think about. 

I ran into this very same issue when I first started recording with CW. In my case, it was an electric guitar. Same issue, the guitar was way soft. There are several controls you have at your disposal, both on your interface and within Cakewalk. You need to understand how each affects the level. From there, you can choose how you want to proceed. 

On my setup, I've found that I can only barely crack open the channel volume or the signal will peg the meter. But this is a line-out signal coming from a guitar amp. I then balance the volume of that signal with the playback using the AI's monitor mix control. This is a good way to bring up the volume of the instrument being recorded in reference to the music. But that's playback, not recording volume. The recording volume is going to happen as a result of a balance of moves within the audio channel, and you have a number at your disposal. 

But before you do any of that, before you consider my "advice," I recommend you take John's advice and take the time to read through his tutorial on CWbBL.

I'm assuming you're using unpowered monitors, of course. 

I have been using just regular old stereo receivers to power my monitors ever since I put together v1.0 of my DAW over 20 years ago. I'm currently on stereo receiver number four. 

The reason why I even ask this question is because I've found a very big difference in the flat response from my latest receiver -- a Denon AVR-1706 that I bought used, and my previous one, an Onkyo something-or-another that was also purchased used. This Denon pushes the bass hard compared to that old Onkyo and so immediately I suspected that something was set wrong. So I went through all the controls and found that, indeed, both bass and treble were set flat, to 0dB. And it doesn't have any sort of silly bass boost button to push or anything like that.

One way to check for accuracy is to use the 'headphones out' on the audio interface. Mine, by the way, is a MOTU M4. I have a nice set of AKG open back cans that I usually use for close listening, but they don't really bring out the bass as strong as other types and makes. I also have an old-school set of closed back Koss Pro 4AA's that I use for recording vocals and acoustic instruments, where I don't want to have any chance of open-back headphones feeding sound back into the mix. So these Koss phones get used quite a bit less that the AKG's, simply because I don't do a lot of this type of recording.

With the AKGs, the bass just wasn't carrying through, so I couldn't really make a determination. But when I mounted the Koss cans, immediately, I could detect just as strong of a bass pulse coming through those old phones as I was hearing through the Denon. So, that settled that, at least. But the disturbing outcome from all this, I realized, was I was going to have to remaster every single piece of music I wrote, listening the Onkyo's output. I mean, the music is balanced fine. No VU meters are pegging, or anything, but there's just this massive bass emphasis I didn't realize was there until I set up the Denon.

And that long, drawn-out intro is what caused me to ask this question. What do you like to use to power your unpowered monitors? Oh, I should also add that I do have a powered subwoofer in my setup, which also helps bring out the bass. And, by the way, that's a big reason why I've been using stereo receivers, specifically those with a 'subwoofer out'. 

I agree that the PC-76 compressor found in the Pro Channel can be very effective -- on a case by case basis. I used it for years, but rather indiscriminately. I got in the habit of applying it to all parts of a piece. This ended up not working well. I found that the middle section of my music -- by middle section, I'm referring to all the accompanying instruments that are mostly holding down the rhythm and harmony -- had gotten muddy sounding. The cure, I found, was to completely eliminate all compression. And I did this for a while, the result being a much cleaner sounding mix. I did my best using volume, eq, and limiters to control each track's level, and this worked well enough in most instances.  But not all. I would still have the occasional stubborn track  that required some sort of compression.

Thus I've found that compression works better if I employ it on a case-by-case basis. But still being a bit gunshy of PC-76, I have come to rely on a pair of free VST's from Tokyo Dawn Records -- Nova, a parallel dynamic equalizer, and Kotelnikov, a mastering compresssor. These two work best as a pair, I've found. I establish a good EQ with Nova, then add compression and even some limiting with Kotelnikov. Both are very easy to use, have lots of controls for those who like to tweak things, and are effective in their output. I have found that Kotelnikov really is a mastering compressor. It is the final step I put into use in my mastering process. And since Nova immediately precedes it in the fx chain, it is also part of the final mastering process.

