Maestro

On 3/28/2021 at 11:27 AM, Josh Wolfer said:

It's becoming more common to only have AAF support film work. In the past, I have requested and received OMF, but I just received a project in AAF and it looks like this is how it's going to be from here on out. 

If there is a way to implement this in Cakewalk, that'd be great. I'm looking at other tools in this thread to do the conversion. It looks like I'm going to have to go that route for now. But the tool is $200. Not cheap. 

Other DAWs and NLEs are dropping OMF support as it's been deprecated and considered a legacy interchange format for years.

Newer software that never had OMF when it was actually de facto is not going to add it, so lacking AAF support will become increasingly more of a handicap, especially if you [also] work in the film post industry.

Some USB Audio Interfaces have issues when plugged into a USB 3.x Port.  With PCs offering less and less USB 2.0 ports, I am avoiding USB 2.0 interfaces moving forward, because I'm lazy and like things to "just work."

I don't think there is anything in any version past 12 worth paying to upgrade to.  The VST3 and 64-bit was the last thing they added to this software that actually mattered.  Putting SFP12 on HB was one of the biggest marketing blunders they could have made.  They should have put SFP11 there, and then 13 would have been a far more attractive upgrade proposition.  I doubt many people upgraded off 12, who got it via that bundle.  There is practically no reason to do so.

For editing Audio, SFP is far better than iZotope RX7.  RX really is for Spectral Editing and Restoration (and for the plug-ins).  It's more comparable to SpectraLayers than it is to Sound Forge Pro.

Sound Forge needs a multi-track "Audio Montage" like Steinberg WaveLab and Acorn Acoustica.  Until it gets that, I don't think Ii'd ever prefer using it over something like Samplitude Pro X (which, in the Suite SKU, bundles it).  The Event Mode is not good enough.

Most of my Cloud Storage use is iCloud, since I own multiple Apple devices.

I have Microsoft 365, but it's really only the Office default save location and backup for User Guides; along with what I use to share files, since it's easy to create expiring links there.

I tried Google Drive but I will let that expire after the year is up, cause I never use it 😛

I have enough HDDs here that I don't need cloud storage.

I can't be bothered to use cloud storage for actual work.  we don't have fiber here.  The latency is just too annoying to deal with, and it's often a lot of data to be uploading as well (once you start bouncing things to audio, or if you record lots of tracks).

There are plug-ins that can do that.  I think T-RackS has one that can be used for this (Master Match), but there are definitely others.

Can't Ozone do this, as well (may need Advanced SKU, I am unsure of that - off the cuff).

8 hours ago, antler said:

I'm sure that's mostly true. There was an issue some people talked about a little while ago when they bought some AIR product (I think) on a cheap deal; it bundled an older version of the iLok driver, and then blue screened their computer when it conflicted with the newer version. Certainly a rare exception rather than the norm, but I'm just saying it can happen.

I'm very glad you and others here are happy with your dongles; may they continue to function flawlessly. I'm happy to use the plugins that I do that don't use a dongle. We all choose the software that suits our purposes and workflows best.

That's because iLok allows installation of that version over newer versions.  Steinberg's eLCC will error out if you try to install an older version over a newer version, and will update the older version with a newer version if you install in the proper order.

iLok's software doesn't do that, so  you end up with all sorts of issues when vendors bundle the older PACE installers into their plug-in/application installer, and don't update the installers when PACE does.  That was the issue with the iLok software from AIR and SONiVOX.  Also, PACE uses a different type of driver architecture for their iLok software, while eLCC installs as userland software.  This is why you have a driver installation dialog when first installing the iLok software, but nothing like that with the Steinberg eLCC.

This conspiracy about software running deep into your OS has never applied to eLCC, or been associated with Steinberg's hardware copy protection.

Unrelatable situations.

The issues with performance affected most USB dongle solutions many years ago because the tech was simply slower and less mature.  Slower USB flash devices.  Slower USB Ports.  Slower computers, etc.  This hasn't been an issue for a long time.  iLok, eLicenser, Codemeter, etc. These have all been performant for years.

Most issues people run into, these days, have to do with people not keeping the software up to date - or activation server issues during mad rush/promotional periods/product release or update times....  All of this can and does happen to products that have never used hardware copy protection, since that's an issue with server resources.

