Hugh Mann

2 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said:

The fact of the matter is that composers running large scoring templates are forced to custom machine/s to get the speed/configuration necessary (to effectively work).

I deal with these folks every day.

If you are watching a popular TV show or Film, a custom PC was most likely used by the composer (either as main machine or VE Pro "Slave").

 

I used Tim Wynn as an example... because long-time forum members will remember him.  Tim was an active forum member.

Tim climbed the composing ranks over the past several decades... and is now scoring feature films.

 

Show me 20 examples of top-tier professional composers who are NOT using any custom PC.

The short answer is... you can't.

The top composers in LA meet once a month.

Many of them actually live in the same neighborhood (strange but true).

All are running custom machine/s...

 

 

 

 

 

  I live in California.  2 hours  south of LA.  I’m  familiar with the scene.  Before that,  I lived in Miami and was part of that scene. I’d name drop,  but it’s considered pretty pretentious and desperate.  It will get you a lot of eye rolls.  Only amateurs  desperate to prove they are legit name drop  around here, lol.  I’ll leave that to you. Maybe a good sales tactic that works for you. Anyway,  It’s macs that I see.  It’s logic.  Everyone I know is using logic. It’s the standard like pro tools.  Or final cut for film.  But really, who cares if they use Mac or  Pc? Is anyone arguing that they are not another set of tools? Macs are great in a lot of situations for many of the reasons I’ve posted.  But windows can be fine too.  They get the job done, not as sleek and sexy,  but that’s fine. Ugly ducklings need love too,.  That’s why I feed trolls. We all need love, lol.   you are  pointing out a very tiny subset of pros that still use pc.  That’s interesting.  But no matter how you try to spin it, it’s still a tiny subset.  Sorry, but you don’t define what pro is.  When you make these assertions, like you are the final authority,  well…you are gonna get push back from those of us that know better.  But It’s good to know that there are some situations where a pc might be more ideal.  Cool.    It’s really you who is making  this a Mac vs pc thing. But then that’s your biz.  You sell custom pc.  You are not exactly  unbiased.  That would be fine, but you go too far with it.  Like claiming an 8gb ram M1 is only good for a paperweight.  That’s bs and really disingenuous, considering you are selling custom pc.  I thing outright lies like that hurt the community.  Someone that buys into your expert shtick may really think those macs are nothing more than a paperweight.  And they’d  miss out on a great machine.  Or you try to make people feel that only your computers and knowledge are pro enough. Talk about unsavory biz models..,I’m not a fan of the way you put down one tool, even lie about it (paperweight)  to elevate the tools you sell.  And the custom pc thing really kind of sucks. Years ago, I was at a studio and we ordered a custom pc.  Forget the name. Something like cheetah  or that was their logo.  Whatever. I remember needing to wait for the guy to fly down to California in order to fix it when we had issues.  Our studio was shut down till he could get to us.  We decided to go Mac after that.   But aside from that,  I didn’t personally get on the Mac bandwagon till 2018.  Before that l stubbornly stuck to windows,  they were better at the time. I’m terms of raw power at least.  But now everything is powerful.   So the sleek package and other niceties are more appreciated. .  If pc becomes better in the future,  I may  go there again.    It’s just a tool.     And let’s see where things stand in a a year. Apple isn’t sitting in its laurels. 

5 minutes ago, bdickens said:

Says the man who hasn't once actually tried to help someone...

 

Tell me something, were you born this much of an ***** or did you have to practice?

It was years and years of practice.  Who are you to judge what help is anyway?  Maybe I'm helping some poor up and coming producer? You just never know.  If you don't like what I have to say.  put me on ignore.  I know trolls feed on attention.  That's why im giving you some.  I like my trolls nice and fat.  🤣

1 hour ago, Bapu said:

Hey, who likes Gibson better than Fender? I'm just curious.

 

I like turtles.   But seriously....Obviously Fender is better.  Geddy Lee plays one, so that means all professionals do.  And even though I've never owned, or even played a Gibson. I just don't  like the way they write their "G".  Seems kind of fruity and communist to me.  Now,  if Gibson had a deal where if you buy a new one for $1800, they will buy it back for $1200 2 years later,  I might consider it.  😁

1 hour ago, bdickens said:

Yeah. I'm a cute little troll.