Wow, good to know. I wasn't aware of this. Now I feel justified in disliking ASIO4all.

I used ASIO for years, but I got a bad taste in my mouth over ASIO4All -- I hated the way it took over my machine and wouldn't let go. 

I've never really had a requirement for non-exclusivity. It all started because of a new amp I bought that had a USB out, which promised a clean signal devoid of amp hum, etc. Only problem was, the interface I was using at the time used ASIO -- 4All, no less, cuz it was "class compliant" and didn't come with its own drivers. And when I tried using the amp, ASIO showed the amp as a synth -- because it was coming in via USB. So that's when I began shopping for an interface that wasn't restricted to ASIO.  But in the meantime I'd worked out a way to record  my amp miced and it was working very well. In fact, I used this method for a couple of tunes I recorded.  But then fast forward to about 6 months ago, when I picked up a Marshall DSL40 cr, which uses what it calls "emulated out." Well, I didn't know if I liked the sound of that, but at least it was 1/4" phono and not USB, so I was able to run it through my MOTU. And, what do you know? I really like the sounds I get from the amp this way.  So, now I have no use for that other amp, nor for that other interface that required I used ASIO4All. 

Even though my MOTU is a 4-channel device, I think the times when I even use 2 channels will be rare. So ASIO's exclusivity quirk is something I can live with now.

Well, that amp is still with me but is pretty much history now. It doesn't get used for anything anymore. I should sell it.

That 1/16 note delay you cite -- I was just always figuring it was a rather relaxed 10-12 milliseconds.  Depending on the tempo of the piece, it's a delay that can be compensated for. But I'd just as soon not have to.

So are any of the other modes worth using? WDM/KS? WASAPI  (Exclusive)? How about MME (32-bit)?

Hey, stepd, thanks, I already know how to do all that stuff. I've been using CW products since Pro Audio 8 on a Win98 machine. I may not be a power user, but I do know where most stuff is. Well, mostly for the most part. I made the comment about the MOTU's configuration because I have yet another audio interface that does require its driver mode be set up  apart from the application it's being used in.

Yeah, well, you know what's got me puzzled is why WASAPI (shared) worked so well for so long and then suddenly it didn't.

But since every one of you kept harping about ASIO, I decided to go back and try it once again. And a curious thing happened. CW claimed my MOTU wasn't recognized and configured my other audio device instead.  I checked, and sure enough, the MOTU drivers weren't "checkable." So, I got the bright idea, what if none of the drivers were checked? So I unchecked the drivers for the other device, then ran ASIO again, and this time it came back where the MOTU was recognized. So, I checked its drivers.

Then I went to a tune that I just happened to have open, inserted an audio track, clicked on the two record icons and, hey! No lockup! And it was even laying down a record line. So I fired up my guitar and tried it out, and sure enough, it is now recording audio. Again. But what changed where now I have to run ASIO?

One other thing I think I'm gonna try out is setting up WASAPI (shared) again, and deselect all drivers, then run it, and see if I can select the MOTU drivers, and if I can, whether or not it'll let me record in that mode. Well, I'll know soon enough. For now, I'm just glad I've got my audio back.

Okay, I'm finally getting back to the task at hand here. I'll try to address your questions and comments in order.

RBH, it doesn't matter which project I try to record or monitor.  They all deliver the message I outlined above.

John, thanks for reminding me to let the interface do the heavy lifting. I now have it dialed in. Unfortunately, still no joy. If I attempt to record something, I don't even have to start the song. If I click on the track's record icon , then the transport record icon, the above message is delivered and the system freezes until I unclick both icons.

Lord Tim, I would prefer, if at all possible, not to have to restrict the driver mode to ASIO only. As I'm sure you aware, with ASIO it's ASIO or nothing. There are times when I need this machine to share. I first ran into ASIO's recalcitrant behavior when I was attempting to run an amp's USB Line Out into my machine. ASIO insisted the amp was a synth, thus not allowing me to record its audio.  I've been using WASAPI (shared) for the past 8 months without issues. Also, perhaps it  bears repeating, I tried all 5 driver modes that CW supports, and it didn't make any difference with any of them.