22 hours ago, TheSteven said:

Don't have a problem with dongles but I have NO interest in the the iLok cloud.
I'd rather depend on a dongle than on my WiFi & ISP provider.

Worried about wear on your dongle?  If we're talking about your USB dongle (instead of a groupie problem) then break down and spend $2 on a USB Extension cable and just leave it permanently connected to the dongle.
Breakage worries?  My iLok3 is a small profile metal beastie.

If I accidentally slam it while it's plugged in (another good reason to use a USB extension cable) it's more likely to damage the USB port than the dongle.
My eLicenser is made of plastic but it is also low profile.
 

That's not a very elegant solution if you have to use a laptop, which is why most people don't like having to move the dongle back and forth.

Even a USB Hub is better, and at least has ports for other things (thumb drives, peripherals, etc.).

And wear on the dongle is secondary to wear on the USB ports from constantly inserting and removing the dongle.  Those ports go bad, often long before the dongles themselves; especially on cheaper, mass-produced, OEM MOBOs and many laptops.

6 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

Dorico Pro and SpectraLayers Pro are the first "Pro" products from Steinberg that don't need the USB dongle to work.

I think a lot of their VST Software can use the Soft eLicenser, though bundles like Absolute may require the dongle.

16 hours ago, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

You don't necessarily need an OS to make the PC function. As I mentioned before, the software doesn't need the dongle to work. This is different than OSes not working without a PC. The same applies to MacOS. You don't need an Apple device to run it as it has been proven time and time.

The PC is worthless without an Operating System.  This retort is as weak as weak can be.  The entire purpose of a PC is to run computer software.  How are you going to use your DAW without it?  Well, I guess you can always get an MPC or Maschine+...

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Said downtime policy failed when they released Cubase 11 and many people couldn't use the software because of that. Comparing with the software solution, you don't even need to be connected to the internet for it to work. The license only has to be present in the machine.

Nope.  This has nothing to do with the dongle.  It had to do with the activation servers being completely overwhelmed when the Cubase 11 release happened - particularly with the way upgrades work.  When you upgrade a Cubase License your older license is removed and the new license replaces it.  If the servers are swamped, it can time out in the middle of this happening, resulting in an orphaned license.  98.6% of people got this fixed automatically when the world stopped spamming the check button and the servers weren't completely swamped.  Even people who were not using dongles for products ran into issues, because the dongle had nothing to do with it.  Don't think you even understand what happened there.  PreSonus and other companies have had server issues in the past when there was a mad rush to get their products after a release.

This is why many companies do staged rollouts for digital products.

You can say that Steinberg's Activation servers are shite... but again, this has nothing at all to do with the dongle.  Even people using the soft elicenser software ran into the same issue - this is why they tend to shut down their entire store when this happens 😉

This can happen to any company, given the right circumstances.  Servers don't have unlimited resources, and bad things happened when they are overwhelmed.

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Secondly, many people have internet, but not all have the luxury to have a music store that carries that piece of equipment. The vast majority of music stores around the world don't sell software, let alone dongles.

If you can afford Cubase a $20 dongle is not a problem, and Amazon is everywhere.  I don't think many people in third world countries are buying $550 DAWs.  Ignorable "issue," really.

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For ilok maybe. For the eLCC, it's two clicks away to send your licenses to cloud and other two to generate new licenses for transfer. Much faster than driving to a store to buy a new dongle.

Even faster is unplugging the dongle and plugging it into the other computer, and having it just work immediately without constantly having to move activations between PC <-> Cloud <-> PC.  Even my Steinberg software that doesn't require a dongle is on a the dongle, for this very reason.

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Invariably, you're gonna lose one of those dongles, then not buy another one because you already have the desktop one. Then you're gonna lose the desktop one.

No, when I lose one I will get another and use the warranty service to get a new activation code, but I won't lose access to the software because I have another.

You're really relying on the worse case scenarios and then positing them as invariants...  Interesting.

But I don't lose them, because I have an attachment that plugs into the Kensington lock slot on my laptop, so the dongle is attached to it.  It doesn't move until I unlock and detach it.  But hey, not everyone thinks about these things...  Maybe someone will use a fence cutter and steal it, one day?

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A lot of new ilok software only gives you one activation because they work on the assumption that you'll either move that dongle around or have the same cloud session across.