 

Live your truth. No judgments.  Live your truth.  😆

Just out of curiosity,  are there any companies you do like?  Honestly,  I totally get that all of these companies have something that can be strongly disliked about them.  Throw in Amazon to the pile. Any number of companies.  Or maybe even all of them!  It's one of those things that we have collectively just accepted as a part of  biz.  What's the solution?  Boycott everything?   Pass laws and regulations? Stifle innovation?  Where does it end? Live in a hut on an island?  IDK.  But I do get that these companies practice some shady isht. It's a dilemma. 

2 minutes ago, bdickens said:

The Mac fanboys are trying to move the goalposts now.

That would be fanboy,  not fanboys.  Since you quoted me.  Singular.  Sorry to correct you again. 🤣

Do you even own a Mac?  Doesn't seem like it,  since you didn't know that x86 software works fine via Rosetta.  Are you just a cute little troll.?  😁 You are obviously   not being serious or adding anything to the discussion. Other than put downs and ill vibes.    But that's fine,  Im in a feeding mood today.  🤣😁

 If we can get past all the anti-fanboy or whatever agendas,  we can hopefully have a meaningful, and productive discussion on the merits of one tool, vs another.  That would be healthy and fun,  I think.

There is a point about cost of ownership that I’ve sort of made,  but it’s been overlooked among the noise.

The resale value of a Mac is something that one should factor in when considering the cost.

For example.  I bought my first 16inch MacBook Pro in 2018.  With student discounts (I’m  a student of life and Apple didn’t verify) I ended up paying around 1800$ for it. Got to use it for 2 years (and deal with the horrible throttling).  I then sold my 16 inch MacBook Pro right back to Apple.  They gave me 1200$ for it.  I probably could have gotten more selling it myself,  but Apple makes it very convenient.  They send you box and pre paid labels.  All you do is stick it in  the box, and send it off. So in reality,  I paid $600 for a top of the line laptop.  That's not bad, no matter how you wanna look at it! 

At the time, there wasn’t a 16inch M1 option,  so I tried the M1 air, M1 MacBook pro14, and M1 mini.  Apple lets you try em for 14 days and makes the returns very ez.  With Time Machine,  it was really ez to switch from computer to computer.  All my software and settings..everything was set up as with the old one, in around 30 minutes .  No issues or goblins.

I didn’t like the small screen, so I opted for the Mac mini,  and hooked it up to my 55 inch tv.  Worked great.  I paid less that 700$ for it.  I used the same money Apple gave me for my 2018 MacBook Pro to pay for it.  Then,  the new 16in M1 MacBook Pro came out.  So I sold my M1 mini right back to Apple. They gave me $570 for it, and I turned around and bought the 16 M1 MacBook Pro.

So all in all,  my initial investment has remained.  Just pay a small upgrade fee for the latest and greatest. Sort of like with some of the music software we use.   That’s something to  really consider when assessing the cost of ownership. And something PC windows computers dont offer.  

With PC,  well we all know , you’d be lucky to get a few hundred bucks for what was the top of the line just a few years ago.

4 minutes ago, Paul_in_wales said:

btw, I wasn't saying I know that macs have the "most" professionals using them over PCs - just that anecdotal evidence isn't proof as it's statistically insignificant weighed again the whole.

I like mac, it works great for me - but I won't lose any sleep if PCs are "better" or more professionals use them.  

It'd be interesting to see the results of a well-constructed survey showing which system professionals are using - can anybody point to one?  

I think your point came across clearly.    That would be interesting,  but I agree with you. Really who cares?  using the same pc or Mac that someone else does, isn't  gonna give you their talent.  As Ive stared many times,  these are just tools.  Use whatever makes you creative and you can afford.  What I am seeing more clearly now, are all the hidden agendas that drive these sort of threads.  

5 hours ago, Paul_in_wales said:

How about just bringing a touch of objective common sense to it?

A smaller percentage of a large number is still a significant number in absolute terms - making it easy to cite individual examples without proving anything one way or the other.  

I'd also venture that a man that builds and ships PCs is likely to have his experience skewed towards the group of professionals that are using PCs.

You are far more diplomatic and eloquent than I am. Well stated.  

