norfolkmastering

After checking the drivers and firmware were up to date, I did a factory reset of the unit and changed to one of the 'core' USB sockets which wasn't part of a plug-in USB card, in the PC.

So far it's working fine again.

I was recording some piano today using Sonar and a single USB connected MOTU interface set to internal sync source.

On playback I heard what could only be described as momentary speed variations, just like tape machine wow.

I loaded up a test tone into Sonar and played it.  Sure enough, I'm getting occasional random 'wow' so little speed variations almost as if the master clock in the MOTU is varying.

Sonar clock is set to Source Audio as I always use.

This is the first time I've ever come across this and I'm at a loss as to what to do.

Thanks for the explanation Mark, it's really useful to better understand this stuff.

I don't want to have to use two hardware profiles but my larger hardware system (which I use when working in hybrid analogue/digital mode) uses six MOTU ultralites plus two hardware controllers,  which is pretty well on the edge of what Windows/Firewire/Sonar copes with.  It's a bit clunky!

So for composing I use a single MOTU unit which is not practical to power at the same time as the full set up (I tried, but seven Firewire connected devices was too much for Windows to cope with).  So I connect the single MOTU by USB and then only power up the MOTU units I am going to use.

The work-a-round, once the desired hardware set up is powered up, is to reboot Windows before firing up Sonar.  This seems to bring the Sonar boot-up time back down to normal (using the appropriate custom hardware profile).  This ties in with your comments about Windows remembering the previous set up.

My intention is to move to three MOTU 16As but I can't find a MIDI router to replace the MIDI ports I currently get from the ultralites.  I've tried two MIDI routers but they all seem to struggle to work in multi-client mode (which I need).  The ultralites do work okay in MIDI multi-client mode due to the Firewire interface.

Once the new Windows 11 MIDI Services release is made public (sometime in 2025) I should have a way forward with the MIDI router issue.  It promises (fingers crossed!) to offer multi-client support for any current MIDI router with Windows Class Compliant drivers.  It is also going to offer what I currently have to use MIDI-OX and loopMIDI for (MIDI routing and virtual MIDI ports).  I'm going to test all of that as soon as the public release is available.

Thanks for the suggestion.  I've had a go at creating two hardware profiles.  See 

I have taken your suggestion a stage further:

With hardware set 1 powered up, I deleted both aud.ini and ttsseq.ini

Then I started Sonar.

Checked I was happy with settings (e.g. pan law) then saved as a custom hardware config which can be loaded as part of a customised Sonar shortcut.

Next I powered down and then power up with hardware set 2.

Again I deleted aud.ini and ttsseq.ini and loaded

Then I started Sonar (from the standard shortcut).

Again checked I was happy with the settings and saved as a second custom hardware config with its own customised Sonar shortcut.

This means that the aud.ini and ttsseq.ini files only contain the audio and midi listings of the hardware for their related hardware.

I'm still experimenting so I'll let you now if that solves my slow Sonar loading issue.

Yes I've checked my "open all devices" is not checked.

I found an earlier discussion about this whole topic at 

I created two hardware profiles today and I am getting messages that they are being successfully applied.

Due to MOTU driver limitations, I only power up the audio/MIDI interfaces for the profile I want to load.

When switching between hardware profiles (which in my case means after powering down the PC and interfaces) the first loading of Sonar is extremely slow (at least 50 seconds after the SONAR splash screen appears).  After that the loading time is much faster for the same profile.

I have a couple of questions:

1. When you save a new hardware profile does it simply make a copy the AUD.INI file which was used when loading Sonar with the default profile?

2. Should I have deleted the default AUD.INI file before loading Sonar with the default profile BEFORE creating the custom profiles?

I am trying to understand why Sonar is struggling to load when changing profiles?

Do you mean the ‘new’ Sonar? The link seems to be from the legacy documentation?  Is there any up to date documentation on how to use hardware profiles?

It would be great if the Sonar dev team could confirm what’s possible with the current release. I’ve found a few other posts of folks with similar issues when changing hardware configurations.

I've had a look through the Preferences menu but the only 'Advanced' item I can find is File\Advanced.  I can't see anything to do with profiles there.

There are some options under Customization\Backup/Restore Settings which might be what you are referring to?

It doesn't seem to include a means to set the command line switch but that may be my lack of understanding!

If you get a chance to check and give me a few tips on how to set this up, that would be great.

On 3/13/2023 at 4:41 PM, msmcleod said:

An easier way to switch between hardware profiles is in the works.  It probably won't make the next release (which should be out later this month), but hopefully the following one.
 

I just raised a new post about this topic here 

Was the easier way to switch between hardware profiles every implemented?

This morning I powered up and loaded my main set up (after having powered down yesterday after a session with my composing set up (see above).

The six MOTU audio interfaces were recognised fine by the MOTU app but Sonar struggled to get past the first SONAR screen.  Previously it has taken up to a minute to get past this initial screen but today it won't at all.

Did a PC reboot and Sonar started after about 45 secs.

Sonar seems to struggle with changed audio interface hardware so your thoughts on this and my previous post would be welcome.