Nope.  A lot of the older iLok software only gives you one activation because they worked on that assumption.  Most new iLok titles give you 2-3.  Even Pro Tools gives you 2-3 activations.  Older items like the Exponential Audio plugins only give you 1.  But they're usually on sale for almost nothing, anyways.

I have tons of iLok'd software, and what you say is definitely inaccurate.

On 3/7/2021 at 10:08 AM, Cookie Jarvis said:

I'm still running an iLok1 along with the e-Licenser...I've never had any trouble at all. I've had trouble with machine activations and various server problems but nothing with the dongles. Sure they can break if you treat your stuff like a 2 year old

Bill

 

 

They break because Steinberg only gives one license, which means people have to take their only dongle on the road with them, or constantly unplug to movoe between machines.

If they gave two activates for the software, people would keep one dongle in their desktop at all times and use the other one to move between their laptop or whatever.  If one Dongle breaks, the other is still pristine in the desktop, so it's less disruptive - and owning the dongle is less risky overall.

I think the policy behind how many activations you get for the software exacerbated the "complaints" about the dongle.  A lot of software that uses iLok gave 2-3 activations; even when they were dongle-only.

On 3/5/2021 at 6:01 PM, antler said:

Personally my take on it is if I buy some software, I shouldn't need to buy an additional piece of hardware too. I shouldn't need to install low-level drivers that might impact my PC's performance, or potentially give it additional reasons to blue screen. If the dongle stops functioning one day, I shouldn't need the inconvenience and cost of sending it off somewhere to recover the licenses and buying a new dongle. I shouldn't need to upgrade the dongle (e.g. there are three generations of iLok dongle). I shouldn't need a different dongle for different software, e.g. iLok/e-licencer. I shouldn't need the have USB ports taken up by this. If I lose the dongle, I shouldn't lose my software licenses.

I understand the advantages of a dongle, e.g. transferring to a new machine is simple. They're just not something I want to deal with at the moment. Not trying to convince anyone else of anything; just explaining my take on the dongle thing.

Personally, you buy an entire PC to use your DAW, so I'm not seeing the point.  The dongle isn't really that big of a deal, and I don't think that rationale is totally appropriate considering we buy hardware to use software fully ALL the time - including things that plug into our USB ports - Audio Interfaces, MIDI Controllers, etc.

There is nothing with the eLCC software that interferes with PC performance or gives it additional reasons to BSOD.  It has existed over a decade.  We have enough data to say this - definitively.

Steinberg has a Zero Downtime Policy.  That is a "solved problem."  Dongles are sold at Guitar Center.  Many people can just drive to the store and get one.

I understand why people don't like the dongle.  It has clear disadvantages, on a practical level.  However, I think a lot of what you write is an exaggeration of cautiousness.

Even when they get rid of the dongle, I wouldn't be surprised if it remains optional and a TON of people continue to use it.  I think I will likely keep my licenses on the dongle because having to manage machine licenses is a PITA - particularly when replacing machines.

Frankly, the biggest issue with Steinberg licenses is that they only give you one per purchase.  If they did like iLok and gave 2 licenses that you could split across two dongles (i.e. Desktop + Laptop), the dongle would have been less of an issue.

A $20 dongle is simply not a consideration when buying a DAW.  That is a rounding error when balancing my books.

On 3/7/2021 at 6:58 AM, Vernon Barnes said:

I don't know why I am thinking about this, pure GAS, I have NI Battery, Arturia Spark, D16's 909 and several others and I have seldom used them, but only $9.99........ 🤪

This is a drum synth, not a drum sampler - though it does have two sampler slots.

Comparing this to NI Battery is like comparing DrumSynth 500 to Strike 2.

D16's 909 is a Synthesized recreation of a specific drum kit, so a bit different.

DrumSynth 500 is basically comparable to the Drum Synths in Native Instruments Maschine software.  I think Falcon 2 has Drum Synths, as well.  They actually added this plug-in to the Akai MPC 2.9 software to compete with Maschine 2 in that area 😉 I wouldn't be surprised if it was developed for this purpose (and released as a plug-in to further monetize it).It's worth $9.99.  Not sure it's worth the MSRP, though.  You can get Maschine 2 for less than $149 (via bundle with an M32 Keyboard) and that's the price point of sound design tools like Steinberg Backbone, which are simply better pickups if you're into sound design for Drums (and other stuff).