Now, what are we discussing in this thread?    

16 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said:

Those who think most professionals are using Mac:

I get calls on a daily basis from professional composers... who simply can't get the speed/configuration (from Apple) they need to effectively work.

If you watch TV/Movies... a custom PC was used to create the music on almost all of them.

 

Composer Tim Wynn was a long time Cakewalk user (has since switched to Cubase).

Tim is now scoring feature films for the likes of Marvel.

I can say with 100% certainty that he's not using a Mac.

Nor is his colleague Ernie Lee... as we just shipped his new machine

 

I do think the Apple Mini is a slick little machine.

It's pretty cool for what it is (small form-factor simple machine).

 

 

 

 

Come on.  You know that for very ten examples you share,  someone can put up another 20 that use logic or Macs.  And if you put up another 20, there can be another 40 that are on Apple.  This really does nothing but serve as a commercial.  But you must have known that before posting.

16 hours ago, Jim Roseberry said:

If it takes someone more than about 15 minutes to tweak Win10 for maximum DAW performance, they don't know what they're doing.

If it takes hours/days, they're learning/experimenting.  

 

I build/configure machines literally every day.  (Have done so for 25+ years)

Lots of tweaks involved... but I know exactly what needs to be done... and it's the same every time.

I'd liken building/configuring PCs to Algebra. 

If you know how to solve the equation, you'll always get the right answer.

 

You literally just proved my point.   As I previously stated,  and you confirm, in order to have a window machine work properly, it has to be tweaked. “Lots of tweaks involved”.  In order to know how and what to tweak,  one has to either have lots of knowledge, “  (Have done so for 25+ years) I know exactly what needs to be done”.  Or “to tweak Win10 for maximum DAW performance, (if) they don't know what they're doing. If it takes hours/days, they're learning/experimenting”.   I'll add it can take weeks and months too.  

So then,  if one doesn’t know what to tweak, and one doesn’t want to waste all this time learning and experimenting,  one has to go through someone like you, right?  And you aint any cheaper than a Mac. And all support has to go through you.  That’s an even smaller walled garden than Apple. Can’t even call that a garden.  More like stuck in a plotted plant.  My view, anyway.

So,  since there are  “Lots of tweaks involved... but I know exactly what needs to be done... and it's the same every time” why don’t you share what those tweaks are so everyone can have an optimized DAW  in 15 minutes? Or does someone have to pay for that?  Don’t get me wrong.  I understand trying to make a living in the music biz.  Everyone in it has to hustle.  Even the famous and more successful ones. You got computers to sell.  Not knocking that.  But I do see the bias and conflict of interest.

13 hours ago, bdickens said:

Any minute now the Mac Fanboys will show up and want to argue with a man who's building and shipping out windows machines to professionals.

 

Mac.

Its not just a computer, its a religion.

Im sure you are not seeing the irony in your statement,  but the Anti-Fanboys are just as religious.  Worse, really.

Like your own post.  You stated that people would need to replace all their software.  That’s completely untrue.  Why make such an easily disproven statement?  Now I realize its  because you are an Anti-Fanboy.  Anyway, I corrected that erroneous statement. Because many people really on these forums to expand their knowledge.  That’s the spirit of these discussions.   I’ve learned a lot from these and many other forums.  If people didn’t  post misinformation and lies,  I wouldn’t post as much.  I likely would have been able to achieve my goal of having the lowest post count.  Now, because I'm dealing with so many Anti-Fanboys,  that dream is ruined.😪

The definition seems to fit some of you perfectly.

Anti-Fanboy:

-One who has a hatred of certain people, places, companies, etc. without question. They disregard every single thing posted in favor, as crap.

-Somebody who hates a certain thing for no apparent reasons, and will not listen to logic. Super annoying, and can be worse than an actual fanboy.

-A computer geek that sits all day on his  *****, telling things to people for no reason.   A troll.

Go back and look at my posts.  The majority, if not all,  are correcting misinformation or outright lies (i.e 8gb ram M1 is only good for a paperweight), or fending off personal attacks.

But now I realize I’ve been engaging with Anti-Fanboys.  That’s fine.  Just a good FYI when engaging.

