Marcello

2 hours ago, Kurre said:

Is it a oscilloscope you need?

https://basicwavez.com/best-free-oscilloscope-vst-plugin/

No I have found one is called bx_meter, it measure the dynamics and tells you if your mix/master is squashed or not

45 minutes ago, John Vere said:

I thought you had the youlean loudness meter?

That doesn't tell you if the overall song dynamic is ok or is flat.

1 hour ago, martsave martin s said:

dont know if this is what you want but Mvmeter2 is free

 

https://www.tbproaudio.de/products/mvmeter2

 

 

No I'm looking for one that measure the dynamic range, it's for mastering mostly.

Hi guys,

anyone knows some free plugin similar to dynameter to mesure the song dynamic?

Or either a way to have dynameter for free?

Even these quite simple plugins are quite pricey, like 80 bucks for a meter?? woo.

8 hours ago, bitflipper said:

No, dither is only necessary when changing bit depth from a higher one to a lower one. (btw, the correct term is bit depth or wordlength; "bitrate" refers to sample rate,  e.g. 44.1KHz vs. 48KHz, and only affects frequency response).

Always prompt reply! Thanks man

1 hour ago, bitflipper said:

Yeh, some people are really good at duplicating a performance. So good that you don't even notice it's double-tracked. David Gilmour was one such performer, both on guitar and vocals. But the overdub will always only be close, never perfect. And that's kind of the idea. Our ears are really good at discerning differences, even when those differences are very small.

As John notes, it's most noticeable on headphones. But beware, many things sound great on headphones but get thin on speakers, where the channels can blend in the air before you hear them. Headphones don't have that crosstalk, and can hide things like phase cancellation.

Years ago I did an experiment. I double-tracked a vocal and then used V-Vocal and AudioSnap to make their pitches and timing match very, very closely. It didn't just kill the double-track effect, it sounded awful. Like it had been recorded in a concrete pipe. To my surprise, I'd gotten the two tracks so similar that they were suffering from comb filtering. Something that can also happen with guitars, especially when you use the same acoustic guitar for two tracks, with the same mic position in the same room.

 

Indeed that’s what I noticed it sounds like one in the center, I’m just gonna rerecord. 

Hi there,

I have recorded at 16 bitrate, I know during master if you recorded at 24 bitrate and then master at 16 bitrate you should use dither.

In my case I have recorded at 16 bit, and I will export my master at 16 bit, so should I use it anyway?

9 hours ago, John Vere said:

Yes I think you are going to get it someday for sure it’s a life long project for me. Best thing I ever did when I started was read a couple of books. One was https://bgaudioclub.org/uploads/docs/Yamaha_Sound_Reinforcement_Handbook_2nd_Edition_Gary_Davis_Ralph_Jones.pdf

The other was 

http://index-of.es/Varios-2/Handbook for Sound Engineers.pdf

Amazing thanks

41 minutes ago, John Vere said:

The OP has started a whole new thread on same topic. Have any of you downloaded and listened and looked at the song in question. If you do you'll see and hear what  is wrong.  This goes way back to a thread by Marcello a while back about panning guitars where he was struggling with that issue. 

There is a lot of real good tips and advice in all of these threads due to answers from a lot of very knowledgeable forum members. He's super lucky to have top quality answers as this is not always the case on the internet.  I'm not too sure he has followed through with much of what has been said or he wouldn't need to start another thread.

Here is my observations of this project. 

 He is using a reference track that is defiantly a casualty of the loudness wars. If you want to join the loudness wars then you better be an experienced fighter. 

The guitars are hard panned and at the 2/3 mark are drowning out all other instruments. 

It's a tricky composition because it has a wide dynamic range over the length of the song. It has a quiet intro and it builds. Bit said way back at the beginning that this was an issue. 

His solution seems to be to keep trying to turn things up instead of ,, ya, we all know this answer all to well. 

Yea I did take advantage of precious advises thanks, indeed I think I improved it a bit. I will keep working on it and try with different references.

Guys I'm wandering, Is it OK to copy the left panned guitar track and paste it on the right in another track?

I have 2 guitars a rithmic one very distorted, and another lead one.

Right now I have one panned on the left and one on the right.

Would be better to have the lead one in the center and the rithmic left and right? 

I was thinking to copy the rithmic guitar track and paste it on the left creating another track, then change the amp sim so they have two different sounds.

It seems to me thought that when you do that is not really separate left and right but it sounds kinda in the center.

Is this good practice or not?

20 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

As far as I'm concerned, dynamics are a good thing, not a problem to be solved  In any event, the explosive drum part will determine how loud your master can be, and as you've found, the only way to change that is to limit the explosive part, which you don't want to do because then the overall volume isn't loud enough compared to your other tracks.