Stepd and David, I did as both of you suggested and renamed aud.ini. No difference. David, I also double-checked that the Playback and Record timing masters are set to the current interface (the MOTU M4 in this case).  Also, way back when I first set this machine up, I disabled the on-board audio. It hasn't been a problem and the MOTU has been sharing audio duties without issues. Still does. Except CW doesn't seem to recognize it when it's time to record. It bears mentioning here that the other interface that I set up, to see if it was the MOTU or not that was the problem, behaved in the exact same manner. It plays audio coming through the machine just fine, and plays CW's audio just fine. It just doesn't want to record or monitor audio with either interface I've tried.

Lord Tim, I just noticed your most recent note, so I'll address it separately. Please note that there has been no issue with monitoring or recording audio prior to a couple of days ago. So the Realtek, or whatever chip is on board this machine's mobo, is not the issue. So, I can't see how its driver suddenly would be. Unless the latest Win10 update futzed things up. Hmm, didn't think about that.

After John reminded me how to configure my MOTU properly, I was then able to determine that the same situation occurs even if I don't have the Input Echo engaged. All I have to do is set it up to record, and it locks up. I don't have Magix or Steinberger drivers on this system. I've just reinstalled the latest drivers for the MOTU. There's nothing in its operational parameters that I'm aware of that allow me to select the driver mode. It's worth noting, however, one of the main reasons why I bought the MOTU was because it supported more driver modes than ASIO.

Thanks for all the advice, guys. It's getting late here and time for me to power stuff down. So I'll take up your suggestions in the morning and see what I might find.

This problem suddenly cropped up yesterday. I don't know what I did to cause it to start doing this, but as long as this situation continues, I'm unable to monitor or record audio.

When the Input Echo is engaged, I get a popup that reads "Unable to open audio record device. Device may not support the current project's audio format or may be in use. For help, please visit:" (cakewalk's support web address)

After reading this, I made sure no other applications that might use my audio interface were resident. I then went into Preferences and tried every available driver mode. It didn't make a difference. Then I closely studied in Preferences all the settings that were even peripherally related to this, and I couldn't find any that I might have changed.

This was occurring with my MOTU M4 audio interface, a device I am very fond of, but I was just about ready to blame everything on the device until I decided to do my due diligence. I hooked up another good audio interface that I know works and works well. And after I had it configured, I got the same identical popup.

So it's a relief that it isn't my audio interface. Well, I suppose it's theoretically possible that both could fail at the same time, but I'm not willing to go there just yet. No, I think I managed to set something wrong somewhere and chances are, I didn't even realize what I'd done. I just looked through all the menu options and  drop downs and nothing's jumping out at me as to what's causing this.

So, once again, I've come before you kind folks, hat in hand, hoping you can figure out what I managed to foul up this time.

Been using Cakewalk products since Pro Audio 8 on a Win98 machine. I too believe CWbBL has never been better supported than it is right now. So, hats off to the BL team for believing in and continuing to improve this fantastic software package. 

I too have used other DAW packages, and keep coming back to CW for its power and for what is familiar territory to me. Oh, and in very large part, because it has a Staff View! !!!

Sometimes it's the little things that tend to drive me nuts. Case in point, in a piece I created, where the tune moves from an A section to a B section, on beat 1 of the B section, the main melody note initially disappeared after I bounced to tracks, being replaced by one that was dissonant with the chord at that point. Oh, and when I bounce to tracks, I always bounce the Master Bus and not the Entire Mix. I leave everything else set to defaults.. So anyway, I was able to bring the correct note back -- somewhat -- by altering the melody line at the end of the A section preceding it, which contained that dissonant note at the end of a scale passage. I ended up removing the dissonant note, which finally brought back the correct note.  But the note's length has been truncated, from a dotted quarter to an eighth note.

Once I was able to get the note back, I took a look at any other notes sharing its frequency at that point. I found three, so I deleted them, thinking they may have somehow taken precedence in the mix and were truncating this note's length. But nope, that made no difference.