1 hour ago, sarine said:

What does that even mean? I don't know if you're just trying to be ironic, but that's probably not a good idea when you've already made yourself sound like a fanboy and the statement can easily be interpreted to reflect your actual mindset.

 

Oh brother. This kind of personal thing is what gets annoying to me.
 

You do realize that apple still sells computers with intel chips? And I thought the emoticon made it clear I was joking.

But aside from all ur “Mercia first crap, what if I’m Chinese? Maybe I’d be happy for the growth of china.  Anyway, I’m not Chinese. 🤣  

I do have a critique of intel though. For years they just incrementally increased their computing power on a fairly predictable schedule.  They got lazy and didn’t innovate as much as they could. Apple, also an American company, come out with a really great chip. That’s not in debate. So now the rest will have to put on their propeller beanies and figure out the heat/ wattage bottleneck. That’s a good thing.

What Apple did with the M1 chip is really worthy of admiration. Before the M1 chip, it was a fact of life that more power equals  more wattage = more heat = need for cooling= noise =low battery life.  Throttling was something we lived with. The M1 completely changed that.  No throttling on battery and battery lasts 15-20 hours. . I can do full sessions on battery for 10 hrs.  No heat.  No fan noise.  That’s impressive.  And pc windows machines can’t match that right now. That’s impressive and worthy of admiration and praise. Good job Apple! When intel or AMD do something that  leapfrogs tech like that, I’ll be right there admiring that too.  Like I said, I love tech. So can we stop with the personal attacks and put downs?   Thanks. 🤟

29 minutes ago, Doug Rintoul said:

Well, I won't agree to that. But I will make this promise to you. I won't respond to you on this topic again in this or in future threads. However, I do invite you to participate in other topics. Since you really are someone who loves music tech, I am sure you have much more to offer than just perspectives on Apple hardware and software. 

that's really nice.  you are a good man.  I appreciate all your intentions.  thanks.   and btw,  respond to me if you want. I like a good debate. And im sure there will be another one of these Mac vs pc things springing up.  they always do pop up.  its like a weed, lol.   its just the personal stuff that was getting annoying to me.  or the way I was misinterpreting your intentions, at least.  ☮️

23 minutes ago, Doug Rintoul said:

Okay. So you ignore me, then un-ignore me to respond and then ignore me again. 

I actually don't like using ignore. I feel all voices deserve to be heard even if I don't agree with them. Who knows, I may even learn something from a contrary opinion, and even change my own opinion. I think too many people live in echo chambers and are too quick to take offence when someone offer an opposing view.

Hugh, I am not trying to be passive aggressive but maybe that is my tendency. Your words sounded angry to me, or at least it seemed you were pissed off with me. My apology was sincere. And maybe even this statement could be considered passive aggressive. I don't know.

This has spiraled away from the original topic into popcorn territory. I am fine to let it go.

yeah internet stuff, text, and emails can easily be misinterpreted.  I know ive been misinterpreted quite a bit here.  im really just a wisenheimer who loves music tech stuff.  the shunning thing is a joke.  if you know the show, its pretty funny.  but yeah.  too much negativity as it is.  clean slate?  just agree Macs are far superior than anything else and we'll be fine  😆.  

8 minutes ago, Doug Rintoul said:

Point taken about over the top blanket statements. You did see my response to Paul_in_wales though, right?  

I am not sure of the point of the video. 

the video is from the office. if you are familiar with it,  its where Dwight shuns Andy.  He un-shuns him to answer him,  the re-shuns him, lol.  

52 minutes ago, Doug Rintoul said:

I just dislike over the top blanket statements 

1 hour ago, Doug Rintoul said:

 As soon as Apple pulls Rosetta, all your legacy plugins become toast.

 

 

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/ee05bfa9-be18-45a0-9e5e-3c2594eb431a    

Just had to point that out lol.  Ok whatever.  I really don't have a dog in any fight.  And im all for peace and love.  take care.  

1 minute ago, Doug Rintoul said:

I am not opposed to other points views. I do think the M1 Mac could be a great choice, and as I have stated in the past, I think Apple has done marvels with the M1 in terms of power management/performance. I just dislike over the top blanket statements like Macs are the best bang for the buck and M1 blows Intel out the of the water. There are just so many factors when it comes to choosing a platform on which to be creative. 