If you're planning to release with a streaming service, then if the other songs are above their target, they'll be turned down to have the same perceived volume as the song with the explosive drums. So it may not end up being an issue anyway.

If not, then you have to resort to workarounds to make the sections with the non-explosive drums sound subjectively louder. One way to do this is to automate EQ on the final mix by just a little bit, around 3.5 to 4 kHz (with a broad Q). Do this only in the parts that are softer, then "fade" it back to normal in the louder parts. The ear is more sensitive to this frequency range, so the music will seem louder. 

You can also try using a transient shaper on the explosive drums to bring down the peaks slightly, without having to use limiting. This may allow raising the overall level by a few dB. 

The real problem is that there will always be a tradeoff between dynamics and how "loud" you can make the music. In recent years, dynamics have been traded off for a louder perceived volume, because you can't have both.

Sorry Craig just to show you

I have compared my master with the reference track I'm using (FLAC version),  I start understanding the problem here, look at the loudest part of the reference track (on TOP) and look at my mastered track (below). This is why is doesn't get loud enough like the reference track, do you see those spikes? peaks? Those are the snare and kick mostly, based on what you see what do you suggest?   I think I have compressed the drums enough, if I push the limiter more the snare basically disappears compared to the rest, it drawns below the other things. 

What would you suggest?

1 hour ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Depends for what you looking? For guitars or vocals? 

 

This one is a must have. Click here.

And these serve different purpose Click here 2 Fuzz plus 3 is my personal favorite.

No I meant some analyzer, nevermind.

I have compared my master with the reference track I'm using (FLAC version),  I start understanding the problem here, look at the loudest part of the reference track (on TOP) and look at my mastered track (below). This is why is doesn't get loud enough like the reference track, do you see those spikes? peaks? Those are the snare and kick mostly, based on what you see what do you suggest?   I think I have compressed the drums enough, if I push the limiter more the snare basically disappears compared to the rest, it drawns below the other things. 

What would you suggest?

9 hours ago, Marcello said:

Bloody hell guys I think I made it I have placed this saturation plugin  with one nob on my drums bus and now it sound much louder without taking too many DBs.  A practical solution also for you if might have the same issue.

https://www.softube.com/saturationknob?gclid=Cj0KCQjw6ZOIBhDdARIsAMf8YyFslTBECLawYGcU2KUyfDKEoeyWgyaNVTXyF18FNm_JwiBh9cmJmEUaAhF5EALw_wcB

Does anyone know any free plugin for distortion listening?

like Soundwaves Reveal plugin but that costs a lot.

You place it in the master bus and it will reveal any distortion caused by the limiter pushed too much, that otherwise you might not hear. For those like me who still have to develop the ears

8 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Good for you! Right attitude you're having with this. Most guy's would have given up by now.

Do you know that this is build into the prochannel? lol.

Shite! I didn't know! indeed I installed it with iLok LOL. I have removed it now and used the one embedded. Thanks

3 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

Bingo! Now you're getting the hang of things. 

But the big question is: How do you understand the K-system? 

Bloody hell guys I think I made it I have placed this saturation plugin  with one nob on my drums bus and now it sound much louder without taking too many DBs.  A practical solution also for you if might have the same issue.

https://www.softube.com/saturationknob?gclid=Cj0KCQjw6ZOIBhDdARIsAMf8YyFslTBECLawYGcU2KUyfDKEoeyWgyaNVTXyF18FNm_JwiBh9cmJmEUaAhF5EALw_wcB

3 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

And I rest my case on what Craig Anderton said. 

I agree with him,  maybe I'm starting to understand now, basically I should work on the mix rather than fixing this on the master.

I should manage to increase the volume of the instruments, like the drums which are peaking, without increasing the DBs.

For instance I placed a limiter on the drums bus, and I increased the threshold and reduced the gain, result: the drums sounds louder but didn't increase in DBs.

But still for me the master is too low, so is there any other plugin I can use for this purpose?  Craig suggested EQ automation, any other? like a saturator maybe? a gain plugin?

4 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

As far as I'm concerned, dynamics are a good thing, not a problem to be solved  In any event, the explosive drum part will determine how loud your master can be, and as you've found, the only way to change that is to limit the explosive part, which you don't want to do because then the overall volume isn't loud enough compared to your other tracks.

If you're planning to release with a streaming service, then if the other songs are above their target, they'll be turned down to have the same perceived volume as the song with the explosive drums. So it may not end up being an issue anyway.

If not, then you have to resort to workarounds to make the sections with the non-explosive drums sound subjectively louder. One way to do this is to automate EQ on the final mix by just a little bit, around 3.5 to 4 kHz (with a broad Q). Do this only in the parts that are softer, then "fade" it back to normal in the louder parts. The ear is more sensitive to this frequency range, so the music will seem louder. 