Buy at $50 or less.  Skip at $50 or more and invest in something else, IMO.  Skip if you already have the MPC 2 Software, since you're likely doing your beat making there if you use Cakewalk as a main DAW, anyways.

On 3/6/2021 at 8:12 PM, John Vere said:

I don't think this is close to being possible. The only way they can even guess is by counting the people who are now registered in Bandlab log in. But then out of those there are unknown numbers who created an account and never used the software. Actually the same account is also for the Bandlab app so even more complicated. 

They can see how many people have authenticated Cakewalk to their account. But that would still overcount due to the number of people who probably tried the DAW, uninstalled, but didn't bother to delete the BandLab account afterwards.

Also, the DAW did ship with data sharing enabled by default. Maybe that has changed, but if so that could be a way for them to check this 😉 

On 3/6/2021 at 4:23 AM, Tezza said:

How do they continue to find so many "new features" all the time. Anyone buying any DAW these days is already going to get something that will probably take them years to master and have everything you could possibly think of for music making. Surely there is a ceiling on how many more "new features" can be incorporated into a DAW or at least those features that would actually be useful to the home music maker.

It's actually turning me off a bit. Everytime I see "new features" it says to me "more clutter" and "more complicated" and of course "more that can go wrong".

Now if they said they were including some fantastic new megagig library or synth with really stellar sounds, that might be interesting.

When you're missing lots of features relative to the competition, you can easily add in new features all the time.  Lots of these things are solved issues, and some of the features are just ported over from other products (i.e. the score editor that comes from Notion, etc.).  This makes it "easier" to develop and add them in.

When you have the feature set of a DAW like Cubase, it's a lot harder to just "add new features" unless you start dipping into market niches that Steinberg doesn't really target (i.e. Adding Clip Launchers and things of that nature).

Studio One is still a relatively young DAW, so they have a few years to add lots of features in updates and use as a selling point.  Those will become less and less impactful as the DAW matures further.

Studio One is okay, but I use it primarily as an "on the road" DAW on my laptop, though.  I don't really like the UX, but it gets the job done when I don't want to travel with dongles.

On 3/6/2021 at 9:51 AM, Bruno de Souza Lino said:

SpectraLayers Pro allows to split other features and also deconstruct audio into its basic building blocks(pitch, transient and rithm), then edit each aspect separately.

I don't need that.

I only need to be able to get the vocals out because I do music design for sports (Gymnastics floor routines, figure skaters, etc.) and the vocals in popular music sometimes make it impossible to get a good edit with the music.  Removing them remedies that 😉 

I remove the vocals, and then I cut it like any classical piece, etc. and I can always just at the vocals back at different places where needed.

On 3/3/2021 at 7:42 AM, cclarry said:

Spectral Layers Pro is only available in the Suite version of Samplitude, which contains many extras over
just the regular version of Pro X.  It is the bundling of the additional products, like Sound Forge Pro and 
Spectral Layers, that makes it a "Suite"

Samplitude Pro X Suite is basically what used to be called Samplitude Pro (and used to cost $1,000).

Current Samplitude Pro is basically a cut down version of that.

Basically, the better Restoration and Mastering features are what separate Pro X Suite from Pro X.  The Suite portion is simply a really terrible renaming of a product line.  The other stuff in the package actually post-date the name change 😉

Samplitude is a decent DAW, but the performance is terrible, and I had to ditch it.  $199 is too high, considering I'd be buying bug fixes and MAGIX is not great with support, especially once a new version hits shelves (they release patches, but they're miniscule and do not address the bigger issues, as those issues drive locked-in users to upgrade).

I'd only buy this if I wanted SpectraLayers ($100 cheaper than from Steinberg), but I don't need it since Cubase comes with the One version and it does the one thing I need from it - remove vocals from music 😛 

There just isn't enough in this that is worth the $300.  I already have Total Studio 2 MAX and cross graded to SampleTank 4 MAX.

I guess I can't be disappointed.  I basically already own 80% of this, already.  And probably 200% of what I'd actually care about.

If you have TS2 MAX and ST 4 MAX< you already have "most of the stuff" in this, because they didn't really add much.  They just upgraded the version of SampleTank and added a few products/expansions they've released since then.