I am not intending to attack you personally and if I am coming across like that, I apologise. It is just that this seems to be the only topic you participate in, and every time it is a hard defense of Macs. I don't think you realize how you are coming across.

I did not say you were claiming superiority, I said that you were claiming that your choice of a Mac was superior.  Do you not feel that? I am very comforable in my choice of Windows as my daily driver. I don't know where you got the impression that I don't own a Mac. I do own Macs, and I work with them every day. I am just not really enamored with them as some people are.

So there you go. I am not sure what the source of your anger is, but I am sorry I contributed to it.

why do you care what topics I participate in? if you need to know that too,  I only chime in when I have personal knowledge on a subject.  

And now you're gonna do a little passive aggressive put down by saying im angry?  dude enough.  Im not angry, but I am getting annoyed by your agenda of trying to prove me wrong all the time.  Can you leave the personal stuff out of it?  or better yet,  ignore me.  I think I will follow my own advice and just ignore you too.  take care. 

12 minutes ago, Doug Rintoul said:

The Mac M1 Mini is not a complete system. It does not come with a keyboard, mouse, or monitor. You can't upgrade the memory, and if you want more than 256 GB of storage, you have to resort to an external drive. As soon as Apple pulls Rosetta, all your legacy plugins become toast.

If you agree that these discussion tend to go on forever, why do you participate? Why are you trying to convince everyone that your choice is the superior choice? Windows does have something comparable. You have just convinced yourself that it doesn't. Whether you want to admit it or not, your responses approach that of an evangelist.

why do you participate?  do you even have a Mac?  since you ask,  ill tell you why I participate.  because there is often a lot of misinformation and hidden agendas(hate apple,  selling their own computers,  whatever),  in these threads.  Like when the expert claimed an 8gb M1 Mac mini is only good for a paperweight.  And he never even tested one himself.  So I  proved that was an incredibly incorrect statement.  Or when people try to claim they are overpriced.  

someone looking for a good computer could benefit from hearing  other points of views. Or someone that's fed up with windows may see a $650 (or cheaper) m1 Mac as a great choice (it is). M1 air can be had for around $850.   isn't that what the spirit of these discussions is for?  The fact that you think im claiming superiority reflects on your inferiority complex, to tell you the truth.  You are projecting  motives and ways of thinking that are not where im at.  Get off you personal attacks. Put me on ignore if you don't like what I have to say.  Geez. 

45 minutes ago, Reid Rosefelt said:

These discussions will go on forever. 

. They have totally lost the battle for creatives to the PC.    And that's why such a large amount of creative software is PC only--it's the market where the money is.   The war is over and the PC won.  Next.

 

When there is a conversation about price between PC and Apple it is always about the most expensive thing you can buy.  If you compare how much computer you can get (and the price of upgrading RAM, hard dive, etc) for a thousand bucks or less,  there's nothing to talk about.  The war is over.

Which doesn't mean that these conversations won't go on forever, because reality is tribal.  Everybody sees what they want to see, and finds ways to make facts fit into their beliefs.   Human, too human...

All the creatives I know are on Mac. Myself included. What data do you have that says macs for creatives is dead? Or is that just your feeling?   cause that’s a pretty definitive statement for something that’s near impossible to measure.   
 

And you’re  wrong about bang  for the buck.   Mac M1 mini can be had for $650! Even less used.  
 

As far as tribal crap.  I could care less about that.  If windows had something comparable, I’d buy that.  But they don’t.  It’s all just tools anyway.  Use whatever makes you creative and you can afford.  

I agree that these discussions tend to go on forever, lol.  Use whatever you want and can afford. 
 

17 minutes ago, Jim Roseberry said:

A bit over-blown.

Win10 needs properly configured once.

For someone who knows what they're doing, that process isn't lengthy (probably about 15 minutes).

We have Apple machines here to support VE Pro clients.  I tweak OSX as well (disable power-management, etc).