You can also try using a transient shaper on the explosive drums to bring down the peaks slightly, without having to use limiting. This may allow raising the overall level by a few dB. 

The real problem is that there will always be a tradeoff between dynamics and how "loud" you can make the music. In recent years, dynamics have been traded off for a louder perceived volume, because you can't have both.

Ok thanks for the suggestions.

SO basically I think I have to work on the mix rather than the master trying to use some tools to increase the volume of the drums that's causing the peaks without actually increasing the DBs of the track.

I have used a limiter on my drums bus, but still, is there any other plugin I can use for this purpose? Like a saturator maybe?

2 hours ago, Craig Anderton said:

I didn't see this addressed specifically in the thread, but when a streaming service says its target is -14 LUFS, that doesn't mean your master has to measure -14 LUFS. It can be whatever you want, and the streaming service will turn it down to meet their target LUFS level. Sometimes you want to master "hot" to get a certain character, and that character will be preserved when the song is turned down.

One of the main reasons to meet a streaming services specs is because they often transcode to compressed audio. Meeting their specs will usually guarantee the least amount of distortion and other artifacts when the music is compressed. However, for the best transcoding performance, what's more important than meeting the LUFS spec is meeting the True Peak spec, which is typically -1 or -2 dB.

The best aspect for me about a streaming service's spec is that it means I can master something like an acoustic or jazz album to -14 LUFS, which is a decent amount of dynamic range, and it won't sound super-soft compared to everything else. (BTW some streaming services will turn up music below -14 LUFS, but others don't. So when artistically possible, I make sure a master doesn't go below -14 LUFS.)

The thing is, I'm using a reference track from Mogwai, now I have downloaded a FLAC version of the song, I suppose is the high quality one almost like a WAV.

I compared the volume of this FLAC song with the one on their Spotify, it's exactly the same bloody volume, which is quite high (-6 LUFS integrated), so someone is taking a ***** me here, unless SPotify allows you to pay extra to have -6 LUFS instead of -14

Hi guys I still have a doubt to clarify.

There is a part of my song where the drums are more quiet and then an explosive part where they hit hard.

Since the drums were causing some peaks in the Master (hence I had to change the Master limiter Threshold resulting in the song not being as loud as my reference track but way less), mostly kick and snare, I placed a limiter on the drums bus in the mix.

Now what happened is that the volume of the snare is a bit lower than before in the explosive part and is sitting back in the mix, is not anymore slammed as it was.

Also basically in the quiet part of the song, the snare remained the same volume so quite ok for me, but in the explosive part is actually lower in volume compared to the quiet part!!!

This because the limiter is attenuating the snare transient in the explosive part while keeping it normal in the quiet part, result: a lower volume of the snare in the explosive part which is not good.

Raising the snare volume or increasing the compression won't change much because the limiter is stopping it from peaking.

So I don't know what to do here, if I don't put a limiter on my drums bus my overall volume of the master will not be as loud as my reference track because if I raise the Master Limiter Threshold down to increase the volume the drums transients will cause a gain reduction over 4  or 5 db or even more!

From my understanding in order to have a Loud Master without clipping and distorting, I should place limiters in the mix busses like drums or bass for instance so that the mix will sound louder but maintaining headroom for the master, correct? The problem is that if I use the limiter too much in the drums bus it results in what I just explained, so basically it mess up the song dynamic limiting the snare for instance where it should be slammed and not limiting it where is less slammed, so the snare gets low where is shouldn't be.

It's like a snake biting its tail.  Do I really have to choose between having an enough loud master (same volume lever as most of the songs) but having the snare sitting back in the mix, or having it slammed but the overall song volume is very much less loud compared to the songs out there?

2 hours ago, Will_Kaydo said:

No incorrect. Do more research on the K-System, but before doing another song learn "GAIN STAGING." Once you pickup on it - your mixes will sound better. 

Thanks Will.

I think I improved it a bit but I still have an issue.

There is a part of my song where the drums are more quiet and then an explosive part where it hits hard.

Since the drums were causing some peaks in the master, mostly kick and snare, I placed a limiter on the drums bus in the mix.

Now what happened is that the volume of the snare is a bit lower than before and is sitting back in the mix, is not anymore slammed as it was.

Also basically in the quiet part of the song, the snare remained the same volume so quite ok for me, but in the explosive part is actually lower in volume compared to the quiet part!!!

This because the limiter is attenuating the snare transient in the explosive part while keeping it normal in the quiet part, result: a lower volume of the snare in the explosive part which is not good.

Raising the snare volume or increasing the compression won't change much because the limiter is stopping it from peaking.

So I don't know what to do here, if I don't put a limiter my overall volume of the master will not be as loud as my reference track because if I raise the Master Limiter Threshold down to increase the volume the transients will cause a gain reduction over 4  or 5 db!