TS2M owners already have AmpliTube 5 SE with all of the 4 MAX content unlocked, so that is not really a big upgrade to me.

That being said, I do use Windows 10, so it's not like Apple will obsolete my software with the next macOS release... and I have everything I need from them; so I don't foresee myself wanting to buy anything else form them in the foreseeable future.  Frankly, I think their products waste inordinate amounts of SSD space, anyways... and I hate that you cannot uninstall specific components without wiping out the entire thing and reinstalling only the parts you want.

If I got this, I'd be edging towards needing to buy a 2TB SSD, so the cost is basically the upgrade price + the SSD upgrade cost, effectively.

On 2/21/2021 at 6:04 AM, Tezza said:

It's not really for me, the lack of third party supported libraries turns me off. They are not cheap either. It's confusing as well,  there are 4 different versions within the Halion ecosystem. They need to do something like a cut down version of Halion in Cubase Pro with an upgrade to the full version, get rid of that Halion Sonic SE rubbish. Which is why this is being suggested, it's no different to what NI do with their Komplete range. When your falling behind in product sales as opposed to your competitors, you need to try something different. I don't agree that their current position in relation to the sales of Halion etc is not related to their marketing plan.

I really don't like Steinberg's confusing marketing and registration processes, or their lack of ticket support depending on which country you live in, or their backward web page for my internet account (looks like something from the 90's). Also, the choice between the annoying dongle or the unfathomable soft E licenser. I like Cubase but that is where my relationship with Steinberg ends. That groove agent is another unintuitive weird thing. I'll stick with Battery and the NI stuff and I also now prefer dedicated third party specific instruments, so they are being bought and used more rather than the bundles with a particular company.

They have a lot of work to do to catch up with competitors like Presonus who have a fantastic web page for your account, a simple registration process and worldwide, quick, ticketed support.

However for my uses, Cubase is better than Studio One at the moment.

 

The lack of third party libraries is irrelevant to the people to whom HALion (or Falcon) is attractive, because those people want it for sound design and for actual sampling (not simply playing back sample libraries).  For those things, it tis far ahead of Kontakt and practically on par with UVI Falcon.

It's a Mega Synth and Sampler.  That's the point of it.  Libraries are icing on the cake, to those people.  They will happily run those through Kontakt Player.

People who need third party libraries need to go with Kontakt.

HALion is more attractive to Sound Designers for its deep feature set in that area, than it tis to composers - who generally just want the best sample libraries the market has to offer.  Those are going to be on Kontakt.  They will be on Kontakt for the foreseeable future.  HALion could cost $99.99 with a $9.99 upgrade off Cubase Pro, and this would not changed - at least not fast enough for it to matter to you.

While it may seem "expensive" to you, HALion can replace A+ Analog, Wave Table, and Granular Synths that - together - mount up to 2-3x its cost combined.  That's where the value is.

There are some great orchestral Libraries for HALion, but if you can't afford it you aren't going to be able to afford something like Iconica Suite.  They should play in Sonic SE, anyways /shrugs

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I've had nothing but good experience with Steinberg support.  Prompt, quick, and they always followed through to resolution.  Hell, they even refunded a dongled purchase to me because of an issue I was having with my audio interface.  Without question.

PreSonus support is renown for being terrible.  I am not sure how you arrived at that conclusion, but experiences do vary!  My response times from their support is in the realm of 3 days or so, and it's always a PITA to get to the answers they send with how the system is set up - sometimes you have to log in to view it, sometimes it bugs out and it doesn't show up, etc.  I haven't quite figured that out, yet.

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I agree that MySteinberg needs a revamp.  I think the site is generally fine, but managing activations is really outdated and needs to be redone - particularly for soft-elicensers.

But I doubt Steinberg sees PreSonus' web site as a reason to be alarmed, Lol...

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Groove Agent has a similar layout to Impact XT in Studio One, and multiple other similar instruments (i.e. Drum Rack in Ableton, Kong in Reason, etc.).  Not sure how that is unintuitive.  Battery's layout is generally the outtlier, viewed hollistically.  In any case, it's a pretty good plug-in 😛 And cheaper than HALion, so less cause for pricing complaints, I guess...