20 hours ago, User 905133 said:

System common / system realtime messages don't have a MIDI channel.

Thanks for the info, really useful.

I've been reading up on the new Windows 11 support for MIDI, so it looks like a solution for me when the public release happens later this year.

It looks like it provides:

- multi-client support

- MIDI routing (like you can do using MIDI-OX)

- Virtual MIDI ports (similar to loopMIDI)

They claim it will work with any existing MIDI router which is Windows class compliant.  So that means that a MIDI router like the miditech MIDIFAC 8x8 should work with Sonar and my external hardware controllers.  We shall see!

I got the software for my custom hardware controllers updated. It works but the MOTU micro light MIDI router is not very reliable when used multi client (Sonar and MIDI-OX).

So I’m back on the lookout for a true multi client MIDI router.

Has anyone had experience of the new Window 11 multi client drivers? I think they support MIDI as well so that may be the way to solve my issue.

I have two setups when using Sonar.

My composing set up has a single MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid USB audio interface and no external hardware controllers.  Recording is all digital.

My main recording and mixdown set up has six MOTU ultralite mk3 Firewire audio interfaces and two external hardware controllers with a complex MIDI routing arrangement via MIDI-OX.  This is used with a lot of audio I/O in a hybrid digital/analogue set up with tape machines.  Recording is digital, analogue or both.

Both run from the same PC.

I only power up the hardware I am going to use for a session.

If I power everything up, then the total loading of seven MOTU units and the controllers and the MIDI stuff begins to cause the whole system to struggle. 

If I've been using the main set up  and then next day power up the composing set up, Sonar is quite slow to load and of course I get the warning that two controllers could not be connected to.  Occasionally I get problems with random changing of audio sampling rate and have to power down and back up again to get it all sorted.

Is there any way to store two set ups in Sonar so that switching between my composing and main recording set ups could be easier, load faster and be less prone to hiccups?

I know that the Cakewalk stores some information about the audio interfaces in AUD.INI so I was wondering if I could have two versions of that, one for each set up?  Or is there another way?

On 6/10/2025 at 5:46 PM, norfolkmastering said:

I just spent some hours testing the MOTU micro lite 5x5 MIDI interface.

I think I got to the bottom of the problems I had with the micro lite.

It doesn't like another MOTU USB MIDI driver being loaded as well as its own (I had the ultralite USB drivers loaded)

That got it up and running reliably.

The next issue was that the MOTU micro lite appears to be outputting all normal MIDI messages (including CCs) in MIDI Running Status mode.  This means that the Status Byte is only transmitted once until there is a change of Status Byte value.  I was amazed to find this on a USB MIDI interface.

So my custom external controllers were not programmed to deal with this and were getting well and truly confused!

I have worked out how to change the controller software to deal with MIDI running status so I guess I will do the work as I like the micro lite and it does work with both Sonar and MIDI-OX  simultaneously.

19 hours ago, Base 57 said:

 

This is what I use. Any computer or tablet on the network can use it simultaneously. There is also a smaller, less expensive model.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/mioXL--iconnectivity-mioxl-usb-midi-interface?_queryID=62523c6bdb19211bc460eaa437e313e9&_index=production_products

I've messaged them to double check whether their MIDI interfaces will do the job for me.

I'm also going to have a look at the new Windows MIDI Services drivers to see if that's a route I should explore.  Does anyone have knowledge or usage of these new drivers?

On 6/8/2025 at 11:33 AM, norfolkmastering said:

I've just ordered a MOTU Micro Lite USB (from Reverb) which seems to use the same MIDI drivers as the ultralite mk3.  I wanted something compact as I'm tight for space.  It is 5x5 which is enough for my needs.  I'll let you know how that goes.

I just spent some hours testing the MOTU micro lite 5x5 MIDI interface.

Although I was able to select ports simultaneously on Sonar and MIDI-OX, operation during dual-client use was not reliable.  Sometime it failed to pass SysEx, sometime it scrambled CCs, just not right.  So I have reverted back to the MIDIs on my multiple MOTU ultralites.  These work reliably under dual-client use.

My search for a 5x5 (or bigger) MIDI interface with true multi-client operation under Windows continues ...

Suggestions welcome!

That's great news Mark, thanks.

I will do some testing of my own but it's really helpful to know that PDC is taken account of in the MTC generation.

I want to use FX on the 'in the box' mix as it's much easier to build the song's sound palette in Sonar before I do much work on the analogue mix.

If Sonar (with FX) didn't stay in sync with the tape machines then I would have to bypass the Sonar FX when adding additional tracks or doing overdubs (which I do in both Sonar and in analogue to the machines at the same time). 

Thanks again.

In my hybrid studio set up I slave locked three tape machines using LTC audio timecode, which is derived from the MTC available from Sonar.  This is working well and the lockup is tight and reliable.

The LTC is recorded on to one track of each machine from the MTC output when Sonar is playing.

When I start adding VST effects to my 'in the box' mix, I guess each Sonar track may have a different amount of PDC applied so that all Sonar track audios stay in time sync.