From my understanding in order to have a Loud Master without clipping and distorting, I should place limiters in the mix busses like drums or bass for instance so that the mix will sound louder but maintaining headroom for the master, correct? The problem is that if I use the limiter too much in the drums bus it results in what I just explained, so basically it mess up the song dynamic limiting the snare for instance where it should be slammed and not limiting it where is less slammed, so the snare gets low where is shouldn't be.

It's like a snake biting its tail.

35 minutes ago, bdickens said:

Absolutely. If the song is mixed well enough, it practically masters itself.

And if it is recorded well enough, it practically mixes itself.

I am of the firm belief that the more (useful) effort you put into this on the front end, the easier it is for you on the back end.

I agree! indeed I fixed some things in the mix, can you just check last time if I somehow improved the master or is still squashed and harsh??

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S8k5HucMEfrYd7YWw1I8SybC9Yptioim/view?usp=sharing

The problem I had was that I was trying to push the threshold down to increase the overall volume, but the kick, snare and also some cymbals they were causing a big gain reduction, so the transients of those were  not helping to raise the overall volume.

SO in the mix I placed a limiter on the drums bus, and I tried to balance, I had to find a compromise because the more I was limiting the drums the more the snare disappeared compared to the rest, so I increase the snare volume and compression.

Now I have less peaks caused by the kick and snare but still there are if I try to bring the overall volume to match my reference track.

SO I understand I should maybe compress more the drums, or maybe use parallel compression on the master but I'm afraid to compress it too much, I'm still not too confident with compression in general

3 hours ago, bitflipper said:

It's really about dynamic range (the ratio of the quiet parts to the loud parts) and average RMS to peak ratios (crest factor). These things are objectively measurable and  therefore controllable.

How impactful a snare hit is isn't about how high its level is, but how it compares to the audio surrounding it. The short video below illustrates the concept, using a snare drum as an example.

 

 

 

Allright!

On 7/27/2021 at 10:49 PM, bitflipper said:

It's a process. And, on a professional level, a specialty. It can indeed be daunting at first.

Best advice is to get the best-sounding mix you can get without any mastering. Once you're good at mixing, mastering will be much, much easier. A really good mix won't require much finalization other than a volume boost and maybe - maybe - a smidge of EQ.

I agree with you, I'm not a very professional mixing engineer, I'm quite DIY.

ANyway I have realized a couple of problems were in the mix indeed, I exported the mix not leaving enough headroom for the master, so I lowered the mix bus faders and on the drums bus I placed a limiter, which worked pretty well to reduce peaks, even if now the snare is not as loud as it was previously and is sitting a bit back in the mix.

So now the threshold in the master can be raised until -9/-10 dbs without having too much gain reduction, still slightly less loud then my reference track.

If I understand well, the track i s squashed when there is too much gain reduction right? I should keep the gain reduction around -2 db roughly correct?

Thanks, consider drums are midi programmed drums, and I only used a compressor for those to make them punchy, now I placed a limiter on them cause the snare was causing peaks in the master when I was trying to make the song loud by lowering the threshold, and still is, even if now the snare sounds less powerful and the peaks are slightly better.

About  the guitars and the bass, I didn't compress them at all, I have used an amp sim plugin.

Neither the master, I didn't compress it but I have placed a limiter, probably though I pushed the limiter too low to make it sound louder but indeed sounds squashed.

So I think I understood the matter here, my mix was too loud and I didn't leave enough DBs for the master. Now I'm trying to use limiters on drums to make the mix loud without clipping and leaving some headroom for the master.

13 hours ago, mark skinner said:

 It's the difference between the quiet parts of a song and the louder parts of a song. Even if it's just short phrases. Like when a singer gets a little quiet on certain words or when a guitar backs off a little on notes during a run. Nothing should be distorted , even a guitar using distortion. It sounds strange , but I think there is a difference.  If it's just loud everywhere and the waveform is real thick and Flat , it lacks dynamics in most cases . Some people like it ,  I'm not one of them.  I think it is a real Plus to be able to achieve these levels cleanly  but I wouldn't if I could.   I have a volume knob and not afraid to use it.    PS-  I've asked for , and gotten help on Every song I've ever posted here and the other people responding to you have helped me greatly.               mark

ok I see but looking at the reference track waveform I'm using the distorted part looks like that, it's a chunky wave that looks the samme all the time, different is for the quiet part. On the other hand though, I don't want the listener having to stand up to turn down the volume on his stereo once the explosive part starts, i think there shouldn't even be too much dynamics otherwise you force the listener to constantly change the volume on his speakers, smartphone, etc.

This is the Waveform of the reference track I'm using, check it out, is it dynamic for you?