On 2/21/2021 at 5:50 AM, cclarry said:

The ORIGINAL point wasn't that there wasn't/shouldn't be an upgrade path from the FREE Halion Sonice SE,
but rather that there was no upgrade path for purchaser's of CUBASE PRO.  If they wanted to sell more product,
they would/should offer Cubase Pro users an upgrade path.  Studio One includes Impakt, for free, and then, if you want
the more advanced features, you can buy the Editor Add On. 

COMMON SENSE Marketing says "Hey, if our customers pay $600 for a DAW, shouldn't we throw them a bone 
to spend more money with us? (which is something SERIOUSLY lacking these days)"

So I think people missed the point entirely...it had nothing to do with the FREE Halion Sonic SE, but rather with Cubase 
Pro users getting an upgrade path to Halion Full Version, so hopefully that has been cleared up.  Really they should include
a PAID version of Halion with Cubase Pro ANYWAYS!

1.  No precedeent for this.  Like stated, other DAW developers do not give upgrade rights to their full sampler/sound design applications from the DAW, and they ship a playback instrument with them.

2.  You mean PresenceXT, an instrument that is locked to Studio One and has no value once you decide you don't want to use it.  All of your sample libraries and presets locked to it - completely lacking in portability.  Yes, the editor will be cheap, for that reason.  PresenceXT Editor isn't really HALion 6 or Falcon 2 level product, anyway.  It deserves to be cheap.  It's a cheap product.  It's basically Structure 2 with scripting.

3.  Common Sense according to whom?  The people developing or selling the product, or the people who want it at a discount? 😉  Steinberg's primary market segment is Digital Audio Workstations.  I think you assume they are competing primarily with NI when that really isn't the case.  HALion exists to round out their ecosystem, not bury the competition.  The brunt of Cubase's user base are people who will skip it and go straight to Komplete and Kontakt Libraries even when there are deals on HALion.  HALion's pricing is not the problem. It's priced very competitively.  Developer support is, and that developer support has nothing to do with the pricing.  Other Samplers have the same problems.

4.  Additionally: "Upgrade cost" is covered by the 2-4 30-50% off deals they run yearly.

5.  Can't miss something that doesn't exist 😉

I don't see why they should include a paid version with Cubase Pro.  HALion is comparable to Falcon 2, and basically does the job of 60% of Native Instruments Komplete in one application/plugin.

NI doesn't give you Kontakt 6 with their $1,000 S88 Keyboard, so I don't see why Steinberg should give you HALion Sonic 3 or 6 with their $550 DAW.  They bundle enough sound content.  TThere are already DAWs on the market that give you far less, yet cost more.

Why complain about this in a thread about a 30% upgrade eon the product, anyways.  It's like $219 tax-free at Best Service during this promotion, FFS.  That is not "too expensive" for this product.

On 2/20/2021 at 5:22 AM, Starship Krupa said:

Yes! As things worked out, the SONAR Platinum license holders are getting their updates, and those updates are now developer-driven rather than marketing, so, bonus.

To help you feel better, here are some things that people who only started with CbB don't get: Dimension, Drop Zone, Session Drummer, Square 1, Cyclone, PSYN II, Rapture, Z3ta, Lounge Lizard Session, Ultra Analog Session, Strum Session, True Pianos, Addictive Drums, Melodyne, BiFilter,  Blue Tubes, BlueVerb, LP EQualizer, LP Multiband compressor, TS transient shaper, Channel Tools, ProChannel modules I'd love to have like Panipulator, Concrete Limiter and PC-2A. Some of those are proprietary Cakewalk products that seem less and less likely to see the light of day as time goes on. They can't be had for any amount of money.

Also whatever amount of time you got to use the program between when you bought your license and April 2018.😀

I don't think that anyone else got over on the SONAR license holders, I'm really grateful that we all bought in and kept the company going for 30 years. I say "we" because I was one myself, back in 2000 or so, around the time that it became "SONAR."

Those people probably made out a better, since they get to spend that money on better plug-ins and virtual instruments.  Half of the Cakewalk stuff was super old and not updated in like a decade.  There wasn't really that much value in a lot of that.  Whether they see the light of day is only relevant if they are either throwon into the package as freebies or sold for ridiculously low prices.  Otherwise, there are better plug-ins to be had on the market; and many SONAR users used those plug-ins.