 

A bit overblown? There is a good example posted in this thread already. How much time has he wasted? And he’s still not done.  I wasted time just reading about his issues, lol. I’ll give another example. I have a dell laptop. Latest updates. I wanted to use it with my e drums. I wanted the lowest latency. I have a focusrite scarlet gen2. Kept getting crackles. So I go to disable all the services I can. Still crackles. So I disable whatever is not in use in device manager. Still crackles. So I go to the bios. After all that, the lowest latency I could get without crackles was 5 ms. Not bad but I wasted so much time and was so aggravated by the annoyance.  And now the fan is on all the time ( noise). It’s hot,  and battery lasts 30 min, if I’m lucky.  
 

Plug in my M1 air( before i returned it) . Bingo. None of that crap.  Latency down to 2ms.  can go for 10 plus hours on battery.  Beautiful screen. Silent. Barely warm.    just sleek all around  

to get the same with windows I’d have to acquire the knowledge over time, a or do a lot of research and posting. Or buy from someone like you. And it would not be the sleek package that Apple is. It would be a generic pc So if  I bought from you, I’d have to go to you for support. And your machines are expensive. Not saving anything there. Also, your computers, like all windows computers will have poor  resale value.   Where as Apple will buy your older Mac . Apple gave me 1200$ for my 2018 MacBook pro. They also gave me $570 for my M1 mini. I used that to upgrade to a new machine.  I could have gotten more selling it myself. Try that with a pc. Even the ones you sell.  
 

but in the end. it’s just a tool.  use whatever you want. But there is no denying Apple makes great tools. I’d rather just get to making music.  Price matters, but I’d rather pay a premium if it gets me a premium product. 

32 minutes ago, Fleer said:

I feel the force is weakening in the Intel camp. 

Intel is the dark side. 🤣

All that tweaking and optimizing, just to get a windows machine to work right…I used to think it was fun when I started on computers 20 plus years ago.  But then I got bored with. DPC, bad drivers, bios tweaking…all of that nonsense.  now I consider that an annoyance and waste of time. I want to fire up my daw and get to making music. Not be my own IT guy. 

11 minutes ago, Doug Rintoul said:

if Rosetta works so well, why are people bitching because plugin developers aren't producing M1 native versions fast enough? Is the very small performance gain really worth all that extra development?

Some developers do seem to be dragging their feet. But it’s precisely because Rosetta works so well that they can. For example, UAD. The performance hit is not noticeable in real world  use. An impressive feat, considering it’s translating software written for a completely different architecture. Really, developers could leave it Rosetta compatible. Some are doing that. Like plug in alliance. But we want every last drop of power. Even if we won’t ever use it lol 

56 minutes ago, MusicMan said:

By the time you pay for new versions of software due to Apple dramatically changing the OS and making them incompatible, I'd say not 🙃

Also super easy just to upgrade components with PC, so the second build is often quite a lot cheaper.

AMD in particular is good in new ranges of CPUs traditionally being compatible with older motherboards as well, so people can sometimes get away with very decent upgrades, for crazy cheap by the time they need an upgrade.

Internal storage is so overpriced with Apple as well that if you're matching internal for internal, there's even less chance of Apple competing on price.

Apple has some advantages, but price for me isn't one of them.

I went from producing on PC to trying Apple for a number of years, then back to PC and couldn't be happier 🙂

Under Rosetta, most of my x86 software worked within a month of release. Now when you are talking re using old parts, you are no longer comparing bananas to bananas are you?  ( didn’t want to say apples, lol) . I agree they rip you off on ram and ssd space. Even so, it’s not that different in cost. Maybe a few hundred more if you upgrade the ram and ssd. But you get really high quality  everything. So it’s still pretty even, when you account for the quality of parts and materials used. Like the laptop screens. Excellent. Color calibrated. Lots of quality things like that. 

1 hour ago, bdickens said:

I suppose the time having to replace all your apps cuz they don't work anymore don't count huh?

But that didn’t happen.  I could use pretty much all of my software, via Rosetta , right off the bat. And the few that didn’t work, got Rosetta updates like in a month. Out of all my software, d16 lush 101 is the only one that didn’t work. And they said they will charge for an M1 version. But the rest all worked. I’ve got too much software to list, like many of u I’m sure. But they worked. Now there is a  very small performance penalty when using Rosetta. So Mac user were waiting for M1 native versions.  But I don’t notice any difference between Rosetta and M 1 native. actually it’s  a very impressive technical accomplishment.