So, I finally got the note back at one third of its value and I'm puzzled by all this. I'm puzzled that the "Bounce to Tracks" utility didn't correctly record what had been written, first of all. And I'm equally puzzled why it isn't playing the note's time value as written. Oh, one more thing, the audio channel I was bouncing the project to is clean -- nothing has been added to it, effects wise.

So I guess I'm wondering -- are there any insights you might be able to provide that would account for this? Possible work-arounds and/or ways to improve bounce accuracy?

It's been quite a while back that I made this request -- several updates ago, at any rate, so I'm gonna repeat myself. Sorry if this steps on forum rules, but it looks like I was ignored, which I suppose isn't too surprising. I realize the Staff View doesn't rate real high with a lot of folks, but CW does have its share of traditionalists who actually use -- and compose with -- the Staff View. If you're looking at the Piano Roll, an F and E# don't make any difference, but when you look at the music on the Staff, it makes a big difference. 

I'm currently working on a rather lengthy piece with 15 tracks in the key of A (3 #'s), where I make periodic modulations to a Dm7 chord. First of all, I would like to think that CW is intelligent enough, when it sees a Dm or Dm7 or Dm9 or whatever chord how to spell it properly. But this doesn't seem to be the case. So I'm now having to manually go through the piece and correct every single E# to an F in all 15 tracks -- well, 13 really, cuz two are drum tracks.  It's annoying that I should have to do this at all, but it would be very much less annoying if the Staff View had a global search and replace feature (with confirm) to take care of this, the same way any decent wordprocessing software package has had since the 80s.

I also ran into this in another piece in the key of C where, whenever a C# was supposed to occur (think, oh, A major, or D major 7), a Db was displayed instead. Really, CW is gonna spell and A major chord with a Db?  Argggh. Same issue with that piece. Way too much time wasted doing a manual scan and replace.

So, please you baker guys -- how about paying a little attention to the Staff View for a change?

Two excellent points, Mark. I hope the bakers are paying attention.

Huh. I missed that when I did a search. Didn't find anything on the topic, so I went ahead and posted the note. Oh well, please ignore then.

I found out about this yesterday, so I surfed on over the spitfireaudio.com and, sure enough, BBC Orchestra is now free. You have to d/l an app to run it called Labs, but it's also free. 

I tried it out on three string parts in one of my tunes (violins and violas in one part, celli and basses in the other two), and I gotta say the sound quality is quite nice. I'm looking forward to exploring more of this app. 

I have an LG 34" (2560 x 1080) that I run at 100% with all my apps and programs. It's a great monitor, especially if I want to watch a 16:9 video -- which ends up being full screen. I've owned this monitor for about 3 years now, I guess it's been. Its only drawback, if you want to call it one, is it is HDMI only.  With CWbBL, I've had zero problems, both with Win10 and Win7. I really like being able to view 22 tracks or so in the Console View.

I have a set of AKG K240 Studios that I bought several months ago at the recommendation from folks here. These are relatively inexpensive headphones, essentially identical to K 240 Mk II's which sell for about twice as much. They're open back and very comfortable, and when I'm wearing them,  it feels like I don't have any 'phones on at all, and that I'm just leaning in closer to my monitors to catch the minute details. But still, I don't do heavy mixing with them. I use them to check mixes, yes, but I prefer mixing with my studio monitors -- mostly because I have a subwoofer in my system and the AKGs can't pick up the really low bass frequencies that the subwoofer generates. Well, you hear them, but the cans lack any sort of *oomph*.

I'm on another computer at the moment. But I'll give your suggestions a try as soon as I get back to the DAW.

Andres, I should have thought of using the Eraser Tool. Worked like a charm, but it doesn't get rid of the controllers. It just empties them. Good enough for now.

Scook, neither of your methods works for me on this machine -- Win10, latest version of CWbB. Specifically, nothing happens when I hit the delete key. I tried with a few differrent controllers, some empty, some not.

Usually, instead of Edit/Select/All, I just double click on any track number. Same thing.