SONAR license holders who paid for a decade or more deserved to have the DAW developed as aggressively back then as it is now, and it honestly wasn't.  BandLab has done what most companies that purchase a product and make it a freebie don't...  They've actually made it a better, more attractive product.

Imagine if Cakewalk was purchased by MAGIX or Corel?

On 2/19/2021 at 8:15 PM, Tezza said:

Looking for libraries or patches for the Halion Sonic SE leads to a few dead pages, experiments and a group of users circulating patches.

Wanted to quote this snippet, but forgot.

Exactly my point.  HALion's relative popularity is hindered by the fact that almost no third parties are supporting it.

UVI is a lot more active in creating their own [pretty good] sample libraries and synths for Falcon, but UVI is a Sample Library and Synthesizer company.  Steinberg's focus isn't solely in that area.  The effort that UVI puts into their Sample Libraries and Synths goes largely into Steinberg's DAWs, and vice versa.

This is why many people are told to get UVI Falcon 2 over HALion when they are torn between the two.  HALion has a better Factory Library, but it really is no competition once you look at the libraries these companies have available for sale beyond that.  UVI definitely wins.

I prefer the HALion software, but the library ecosystem does leave one wanting (mostly for sampled instruments - I think they're both pretty good and almost evenly matched for Synthesis...).

Best Service is for the win.  $169 Tax-Free crossgrades during the Holiday Season!

I pretty much only buy software from there now, when possible.  The prices are almost always lower than MSRP, and no Taxes.

On 2/19/2021 at 2:34 PM, 53mph said:

A dumb question... I'm guessing all of us here use CbB, right?

Why do you need to buy another DAW? Isn't it overkill?

*Waiting for flack* 😬

Many have moved to using another DAW as their primary but stick around for the Community, and because they use Cakewalk as a backup.  It's also the place to be to keep track of developments surrounding the DAW.  The devs aren't really that active on Social Media, FWIS.

It's kind of hard to come back to SONAR/Cakewalk from another DAW if you've left and actually learned how to use it.  A lot of Quality of Life has to be sacrificed in that case.  You know the saying...  People never know what they're missing until they experience it.  That grabs a lot of people when they use competing products.

Those people most solid in sticking to it tend to be those that never left, or those that got another DAW, but never really committed to it - because learning a new DAW [naturally] tanks your productivity for a time (and I doubt those are "still buying other DAWs").

Typically, web forums bias to a product's most reliable user base.  The more fickle users typically aren't very active on them.

On 2/18/2021 at 12:32 PM, mdiemer said:

Your statement that Cakewalk's staff view is bad really only has validity for you. 

Peace.

Not quite.  It's just that most people who think so aren't really going to bother to both:

• Continue to use it, and
• Come here to say so.

They will use something else and never say anything.  Most people who ditch/switch DAWs do not advertise it, or why.  This is what makes it so hard to develop in a direction for user retention.  Most feedback come from the reliable users, not those that are more fickle.  Developing for a shrinking base of committed users doesn't grow a problem.  This is the issue SONAR ran into.

If you looked beyond these walls, you'd see that I am not alone.

How can SONAR's notation editor, as an editing tool, be the best you've ever used when it can't display the MIDI properly, meaning it also cannot edit the MIDI properly?  Can you create a grace note in the Sonar Staff View/Editor?  I can in Samplitude, and I'm pretty sure the code in their Score Editor is about as old as SONAR's - and even if it isn't, it probably hasn't been touched since it was put in there, cause "MAGIX."  Have you even touched Studio One 5's new Score Editor?

The score editor needs tons of improvements in this product.

The articulation maps are great.  Probably the closest any product has gotten to Cubase Expression Maps, thus far (Studio One's implementation is anemic), but the score editor is really bottom-barrel.

On 2/18/2021 at 3:37 PM, Tezza said:

You miss the point completely. This is an opportunity for Steinberg to market Halion better by including a cut down version in Cubase (with some half decent sounds) and then providing an upgrade path to entice you to upgrade to the full version.

Didn't miss the point.

They already bundle a cut down version with Cubase (with some Half-Decent Sounds).  This is what HALion Sonic SE is?

Full version upgrade path is not needed.  Almost no one in the industry does this, so I am not sure why this is at issue.  There was not an upgrade path off of Structure Free to Structure in Pro Tools. There is no upgrade path off of UVI Workstation to Falcon 2 or MOTO MachFive.  There is no upgrade path off of Kontakt Player to full Kontakt (only a few ways to exploit free Kontakt Player Licensed 3rd party instruments for an upgrade - like Embertone Arcane).