My question is whether PDC impacts on the MTC output?

So let's assume I had recorded LTC audio timecode on to the three tape machines from Sonar MTC and at that time I had no PDC applied in Sonar.

Now I start to mix in the box and as I add VST effects, then PDC is applied on some Sonar tracks to keep all Sonar tracks in sync.

Does the MTC output from Sonar (to which my tape machines are slave locking) still have the same time  relationship to Sonar tracks as it did before PDC was applied?

If yes, is there a solution to bring the tape machines back into sync?

10 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

The only multi-client interface I'm aware of is the MOTU MIDI Express XT... but I think it's been discontinued.  It's showing as out of stock pretty much everywhere. 

Thomann have agreed to take the MIDIface back so that's a relief.

I've just ordered a MOTU Micro Lite USB (from Reverb) which seems to use the same MIDI drivers as the ultralite mk3.  I wanted something compact as I'm tight for space.  It is 5x5 which is enough for my needs.  I'll let you know how that goes.

13 hours ago, msmcleod said:

Not sure if this will cause more problems than it would solve, but have you tried switching from MME to UWP?

I tried changing Sonar to UWP.  The MIDIface ports are not all recognised and have different names.  I tried to enable a couple of them but I get the error message, 'The device handle is invalid'. 

So I switched back to MME

I also noted that with MID-OX open and MIDIface ports selected in MIDI-OX, Sonar takes a very long time (about 1minute) to boot up (that's of course with no MIDIface ports selected in Sonar).

So I think I need to send the MIDIface back and look for something with non-generic drivers.

The MIDI ports in my Ultralite mk3s don't suffer from any of these issues.  As I said before, I wanted to find another multiport MIDI interface solution before changing over to the MOTU 16As for my audio interfaces (16As sadly have no MIDI ports).

I’ll give it a try.  Looks like UWP might not work with MIDI-OX but I’ll try it on Sonar and see what happens.

Thanks for the suggestion.

56 minutes ago, msmcleod said:

The vast majority of MIDI drivers will only let you open a port once.  It's very rare to find one that will allow more than one application open the same port.

I've always had to use loopMIDI when I've needed to use MIDI-OX, but there's always latency issues.  I've only ever used MIDI-OX for diagnostic purposes however, and not as part of a general setup.

One way around this I guess would be to use a hardware MIDI thru on the output of your device, essentially splitting the signal so you can plugin it into two MIDI input ports.  FWIW standard DIN MIDI input ports are optically isolated,  so you could easily build a simple splitter cable connecting one MIDI out to two MIDI input ports - just don't make your cable too long. 

What you can't do is connect two MIDI outputs to one MIDI input - you'll need to go through a MIDI merge unit for that, otherwise the MIDI messages will be completely garbled.

I must add though - are you definitely plugged into a USB-3 port?  If you're plugged into a USB-2 port, or you're using a USB hub that has USB 2.0 devices also plugged into that, then you WILL see a reduction in performance.
 

Yes I’m using a USB3 port. What brought this drama on is that I’m in the throes of replacing six MOTU ultralites with three MOTU 16As which don’t have MIDI interfaces.  The ultralite MIDIs work just fine but in the move to the 16As I need to find a MIDI interface with at least 5 inputs and 4 outputs which allows both Sonar and MIDI-OX to access the same MIDI input ports.

3 hours ago, msmcleod said:

It depends.

System common / system realtime messages don't have a MIDI channel.

One of the system realtime messages that can be sent by devices is "Active Sensing" - this is usually sent every 300ms or so, and is used to indicate that there is still and active MIDI connection.  Not all devices send this, but some definitely do.

Without seeing the message though, I can only speculate.... I doubt it's the MIDI interface itself though.

I have further more serious problems with the MIDIface 8x8

It uses generic Windows drivers and it will not allow me to access its MIDI input ports from both Sonar and MIDI-OX at the same time.

I tried using  loopMIDI ports to get around the problem.  So I route the the MIDIface input to a virtual loopMIDI port and then access that port in Sonar.

It works but the MIDIface unit is struggling to pass MTC and is causing all sorts of response problems between Sonar and my two external controllers.

My best guess is that the generic Windows drivers are not great and I may need to return the unit and find one that uses custom drivers.

Thoughts on this whole issue would be welcomed.

On 4/11/2023 at 5:56 PM, msmcleod said:

FWIW I used to use the MIDIMan interfaces, but the drivers do not play nicely with Windows 10 any more.

I'm using two MIDITech MIDIFACE 8x8 (one in the studio, one in my office) - they also do a 4x4 version.  It's class compliant, but has no issues with heavy MIDI traffic.

 

I've just bought a MIDIface 8x8 and to test it I cabled each input to its corresponding output.

Then I used MIDI-OX to send CC messages (from a fader) to all eight outputs, then monitored the inputs in MIDI-OX.

I seem to be getting the CC messages okay in all inputs but I'm also getting random other messages which don't have a MIDI channel.  They come up in yellow in the MIDI-OX input monitoring screen.  Are these expected?