On 2/19/2021 at 8:15 PM, Tezza said:

If Halion Sonic SE could play Halion libraries and it could also be used in other DAW's outside Cubase without problem then there might be a better reason for having it  but none of this is made clear. What restrictions would be placed on those libraries even if Halion Sonic SE could play them.

I clearly indicated that this was the case.

It's there so that you can play HALion Libraries in Cubase or any 3rd party DAW.  It runs Standalone and in any other DAW.  The installer you get for HALion Sonic SE in Cubase 11 is literalyl no different that the one you'd use if you were using Pro Tools, Cakewalk, Studio One, or Ableton Live.  It's it's own product, it's just bundled for convenience.

Installing Cubase 11 does not install HALion Sonic SE.  It has its own installer.

HALion's popularity, like Falcon and MachFive is hindered not by Steinberg's (or UVI's) "Marketing Strategy" but rather the domination of alternative solutions like Kontakt, Omniscphere, and Serum.  Even if they gave $100 Off of HALion Sonic/$50 off HALion 6 for buying Cubase, most people would still get the freebie and run to a Kontakt 6 Upgrade for $249 with the upgrade option to Komplete 13, or buy something like Serum, Pigments 2 (often on sale for 50% off), Zebra or Omnisphere for Synthesis instead; because they're buying the workstation platform based not on what it can do - but what ecosystem it has backing it.

HALion doesn't have enough third-party support to increase its attractiveness, despite being a better Sampling and Synthesis platform than Kontakt (IMHO).

On 2/18/2021 at 10:08 PM, mkerl said:

And Halion Sonic Se does not make any sound without loading a Library or an Intrument. When something sounds bad, it's the  library, not the player. 

Correct.  A lot of the stock HALion Sonic SE patches in Cubase are the General MIDI stuff.  Basically, the equivalent of what you get out of TTS-1 in Cakewalk, though it sounds better (because they seem to come from one of the better Yamaha machines), they are still not as good as a decent Sample Library and were not designed to be that good.  They're usually notated with a [GM ###] marker, BTW.

HALion Sonic 3 adds the better libraries namely:  Studio Strings, Hot Brass, The Eagle/The Raven Pianos, World Instruments, and World Percusion.

Basically, the rough equivalent of the Kontakt Factory Library plus some decent Synths and stuff.

HALion 6 is for when you want to do Surround, need massive patches in one Instance of the Sampler (far more channel output), need/want the Wave Table Editor, or need/want the capability for creating your own Sample Libraries (which can be used in Sonic and Sonic SE).

I also think Multi-Monitor Support is limited to HALion 6, and the UI is more flexible (the players I think have a locked UI layout - but they also have far less panels and UI areas).

HALion has a pretty high learning curve through, since most people are only used to using something like Kontakt Player (or Kontakt as a player).  Sonic and Sonic SE are pretty self-explanatory, but HALion 6 is likely to throw many users into a state of Shock and Awe the second they open the application/plugin.

Personally Opinion:  Absolute is a better deal than buying HALion 6, except during sales like this (the 30% off price is very attractive, IMO), and I'm not sure I'd ever buy HALion Sonic 3 considering HALion 6 includes Sonic 3 the price difference is not high enough considering the lack of editing capabilities in Sonic 3.

If they have a 50% off sale for HALion, chances are the same sale is also running on Absolute 4, so it makes less sense to go just for HALion in that case.  Picking up Groove Agent 5, Retrologue 2, Padshop 2, The Grand 3, HSO, OCM, and a few additional good synths plus some of their better libraries (Granular Guitars, Prime Cuts, etc.) for the price difference is high value.

So, waiting is likely to throw many users into the same conundrum as now.  "Should I settle for HALion 6 or pay the difference for Absolute."

Tried ordering but cannot set Country to USA.  Bank will just lock my card if I try to submit this order, especially to a foreign merchant.

EDIT:  Purchased at Producer Spot.

Waves plugins are locked to one machine unless you keep a subscription, so I've already uninstalled the CODEX/Waves stuff as I don't want to lock myself into that.  The Tracktion synth is okay, though.